April 2021 Post Exam Wait Period - Welcome to the Suck

[RBHeadge PE]

There were a shocking number of people who didn't sit in the right place. I mean, your damn name is taped to the table. It's not that hard.

That's also not a great sign for their chance of passing.

Ha, thanks for the side note! Last time I checked (maybe a year or two ago??) the plan was for the S.E. to go CBT in either 2024 or 2025. I imagine that might have been extended because of Covid, but have no research to back that up.

I haven't been following the SE conversion schedule closely, but IIRC they kept slipping the year for a little while.
COVID actually accelerated the conversion for the PE exams. Most were accelerated a year. Only the SE stayed the same with a tentative date of 2024.

Necessity is the mother of invention. The uneven and unpredictable lockdowns really incentivized going to CBT sooner than later. There was probably a mixture of need to move faster and the realization that they already had the technological capability to do it. The diminished ability to travel probably helped too. Previously all the meetings were done in person. It meant a couple dozen people from around the county had to coordinate their schedules and travel to the same place. Once they figured out that they could work securely online then they didn't have to deal with the scheduling, logistics, and inconvenience of travel . Without travel days, it would be easier to find volunteers and a workable date to get work done too.

 

[civilrobot PE etc etc]

What?!? YOU were on another BOARD?? Well, I never... *hands on hips*

On topic: Gosh, that's a major oops. They only tell you to empty your pockets like...45 times before the exam starts...wonder if they were actually tryna subvert the exam or just really dumb.

It was reddit. Nothing special. I was shocked to see how many people were telling all of their business and posting actual topics from the exam. It was a mess. I just grabbed my popcorn.

 

[DoctorWho-PE]

It was reddit. Nothing special. I was shocked to see how many people were telling all of their business and posting actual topics from the exam. It was a mess. I just grabbed my popcorn.

Sometimes that is all you can do.

 

[DoctorWho-PE]

Yeah. Like, if someone whose main job was underwater basket weaving, but they had a PE, I'm assuming they'd ethically decide if they were competent or not to stamp something. I would never stamp something structural, but I sure as heck would stamp a remediation report. Would a structural person stamp? Maybe, but I know in one of my companies some of the PEs would defer to others with more experience since you are legally liable for junk.

As for passing the exam...Sometimes. I see people who passed. Who I'd never trust on a jobsite, but less run one, but they have their PE. So. Yeah. ...I don't think of the PE as an indicator of knowledge/competency, I believe your playbook of experience/published documents/current work is more important.

Right? I used to work with "that guy". I mean, he is super smart, and he knows the engineering, but would i trust him to competently put together a set of documents.... ehhhhhhh, not so much. Yet he passed the PE first try, and even day one of the SE first try.

 

[FlangeheadPEAZ]

I’m glad to hear WRE gets a little harder. I’ve heard too many times that it is the easiest PE exam for civil engineers. I know people who took this exam just because it is “the easiest one”, they said, even though it is not related to their daily work at all. I feel very upset when someone considering him/herself a structural guy/girl takes PE exam in WRE (because it is easier) and gets the same letters I do to, eventually, perform structural work.

I don't think they would be able to sign any structural drawings with the WRE PE anyways? right?

 

[DoctorWho-PE]

I don't think they would be able to sign any structural drawings with the WRE PE anyways? right?

Once you pass, nobody (or, at least in most states) checks what your discipline is. So, you COULD, but ethically the question is, SHOULD you? I mean, I could technically do electrical design, but SHOULD I? Hell no I'm not taking on that liability.

 

[squaretaper LIT AF PE]

I'd prefer not. The suck thread is for stressful stuff. The spam thread is about blowing off steam and having fun.

For the record, was only kidding! I wouldn't dare.

 

[RBHeadge PE]

Ditto for NY. You could bring your phone into the exam, because it's frickin' NY, but before the exam started they requested phones. ...

Iowa is the same. They ask as you walk in if you have any phones or smart devices, then again before they start. There is truly no excuse to still have it on you during the exam.

That just makes it worse. If the examinee has a set opportunity to get legal and they still ignore, then they fully get what's coming next.
I remember one guy's phone went off during the exam. And I was thinking "that was a $300 phone call and a waste of six months of studying".

This is why I think introduction of SE for delegated structures throughout the states is very important. There should be a separation between all civil PE disciplines and structural design of delegated structures.

I'm curious how this gets handled on a State by State basis. IIRC in Maryland an architect can stamp things three stories or less. An engineer is required for more than three stories. An engineer can also do things three or less stories. But when is a SE required? I know Maryalnd licenses SEs. Surely they're required for skyscrapers and certain bridges. But I don't know the cut off. I think SEs (not just PEs) are needed when structual changes are required to residences. But it's not clear that they have to be involved in the initial construction. Yeah, I'm confused.

To be clear, I don't need to know the delineation of responsibilities. My line of work doesn't go anywhere near construction or structures. And while I technically have a masters in Civil Engr*, there's no chance I'd even think about possibly considering stamping anything remotely civil. *It's really an Envr Engr degree.

I mean, easier is subjective to everyone, and taking the Civil-WRE still requires you to know all the other civil subjects. Just because you take/pass a PE in one subject also doesn't mean you'll be acting as an engineer in that field your whole career (I know NY does not care what you got your PE in, because ethically you wouldn't be stamping something you didn't agree to).
...
I feel like getting that initial "PE" doesn't mean it's easier because you're going to have to take the specific exams as well (to be taken seriously) and if you do stamp as PE for structural even if your exam was in WRE...so what? All the exams are hard. It's only easier if you studied adequately for it (maybe) and ethically as an engineer you should only be stamping something if you agree with it and are okay with being liable for it.

That's the big point, right? When you get your license, you are saying that you are competent in the field in which you are sealing things.

Totally agreeing with @vhab49_PE here. I'm not stamping anything that I'm not fully competent in. Maryland does a general PE license. I tested nuclear, but I have degrees and/or experience in a few other disciplines as well. There are some nuclear projects I wouldn't feel comfortable stamping because I lack proficiency in that specific area. But OTOH there are some limited mechanical, aerospace, and environmental projects that I'd have no problem with stamping because I've got lots of training and experience in working those problems.

Yeah. Like, if someone whose main job was underwater basket weaving, but they had a PE, I'm assuming they'd ethically decide if they were competent or not to stamp something.

As for passing the exam...Sometimes. I see people who passed. Who I'd never trust on a jobsite, but less run one, but they have their PE.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

If you think about it, do you feel that 75% of the structural engineers in this country are not competent? For the SE with a pass rate between 25-35%, is that TRULY indicative of the knowledge of our engineers? I like to think not.

I've never understood that either. The pass rate is way too low in practice. I understand the need to be thorough given the liability involved, but there's liability in lots of other disciplines too. it's not like SEs are this tiny ELITE of the total engineer population whereby the exam is used as an honorific. Civils and Structural are very common and they're the types of engineers that the general public are most likely to interact with. The pass rate implies to the general public that 3/4's aren't competent to do their own job. That's certainly not the case. It's not a great look for the field.

And I'll throw in the dig the the SE license isn't reflected in pay stub either. A license that difficult to obtain should be reflected in the charged rate. Simple supply vs demand. Something is definitely broken with the whole situation.

 

[JayKay PE]

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Please get off my jobsite, sir. Open toed, steel-toed sandals are not a thing.

 

[squaretaper LIT AF PE]

Please get off my jobsite, sir. Open toed, steel-toed sandals are not a thing.

Are you required to wear steel-toed boots if, say, you don't have toes?

 

[JayKay PE]

Are you required to wear steel-toed boots if, say, you don't have toes?

No toes = you must have hooves.

Maybe this is racist, but I don't trust ungulates on a construction site.

 

[Reverse Polish]

I'm curious how this gets handled on a State by State basis. IIRC in Maryland an architect can stamp things three stories or less. An engineer is required for more than three stories. An engineer can also do things three or less stories. But when is a SE required? I know Maryalnd licenses SEs. Surely they're required for skyscrapers and certain bridges. But I don't know the cut off. I think SEs (not just PEs) are needed when structual changes are required to residences. But it's not clear that they have to be involved in the initial construction. Yeah, I'm confused.

To be clear, I don't need to know the delineation of responsibilities. My line of work doesn't go anywhere near construction or structures. And while I technically have a masters in Civil Engr*, there's no chance I'd even think about possibly considering stamping anything remotely civil. *It's really an Envr Engr degree.

I've never understood that either. The pass rate is way too low in practice. I understand the need to be thorough given the liability involved, but there's liability in lots of other disciplines too. it's not like SEs are this tiny ELITE of the total engineer population whereby the exam is used as an honorific. Civils and Structural are very common and they're the types of engineers that the general public are most likely to interact with. The pass rate implies to the general public that 3/4's aren't competent to do their own job. That's certainly not the case. It's not a great look for the field.

And I'll throw in the dig the the SE license isn't reflected in pay stub either. A license that difficult to obtain should be reflected in the charged rate. Simple supply vs demand. Something is definitely broken with the whole situation.

I think you inadvertently make a case for SE licensure (which Maryland does not have). There are plenty of well-documented incidents where licensed Professional Engineers have caused major problems in structural design--including injury and death--because they don't know what they don't know. That's not to say that all PE's practicing structural engineering are incompetent, but I can tell you from experience that structural engineering is a profession that takes years--if not decades--to learn enough to be comfortable sleeping at night. Even then, I've known engineers with four decades of experience to have night sweats. I have also personally encountered many a licensed PE practicing structural who I would not trust one bit to seal structural drawings--including my younger self.

The running "joke" is that, if a mechanical engineer screws up, the building might be too hot or too cold; but if the structural engineer screws up, people get hurt. In many cases, the structural engineer won't even realize he has made a mistake, depending on the scope of his knowledge and experience. That SE exam might be a bear, but damn if it doesn't adequately cover the tremendous scope of material in which a practicing structural engineer needs literacy. Frankly, if you can't master the fundamentals of seismic design (as one example), you have no business sealing drawings for a complex structure. The PE exam is difficult, but with some years of hindsight...the PE Civil: Structural is very rudimentary in nature. The SE exam is orders of magnitude more difficult--a more complete exam, if you will--and properly so. Just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

The general public doesn't really understand what it is we do, and they care even less about licensure. The only time the general public pays any attention to structural engineers is when something goes horribly wrong, at which point, everyone becomes an expert.

 

[civilrobot PE etc etc]

I'd prefer not. The suck thread is for stressful stuff. The spam thread is about blowing off steam and having fun.




There's always that one person who comes in completely unprepared. They probably sailed through the FE and thought that the PE would be no different.
The shear amount of materials people bring amazes me. I get that some disciplines require more references but there *has* to be a practical upper limit.
If you're wasting a lot of time frantically leafing through multiple books for every problem then you probably aren't having a good day.
I've heard that, on the whole, the people who pass usually have less references than those that fail. It makes some sense since the better prepared know where to look for the information faster and may not bring the extraneous stuff. The second time I took it, I brought in two milkcrates of references. Things were sorted in a set way and I never even touched the second milk crate. In retrospect I probably could have done it with only 8 references.

Certainly a minimum number of references are needed too. First time I took it, there was another nukee in the room. He had two references: Lamarsh and the ANS study guide. I'm pretty sure he passed.

1. Sorry for spamming the thread

2. It doesn't mean anything yet, but this time around I didn't use my resources as much as I thought I would. I used my EET binders, a couple of practice problems, one NCEES practice problem, and references for look up questions. That's it. I had a lot of references and books with me, but I think it was like having a security blanket. Just made me feel better. I definitely spent more time searching through everything during my first attempt.

 

[civilrobot PE etc etc]

Yeah. Like, if someone whose main job was underwater basket weaving, but they had a PE, I'm assuming they'd ethically decide if they were competent or not to stamp something. I would never stamp something structural, but I sure as heck would stamp a remediation report. Would a structural person stamp? Maybe, but I know in one of my companies some of the PEs would defer to others with more experience since you are legally liable for junk.

As for passing the exam...Sometimes. I see people who passed. Who I'd never trust on a jobsite, but less run one, but they have their PE. So. Yeah. ...I don't think of the PE as an indicator of knowledge/competency, I believe your playbook of experience/published documents/current work is more important.

You can say that again!

I've taken this exam twice. I also have nearly 20 years of experience. I've never designed anything. Most of the PEs I work with have done VERY little design. This exam isn't indicative of being some sort of master. It's a barrier of entry to being recognized as someone who will ethically and competently make decisions about engineering related topics. You learn how to be good at what you do while doing the work. Filling in a bubble on a test for the right number of dump trucks to move some soil doesn't mean you know everything about engineering.

 

[civilrobot PE etc etc]

Nobody:

civilrobot: Glad you asked! The pencils were pink! I have two. I was struggling with my pencil and a proctor gave me another one.

 

[RBHeadge PE]

I think you inadvertently make a case for SE licensure (which Maryland does not have).

It looks like you may be right. I don't see it on the Maryland board website. I should probably re-phrase my earlier statement that I've seen firsthand people taking the SE exams in Maryland at the same time/place as the PE exams. I just assumed the Maryland licensed SEs too. It all kind of just emphasizes how little I not about the discipline and my overall confusion.

1. Sorry for spamming the thread

no worries! In a month when we're on page 76 no one will notice or care

2. It doesn't mean anything yet, but this time around I didn't use my resources as much as I thought I would. I used my EET binders, a couple of practice problems, one NCEES practice problem, and references for look up questions. That's it. I had a lot of references and books with me, but I think it was like having a security blanket. Just made me feel better. I definitely spent more time searching through everything during my first attempt.

It's reads to me like things went well this last attempt.

Please get off my jobsite, sir. Open toed, steel-toed sandals are not a thing.

Nobody:

civilrobot: Glad you asked! The pencils were pink! I have two. I was struggling with my pencil and a proctor gave me another one.

pics or it didn't happen.

I almost forgot about the pencil color thing. I'm so used to someone rushing to post pictures in the pencil thread and it coming up in the new posts.

 

[DoctorWho-PE]

It looks like you may be right. I don't see it on the Maryland board website. I should probably re-phrase my earlier statement that I've seen firsthand people taking the SE exams in Maryland at the same time/place as the PE exams. I just assumed the Maryland licensed SEs too. It all kind of just emphasizes how little I not about the discipline and my overall confusion.


no worries! In a month when we're on page 76 no one will notice or care

It's reads to me like things went well this last attempt.

pics or it didn't happen.

I almost forgot about the pencil color thing. I'm so used to someone rushing to post pictures in the pencil thread and it coming up in the new posts.

It may be that Maryland will accept passing the SE to grant a PE. (Iowa does this, but does not offer the SE license) I COULD go to Illinois, but that would mean going into Chicago, and I don't want to deal with that mess. I'll just deal with the Illinois paperwork mess when I pass.

 

[Tiger15]

The shear amount of materials people bring amazes me. I get that some disciplines require more references but there *has* to be a practical upper limit.
If you're wasting a lot of time frantically leafing through multiple books for every problem then you probably aren't having a good day.
I've heard that, on the whole, the people who pass usually have less references than those that fail. It makes some sense since the better prepared know where to look for the information faster and may not bring the extraneous stuff. The second time I took it, I brought in two milkcrates of references. Things were sorted in a set way and I never even touched the second milk crate. In retrospect I probably could have done it with only 8 references.

Yeah I brought probably 10 books but only used 3, plus my class notes.

 

[Reverse Polish]

It looks like you may be right. I don't see it on the Maryland board website. I should probably re-phrase my earlier statement that I've seen firsthand people taking the SE exams in Maryland at the same time/place as the PE exams. I just assumed the Maryland licensed SEs too. It all kind of just emphasizes how little I not about the discipline and my overall confusion.

No worries. I think 49 states + DC offer the SE exam, but only 9 have actual SE licensure (several additional states have an SE designation, but not a separate license). I took the exam because the structural design codes have become more complex over the past 20 years, and I foresee a general trend toward SE licensure over the next several decades. A big part of this is an increased knowledge of seismic design following major earthquakes in 1989 (Loma Prieta) and 1994 (Northridge). ASCE 7 (Minimum Design Loads for Buildings and Other Structures) has gone from a magazine to a two-volume set in that time, and there are a shocking amount of engineers in low-seismic areas who aren't aware that they still need to meet certain seismic design and detailing requirements.

I'm also surprised at how many references some people bring into the exams. The Civil PE with Structural Depth and the 16-hour SE exam already require a ton of references, but I've seen people bring in outdated codes, new codes that are not the basis of the exam, textbooks galore, specialty review books (like those available from PPI) and binders-upon-binders of review course notes. It's just a lot more material to organize. This is just me, but some of the codes are cumbersome enough to wade through. I don't need to multiply that complexity by a factor of 3 or 4 just to get the same answer.

 

[Be-n]

I don't think they would be able to sign any structural drawings with the WRE PE anyways? right?

I don’t even think there is a public record of what discipline your PE is in. In my state, it just says PE (civil) when you look up for someone’s license. So, I don’t think a client can even check what discipline his engineer was licensed in originally. It is all based on ethics.... But, I guess that was not my original point. Retraining to do a different discipline is possible. I can see myself learning to do geotechnical or WRE. The point was that I have noticed that some people take WRE exam even though have no life experience in it just because it is easier, they say. Hearing that WRE was pretty hard this time makes me think that maybe those folks won’t say that it is easier than other exams anymore. But their opinion is most likely based only on statistics and opinion of other engineers. I think the exam that requires 3-5 references to pass should be a bit easier that the exam that requires a small wagon of references