SE Exam Oct 2019 Result

[mikesltj23]

I think you are in a good position. Either way it turns out you are at peace to move on 

I'm rooting for you of course!

Thanks, Stardust!

 

[leggo PE]

Leggo you may be in the last round of paper exams .... Maybe at that point consider just waiting for the transition to computer.

Nah, I looked up the schedule for conversion yesterday, and the SE isn't getting converted until some time in 2024... I wouldn't want to wait three more years.

 

[Titleistguy]

Not sure I'm a fan of ending godfathering for the same reasons we don't make doctors retake boards, lawyers retake the bar and so on.  We have continuing education requirements and other ways to make sure the playing field stays somewhat level.  And frankly I'm ok with the subject matter experts determining the competency requirement as opposed to the practicing professionals....who with all due respect likely go back to their one or two silos of comfort zone and never look back at all the other stuff on the test.

Should we all retake college classes if ABET ever decided to tweak the engineering programs at all of our respective colleges?  You see where this is going.  Should we have to retake our driver's test if the state driving laws change?  

Things like minimum competency are a function of the industry standard and requirements therof at the time said competency was proven.  You can't retroactively declare someone not competent in a field if they've already met that fields requirements.  Now I'll qualify this by saying you can't do this without good reason.  Now say you get sued for negligence and lose your licence or something that's different.

Yes it absolutely sucks that it's seems like the bar is getting higher and people are getting boned by test requirements but there is no reasonable way to retroactively requalify an entire class of people bc were angry the test is hard.  But I don't see it as previous generations screwing younger ones ... I see it more like... hey we know more now and therefore codes have become more complex then they once were...

Maybe 100 years ago an SE only needed to know that moments seem to redistribute but wasn't required to know how, then Hardy Cross said hold my beer ....and now we all have to know moment distribution.  (Obviously a made up example).  But you get the point.  

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

I agree with this for the morning. The time it takes just to physically move from 1 code to the next would probably add up to someone having enough time to work an extra question or 2.  Shouldn't have to be that way. 

As far as making the exam "easier", I'm not sure that's the best approach, speaking as someone who has already passed it.  But make the exam more about engineering as opposed to a race against the clock should be there focus.  Maybe when they make the switch to a computer based exam this will be the case. 

I'm hopeful that the pass rates this time around will be better.  Comments I have seen so far seem to show that the exam wasn't so far "out there" this time around. 

I'm going to recuse myself from being the ASSFACE spokesperson though. 

As a multiple lateral taker, I do not want the exam to be easier. I don't think anyone necessarily wants it to be "easier." I do believe that almost everyone believes bridge design is a separate field than building design and neither should be included in either fields exam. I know I had never opened an AASHTO prior to these exams. What I want, from the bottom of my heart, is for the our licensure examination (be that PE or SE) to be representative of the work done so that engineers aren't held back their career due to superfluous information that has no practical use in their specific practice.  Maybe the exam should be broken into additional components to include: Gravity and Incidental lateral, vibrational analysis and rhythmic excitation, wind design, low seismic analysis, and high seismic analysis and computer methods.

I am also quite disappointed you have rejected the honorable and esteemed position of ASSFACE representative. SHAME!

 

[Titleistguy]

The AASHTO stuff is certainly annoying for building folks but in a way it's a necessary evil.  We have to take transportation, and environmental and geotechnical to get a civil engineering degree despite only practicing Structural correct?  Couldn't someone argue the same goes for an SE?  I'll certainly never open AASHTO again after the last morning bridge question of the last test that finally gets me over this hump but so be it.  I haven't opened my environmental book in 18 years either.  But I'm probably in some small way a better Engineer for having taken that class just like we'll all be better SEs for having to learn our ways around a new code.  I don't like the bridge stuff but it's part of the structural umbrella like it or not ... In fact most non engineers when I say I'm a structural engineer the first thing they say is ...oh wow cool like bridges and stuff?  To which I politely laugh and say well more of the and stuff but yea.   

I think bridge stuff is annoying but how hard is it really?  In AASHTOs own way there is a certain elegance to having one self contained document that pretty much covers everything... Unlike the NDS ... Lol.  

I could go on.  A classically trained chef who makes American style food for a living still had to learn French cooking at some point... And they're better for it.  

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

Not sure I'm a fan of ending godfathering for the same reasons we don't make doctors retake boards, lawyers retake the bar and so on.  We have continuing education requirements and other ways to make sure the playing field stays somewhat level.  And frankly I'm ok with the subject matter experts determining the competency requirement as opposed to the practicing professionals....who with all due respect likely go back to their one or two silos of comfort zone and never look back at all the other stuff on the test.

Should we all retake college classes if ABET ever decided to tweak the engineering programs at all of our respective colleges?  You see where this is going.  Should we have to retake our driver's test if the state driving laws change?  

Things like minimum competency are a function of the industry standard and requirements therof at the time said competency was proven.  You can't retroactively declare someone not competent in a field if they've already met that fields requirements.  Now I'll qualify this by saying you can't do this without good reason.  Now say you get sued for negligence and lose your licence or something that's different.

Yes it absolutely sucks that it's seems like the bar is getting higher and people are getting boned by test requirements but there is no reasonable way to retroactively requalify an entire class of people bc were angry the test is hard.  But I don't see it as previous generations screwing younger ones ... I see it more like... hey we know more now and therefore codes have become more complex then they once were...

Maybe 100 years ago an SE only needed to know that moments seem to redistribute but wasn't required to know how, then Hardy Cross said hold my beer ....and now we all have to know moment distribution.  (Obviously a made up example).  But you get the point.  

That's not the point. The point is engineering boards are applying more difficult requirements to new licensees. If the requirements are higher for some than others, please explain to me how in the Holy **** that is fair? It's like I'm in the military again and some girl does 44 pushups and scores 100, yet I do 80 and get a 97 then she gets promoted over me because her "qualifying scores" are higher regardless of the fact that I am clearly more capable... GRRRR!

I'll say it again, if there are legitimate changes that need to be made for technology or safety's sake, then everyone should have to prove competency in those areas or they should no longer be practicing. I wouldn't want a surgeon cutting in my brain with experimental techniques he had never proven competency in and neither would you. Regulations along these guidelines are the only way to keep ******** from artificially limiting the industry licensees by requiring higher/more difficult qualifications. It would be a better system all the way around because changes would only be made when they are actually NEEDED, not when Captain ******* wants to make more money at others expense.

 

[bigirishman]

Not sure I'm a fan of ending godfathering for the same reasons we don't make doctors retake boards, lawyers retake the bar and so on.

Doctors are required retake boards every 7-10 years depending on the state.  Specialist have to get re certified every 2-3 years.  Not suggesting that's the best path for engineers, but makes sense in a field like medicine that changes drastically (and has huge consequences for being out of step).

Personally I've always viewed these tests as NCEES testing your ability to learn (or relearn) things in a short time period and be able to regurgitate it on an exam.  Engineering in my experience places a massive emphases on learning throughout your career.  So in prepping for the SE I needed to learn a lot about lateral building design, despite spending my entire career (and likely the rest of my career) in the bridge world.  Was it important?  Not for my day-to-day.  Heck the joke about the bridge lateral is most of the states that require the SE require displacement based seismic design anyway, so the entire afternoon isn't even all that applicable.  But the ability to learn that stuff and prove you've learned it?  That's the important part.  I've been thrown a bunch of wacky stuff in my career, and being able to dig out the books and look for research was what really made the difference.  Sticking in your wheelhouse?  That's easy, show me you can adapt.

 

[Titleistguy]

Doctors are required retake boards every 7-10 years depending on the state.  Specialist have to get re certified every 2-3 years.  Not suggesting that's the best path for engineers, but makes sense in a field like medicine that changes drastically (and has huge consequences for being out of step).

Personally I've always viewed these tests as NCEES testing your ability to learn (or relearn) things in a short time period and be able to regurgitate it on an exam.  Engineering in my experience places a massive emphases on learning throughout your career.  So in prepping for the SE I needed to learn a lot about lateral building design, despite spending my entire career (and likely the rest of my career) in the bridge world.  Was it important?  Not for my day-to-day.  Heck the joke about the bridge lateral is most of the states that require the SE require displacement based seismic design anyway, so the entire afternoon isn't even all that applicable.  But the ability to learn that stuff and prove you've learned it?  That's the important part.  I've been thrown a bunch of wacky stuff in my career, and being able to dig out the books and look for research was what really made the difference.  Sticking in your wheelhouse?  That's easy, show me you can adapt.

Which is my whole point in this thread ... Basically the test is in part forces us to become familiar with certain aspects that aren't in our regular work and I'm cool with that.  Some folks here don't seem to be.  

As far as doctors and retaking boards ... That's good to know but my point still stands. 

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

The AASHTO stuff is certainly annoying for building folks but in a way it's a necessary evil.  We have to take transportation, and environmental and geotechnical to get a civil engineering degree despite only practicing Structural correct?  Couldn't someone argue the same goes for an SE?  I'll certainly never open AASHTO again after the last morning bridge question of the last test that finally gets me over this hump but so be it.  I haven't opened my environmental book in 18 years either.  But I'm probably in some small way a better Engineer for having taken that class just like we'll all be better SEs for having to learn our ways around a new code.  I don't like the bridge stuff but it's part of the structural umbrella like it or not ... In fact most non engineers when I say I'm a structural engineer the first thing they say is ...oh wow cool like bridges and stuff?  To which I politely laugh and say well more of the and stuff but yea.   

I think bridge stuff is annoying but how hard is it really?  In AASHTOs own way there is a certain elegance to having one self contained document that pretty much covers everything... Unlike the NDS ... Lol.  

I could go on.  A classically trained chef who makes American style food for a living still had to learn French cooking at some point... And they're better for it.  

You are speaking from an entirely different side of things than I am. Ask me how many vertical curves I've designed and I'll tell you zero every time from now until infinity. Absolutely useless material for me. Yeah, we had to take all of that in college, great. Same for AASHTO. Now let me make my point about GA again, because I really don't care about other states. GA is the focus of 120% of my current hatred. All the courses we were educated on in college are on the PE exam, yet the GA board in their infinitesimal wisdom completely disregards that exam now. I'll give you a good analogy (they are fun and I like them). As a driver of a standard vehicle weighing less than say 15000 lbs, you only need a regular Class C drivers license. Now lets say El Senor Assholio gets elected as governor and passes a bill stating "Everyone under the age of 40 must now have a Commercial Driver's License (CDL) to drive any vehicle (even bicycles are considered vehicles)." As an aside, the sole reason Mr. Assholio did this was because he didn't like traffic. Now people who were perfectly fine above average drivers can no longer drive to work. Worse yet, many poor individuals don't know anything about the commercial driver's license exam and they have literally nobody to ask as all of their coworkers and friends only had Class C licenses. Sure there are some truck and bus drivers out there that know the material and can teach you for a few thousand bucks, but finding the time and money while raising a family and working your *** off is a stretch on the budget and the sanity. Anyway, you decide to just man up and study for the exam so you get on the DOT website and order a practice test and bust your *** studying it. You walk into the exam thinking "It's on like Donkey Kong." You open the exam up and NONE of the problems are even vaguely familiar to the practice exam that you purchased from the organization offering the exam. Further, several of the questions are obtusely worded so that you would swear some of them have multiple correct answers. You walk out knowing you failed. You are now uberpissed. You want to go punch Mr. Assholio right smack in the daddy button. You finally calm down and decide to wait for the exam results as you tell yourself, "I'll see where I need to improve and try this again!" Some semblance of your pride, self reliance, and happiness returns after this realization. You wait three months for the results to come back while eagerly anticipating the diagnostic report. When the diagnostic report returns, it says you made a 23/40 and gives you some ****** bar chart saying you need to study commercial driving more. You look at it the diagnostic report and think "WTH." What part of "commercial driving" do I need to study. Is it turning? Is it lane changes? Is it street signs or hazardous materials? You start to think about how you've driven for 20+ years just fine and don't use any of this ****. Why would you, you've never driven a damn 18 wheeler or bus in your life and never intend to. Hatred and bitterness for Mr. Assholio begins to eat away at you from the inside like a worm in an apple. You check back on the DOT's website to register for the next administration of the exam. They state that all of their regulatory requirement booklets and papers are going to update for the next test. They cost another $2000.00 for them and another $500.00 just to sit for the test. About this time, you get hired to be a "ride along" in Mr. Assholio's car as sometimes he needs a mechanic and you happen to know a little about that. You start watching Mr. Assholio and realize he's a really **** driver but exempted himself from the CDL requirement. The injustice drains down your throat like a sinus infection, gagging you into disgust and sickness.

This is pretty much my experience. Maybe it makes sense, maybe it doesn't. Either way, I think the SE exam is ******** for at least 43 of the 50 states and it certainly shouldn't be required in states that do NOT have high seismic design. FTW. Anarchy and Chaos shall reign supreme.

 

[Duke]

Wow, that was a "ride", well done.

 

[Titleistguy]

Well. Ok.  That's one way to feel about the whole thing.  Can't say I completely understand everyone's plight as I'm only familiar with my states laws and practices.  

I know this, I thought the test was somewhere between fair and hard.  And the parts that were hard I don't blame the test ...  or the NCEES ... Or the writers or the industry or the laws in my state ... no, instead, I just look in the mirror and say what do I need to be better at. 

So what if a question is worded vaguely,  here's the solution, be stronger on everything else so that if you guess and are wrong on a vague question then it won't hurt you.   And let the process work .... If a question is in fact poorly written or whatever then the NCEES will drop it or allow multiple correct answers.  If they don't do that then maybe the problem isn't the question.

I'm not sure why people are shocked when an actual test is harder than the practice sent.  I think back to the kids in class I'd see in undergrad that badger the professor for the actual questions on a test.... Whats with the spoon-feeding?  It's a test, by definition you'll be tested.  It's not a "did you remember the exact versions of these questions but with different numbers exercise".

I hope for the best for everyone here bc I know how hard we all worked and we've all sacrificed and suffered... Some probably more than others , which may not be fair but, I'm sorry to say, life isn't fair, processes aren't perfect, and sometimes good work and good faith goes unrewarded.  But you can either feel sorry for yourself and get mad and all that ... Or you can simply take a breath and give it another shot.  And if you miss your window, or never manage to pass ... I say to you there is absolutely ZERO shame in not passing this test. If you gave it your best shot and came up short that's ok, you're still a better Engineer for it.

 

[Nathan55]

Well. Ok.  That's one way to feel about the whole thing.  Can't say I completely understand everyone's plight as I'm only familiar with my states laws and practices.  

I know this, I thought the test was somewhere between fair and hard.  And the parts that were hard I don't blame the test ...  or the NCEES ... Or the writers or the industry or the laws in my state ... no, instead, I just look in the mirror and say what do I need to be better at. 

So what if a question is worded vaguely,  here's the solution, be stronger on everything else so that if you guess and are wrong on a vague question then it won't hurt you.   And let the process work .... If a question is in fact poorly written or whatever then the NCEES will drop it or allow multiple correct answers.  If they don't do that then maybe the problem isn't the question.

I'm not sure why people are shocked when an actual test is harder than the practice sent.  I think back to the kids in class I'd see in undergrad that badger the professor for the actual questions on a test.... Whats with the spoon-feeding?  It's a test, by definition you'll be tested.  It's not a "did you remember the exact versions of these questions but with different numbers exercise".

I hope for the best for everyone here bc I know how hard we all worked and we've all sacrificed and suffered... Some probably more than others , which may not be fair but, I'm sorry to say, life isn't fair, processes aren't perfect, and sometimes good work and good faith goes unrewarded.  But you can either feel sorry for yourself and get mad and all that ... Or you can simply take a breath and give it another shot.  And if you miss your window, or never manage to pass ... I say to you there is absolutely ZERO shame in not passing this test. If you gave it your best shot and came up short that's ok, you're still a better Engineer for it.

Do you work for NCEES? haha....

Generally I'd just say that the complaint about not knowing where to improve is valid in my view. I definitely don't think the test is obscenely difficult, or unfair per se. It's the time crunch, and the fact that you can repeat your mistakes (since you'll never know what your mistakes actually are). I learned relatively quickly to ignore the practice tests. I consider the SE exam like warfare--no plan survives contact with enemy. People erroneously expect NCEES to play fair, or be nice or worse yet, WANT you to pass. They don't. It'd be like Apple making a perfect iphone that you never need to replace. NCEES is not interesting in you passing the exam, full stop. You have to walk in, expect the unexpected, plan for that "oh crap I don't know what to moment" and just not make silly mistakes. Speed, accuracy, and completeness.

One thing I'll say is that the grind has taught me a LOT after passing the PE with little to no studying. I almost distrust pure PEs based off how little I knew when I passed it.  

 

[Titleistguy]

I couldn't agree more with the PE statement... I one shot that test and was shocked at how easy it was.  The FE was harder.

Lol and no I don't work at ncees, I just think people are too quick to blame the test or organization or whatever.  Look in the mirror.

Not knowing what to work on ...I have a hard time believing that people don't know what they are good at and what they're only maybe ok at vs what they're not good at... If we're being honest that is.

For example ... here is where I rate myself on stuff, 1 being no good, 2.5 being average and hopefully get lucky on the test im not asked certain things and 5/5 don't need to review.  

Steel 5/5

Concrete 2.5 / 5 -- understand and can design elements, terrible with code and detailing requirements

Wood 4/5 -- could maybe use a bit more time in SDPWS but generally very solid

Masonry, 3.5/5 -- could use some more practice with non ASD design 

Bridge, 1.5/5 -- Need some work here obviously, would only wanna get to 2/5 for test requirements

Analysis 3.5/5 -- solid, but could use more practice with the indeterminate problems bc frankly I don't do much hand analysis, but influence lines, and basic application of FBD and equilibrium equations ... Solid.

Load generation 4/5 -- would like to be faster with wind, and some of the chapter 15 asce 7 , seismic stuff for non buildings.

And not shockingly where I struggled on the test was any area that I'd rate myself below a 4 in.  I know my weak spots as I'm sure everyone on here does.  And we get general areas to study as part of our feedback anyways.

Over two days we did 80MC and 8 essays, the only ones I remember are the ones that targeted a weak spot, and as such I've already started to review and refresh that stuff.  

What else can we do?  Knowing the exact reason you got a certain question wrong really doesn't matter anyways bc you're likely not going to see the same question again. 

 

[STR_BR]

I couldn't agree more with the PE statement... I one shot that test and was shocked at how easy it was.  The FE was harder.

Lol and no I don't work at ncees, I just think people are too quick to blame the test or organization or whatever.  Look in the mirror.

Not knowing what to work on ...I have a hard time believing that people don't know what they are good at and what they're only maybe ok at vs what they're not good at... If we're being honest that is.

For example ... here is where I rate myself on stuff, 1 being no good, 2.5 being average and hopefully get lucky on the test im not asked certain things and 5/5 don't need to review.  

Steel 5/5

Concrete 2.5 / 5 -- understand and can design elements, terrible with code and detailing requirements

Wood 4/5 -- could maybe use a bit more time in SDPWS but generally very solid

Masonry, 3.5/5 -- could use some more practice with non ASD design 

Bridge, 1.5/5 -- Need some work here obviously, would only wanna get to 2/5 for test requirements

Analysis 3.5/5 -- solid, but could use more practice with the indeterminate problems bc frankly I don't do much hand analysis, but influence lines, and basic application of FBD and equilibrium equations ... Solid.

Load generation 4/5 -- would like to be faster with wind, and some of the chapter 15 asce 7 , seismic stuff for non buildings.

And not shockingly where I struggled on the test was any area that I'd rate myself below a 4 in.  I know my weak spots as I'm sure everyone on here does.  And we get general areas to study as part of our feedback anyways.

Over two days we did 80MC and 8 essays, the only ones I remember are the ones that targeted a weak spot, and as such I've already started to review and refresh that stuff.  

What else can we do?  Knowing the exact reason you got a certain question wrong really doesn't matter anyways bc you're likely not going to see the same question again. 

I agree with Titleistguy. The questions I remember from the test today are the ones I was not certain about, which prompts me to work harder on, as it shows my weak spots. I don't know about you guys, but even at work, when I do make mistakes and someone points out is when I work the hardest to fix it and understand it better. Doing so, it is somewhat hurtful to your pride at sometimes, but that is good, because you will always remember that thing you missed. The only thing about this test that I do not like is that 1/4 of the morning we are tested on bridge things, but I could say for our bridge fellows is even worse because then they are left with 3/4 of stuff they generally do not have to deal with. I feel like this test both people that are passing and not passing do so very close to the "cut score". I haven't found a single person taking that SE that does not take this test seriously or that is not technically capable at work.

 

[BuzzKillington]

I just think people are too quick to blame the test or organization or whatever.  Look in the mirror.

I personally don't have any problems with the difficulty of the test. I don't think most of us here do. The problem, in my opinion, is how this test is being adsorbed in some of the state boards. 

1. My state board doesn't recognize "SE" title but forces applicants to take the 16-hr test. They won't approve applications for 8-hr PE Civil-Structural, and won't hand out license by comity if you haven't passed the 16-hr test. However, if you do a Georgia license look-up, there's no way to tell if I have passed the 16-hr test or 8-hr test. 
   
2. I didn't take 8-hr PE test. This 16-hr test is the only one I've passed. Last I heard, if I want to get registered in New Jersey, I can't because the state doesn't even recognize the damn test. 
   
3. State boards aren't the only ones at fault. NCEES isn't sure what to call this test. PE Structural? SE? Again, IMO, it shouldn't be called "PE" as none of the other disciplines have to take a 2-day, 16-hr test to get their PEs.
   

I'm not sure why people are shocked when an actual test is harder than the practice sent.

It's not "shock"... it's frustration. See screenshot taken from their webpage below: 



You don't think that's misleading? 

Some probably more than others , which may not be fair but, I'm sorry to say, life isn't fair, processes aren't perfect, and sometimes good work and good faith goes unrewarded.  But you can either feel sorry for yourself and get mad and all that ... Or you can simply take a breath and give it another shot. 

I think people who fail the test have every right to raise their voices if they feel that process was unjust. If their concerns are reasonable and could make the process better for future test-takers, they should be heard. We all learn from our mistakes. NCEES and state boards need to learn from theirs too.

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

I agree with Titleistguy. The questions I remember from the test today are the ones I was not certain about, which prompts me to work harder on, as it shows my weak spots. I don't know about you guys, but even at work, when I do make mistakes and someone points out is when I work the hardest to fix it and understand it better. Doing so, it is somewhat hurtful to your pride at sometimes, but that is good, because you will always remember that thing you missed. The only thing about this test that I do not like is that 1/4 of the morning we are tested on bridge things, but I could say for our bridge fellows is even worse because then they are left with 3/4 of stuff they generally do not have to deal with. I feel like this test both people that are passing and not passing do so very close to the "cut score". I haven't found a single person taking that SE that does not take this test seriously or that is not technically capable at work.

@Titleistguy

This last exam seemed easier than ANY of the previous ones, but I know I know Likely made some mistakes due to time. I've never had time to go back and review problems, I'm just happy to complete all of them. I've legitimately put over 1200 hours of study into this one component of this one exam and walked away failing 4 times already. The first time, I had no idea what I was getting into and roughly scored 50% across the board. The second time, I still saw curveballs and roughly scored a little higher than a 50% across the board. By the third time, I took School of PE as it was apparent I'd get through it on my own. I certainly thought I passed that one, but actually did worse than the second try. For the fourth time, I took EET Lateral. I legitimately thought I had a 38 of 40 morning with AAAIR (basically crushing the exam into oblivion and exile). However, I recieved a 23/40 with AAAIR. Oddly I was that far off in the morning but got exactly what I thought I would for the afternoon? I wasn't able to finish one part of one problem so I knew the IR was there, but thought I crushed the rest of it and somehow did. If you were to ask me about how I feel on this last one, I'd tell you that I curb stomped the teeth right out of that *******. There was (1) morning problem that gave me trouble and a piece of an afternoon problem I finished with words (listing equations, code sections, and thought process) because I ran out of time. It has nothing to do with competency, but I'm fully expecting another fail now. This is the only test I've taken in my life that I could swear I walked out of acing and end up failing. I even decided to switch venues, because I am still so positive I passed the last exam that the venue had to make a mistake somehow. Possibly twice. As goofy as it sounds, my brother lost a scholarship to a university because his guidance counselor sent transcripts for another kid with his exact same first and last name (I knew people that reviewed his application). I'm not sure something similar hasn't happened to me with this exam. I'll never know due to the secrecy though. It's just, "Take our word for it, we have your best interests at heart."

Concerning the time frame, I don't think cutting it that close benefits anyone. All it does for me is make me angry the test exists because I don't have time to check my work and I have to rush so hard that I probably make stupid math mistakes. If your state recognizes the SE license, then kudos to you. I'd probably feel differently if this was a step I had wanted to take as opposed to being forced into it by the state board after already being a fully licensed PE for years. Concerning the PE, yes, I crushed that one too. I believe my actual testing time was a little less than 4 hrs total. Concerning the SE vertical, yeah, crushed that one too. Concerning college, I left with an MS degree and can count the number of not A's on one hand and probably wouldn't be able to count any had I not lost one of my best friends to leukemia that semester and spent so much time traveling to the hospital. I say all this because it's not that I or many others lack intellectual capacity to pass this exam. I'm well in MENSA territory with IQ. It's not because I lack drive and study willpower. I've read every one of our material codes several times and countless additional books in the years leading up to here. It's not for a lack of practice problems. I've likely worked thousands at this point in preparation for this exam. I legitimately understand this **** and have for the last (3) exams. I know all about hysteretic diagrams and energy dissipation, modal analysis, special seismic detailing in all materials and code specific provisions, and basically anything else you could possibly see in the exam specified codes. With all of that being said, I have to admit that I probably do have the shittiest luck on the planet. Luck shouldn't be a factor on an exam though. An exam should be about skill. I never felt this exam represented that specifically because of the broad areas of content it covers. I've felt I've had to reinvent the wheel at every turn. It's almost impossible to find anyone in the southeast that even knows what the term special seismic detailing means. It's just not done here. My architects and contractors would **** bricks if I put dog-bones in steel or drew the tie requirements for concrete SMF or CSSW. I'd be laughed out of town.

The codes have legitimately turned ridiculous. For example, I designed a little canopy for a building a while back. I designed it for 20psf Lr with tube steel. It was designed fairly tight too with .9+ UC in the worst load case for the columns. A freaking car drove off an adjacent parking deck at high speed and landed directly on that *******. A FULL SIZED CAR AS IN 3000 LBS MOVING 35+ MPH DROPPED MORE THAN 20 FEET AND LANDED ON MY ****** LITTLE CANOPY! The canopy had a small lean to it after that. That's it. It was just skewed. All of these intellectual accomplishments everyone is taking so much pride in is nothing but gold plated horseshit. The codes are so ridiculous that I'd estimate almost everything has somewhere around a safety factor of 7 or higher when accounting for legitimate material strengths rather than multiple standard deviations away. If there is a legitimate place to tighten up construction and weed ********* out, it's definitely on the contractor side. For the most part, those guys flavor their morning cornflakes with paint chips.

I still don't want to make the exam easier. I would like to see it broken into components that states (and engineers) actually use (they are doing this with surveying now). I want state boards to not limit licensure to lower competition. The NCEES is made of state board members BTW. I would also like for the problems to be better reviewed and made transparent BEFORE the test. I'm not the smartest individual in the world, but I am far enough along that if I read something on this exam and the wording confuses me, I'm confident there is an issue with that problem. I expect more from our licensing organizations. I would like to be able to apply to take an exam 5 months ahead of time and actually receive approval before the ******* deadline so I don't have to cancel my test, lose 50 bucks for "cancellation fees," then drive out of state spending additional money in gas and hotel stay to take it somewhere else that doesn't suck as badly as Georgia. I would like to understand legitimately why grading goes on behind a veil of secrecy. There are so many issues with this exam and the way it has been administered by GA that I've barely scratched the surface. For you to say look in the mirror and better yourself is an insult to me, but you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Titleistguy]

I'm not saying there aren't compelling reasons to feel frustrated but did anyone not hear before the test that the NCEES practice tests weren't representative of actual level of difficulty?? Any Google search will yield that the actual exam is likely harder, so I don't see how that's news to anyone.  

As far as the state specific requirements, I do sympathize and feel bad for some of the people that need to deal with internally inconsistent rules and policy.

As far as where to apply, if you passed in Georgia but Georgia doesn't recognize SE, have you tried other states besides NJ?  I'm planning to register in IL, they've already affirmed they'll accept passing the test in MI.  Maybe you can take your passing score to a different state?  Then if you have to sit for a diff test in NJ well that's what you have to do.  At least you can get your first 16 hour test recognized by somewhere first.  Maybe then parlay that into reciprocity somewhere else.  And while I'm sure you've thought of all this my whole point isn't that the state to state stuff isn't screwed up bc it certainly is.  But what choice do you have?   

I take issue with the people that think the test should be a mirror of the NCEES practice and if not then it's somehow not fair.  I don't think you can reasonably expect the actual test to be equal in difficulty, regardless of what they say....for the same reason we factor loads up despite what we think will or were told will be the actual load.  You just have to extrapolate from the pass rates that it's harder.  The practice test is easy.... We all know that.  So why are only 30-40 percent of people passing then?   Cmon... We know why. Bc it's harder then they say.  So why is everyone shocked when it's actually harder?  

 

[Titleistguy]

Chaosmuppet ... I don't think anyone can have worked harder , (not sarcasm)... but what do you think is holding you back?  Honestly?   Luck?  Doubt that.  Luck is a factor but not if you've worked as hard as you say you have.  Do you have test anxiety?  Or anything else non subject related that might be hurting your scores?   

I got the As in school, graduated with honors, Chi Ep, Tau Beta Pi, Masters ...all the boxes checked too... We probably all did.  Which is why I love SE candidates ... we're all fairly bright and love this stuff.  

I feel bad you are in a stupid state the forces the requirement, and that sucks. 

I certainly hope you don't give up and I hope you get your pass this time around.  I agree that the timing of the test is dumb, no one engineers or works in the real world on 6 min clocks and in a 60 min vaccum.  My whole point is we have to play the cards we're dealt.  

If you're as solid as you say, and have everything down pat and have done 1000s of problems then you should have passed by now.  So there has got to be something else at play here.  Saying look in the mirror isnt a dig or a shot or anything like that ... It's simply saying , at the end of the day, you can't control the test, the questions asked, the format, the graders, the industry standards, the state laws, and so forth all you can control is how you prepare and your attitude.  That's the advice I give to everyone, but especially myself who needs it the most.  Don't take my words as combative bc they're not. 

Either way , I wish you all the best and hope you passed this time.

 

[STR_BR]

@Titleistguy

This last exam seemed easier than ANY of the previous ones, but I know I know Likely made some mistakes due to time. I've never had time to go back and review problems, I'm just happy to complete all of them. I've legitimately put over 1200 hours of study into this one component of this one exam and walked away failing 4 times already. The first time, I had no idea what I was getting into and roughly scored 50% across the board. The second time, I still saw curveballs and roughly scored a little higher than a 50% across the board. By the third time, I took School of PE as it was apparent I'd get through it on my own. I certainly thought I passed that one, but actually did worse than the second try. For the fourth time, I took EET Lateral. I legitimately thought I had a 38 of 40 morning with AAAIR (basically crushing the exam into oblivion and exile). However, I recieved a 23/40 with AAAIR. Oddly I was that far off in the morning but got exactly what I thought I would for the afternoon? I wasn't able to finish one part of one problem so I knew the IR was there, but thought I crushed the rest of it and somehow did. If you were to ask me about how I feel on this last one, I'd tell you that I curb stomped the teeth right out of that *******. There was (1) morning problem that gave me trouble and a piece of an afternoon problem I finished with words (listing equations, code sections, and thought process) because I ran out of time. It has nothing to do with competency, but I'm fully expecting another fail now. This is the only test I've taken in my life that I could swear I walked out of acing and end up failing. I even decided to switch venues, because I am still so positive I passed the last exam that the venue had to make a mistake somehow. Possibly twice. As goofy as it sounds, my brother lost a scholarship to a university because his guidance counselor sent transcripts for another kid with his exact same first and last name (I knew people that reviewed his application). I'm not sure something similar hasn't happened to me with this exam. I'll never know due to the secrecy though. It's just, "Take our word for it, we have your best interests at heart."

Concerning the time frame, I don't think cutting it that close benefits anyone. All it does for me is make me angry the test exists because I don't have time to check my work and I have to rush so hard that I probably make stupid math mistakes. If your state recognizes the SE license, then kudos to you. I'd probably feel differently if this was a step I had wanted to take as opposed to being forced into it by the state board after already being a fully licensed PE for years. Concerning the PE, yes, I crushed that one too. I believe my actual testing time was a little less than 4 hrs total. Concerning the SE vertical, yeah, crushed that one too. Concerning college, I left with an MS degree and can count the number of not A's on one hand and probably wouldn't be able to count any had I not lost one of my best friends to leukemia that semester and spent so much time traveling to the hospital. I say all this because it's not that I or many others lack intellectual capacity to pass this exam. I'm well in MENSA territory with IQ. It's not because I lack drive and study willpower. I've read every one of our material codes several times and countless additional books in the years leading up to here. It's not for a lack of practice problems. I've likely worked thousands at this point in preparation for this exam. I legitimately understand this **** and have for the last (3) exams. I know all about hysteretic diagrams and energy dissipation, modal analysis, special seismic detailing in all materials and code specific provisions, and basically anything else you could possibly see in the exam specified codes. With all of that being said, I have to admit that I probably do have the shittiest luck on the planet. Luck shouldn't be a factor on an exam though. An exam should be about skill. I never felt this exam represented that specifically because of the broad areas of content it covers. I've felt I've had to reinvent the wheel at every turn. It's almost impossible to find anyone in the southeast that even knows what the term special seismic detailing means. It's just not done here. My architects and contractors would **** bricks if I put dog-bones in steel or drew the tie requirements for concrete SMF or CSSW. I'd be laughed out of town.

The codes have legitimately turned ridiculous. For example, I designed a little canopy for a building a while back. I designed it for 20psf Lr with tube steel. It was designed fairly tight too with .9+ UC in the worst load case for the columns. A freaking car drove off an adjacent parking deck at high speed and landed directly on that *******. A FULL SIZED CAR AS IN 3000 LBS MOVING 35+ MPH DROPPED MORE THAN 20 FEET AND LANDED ON MY ****** LITTLE CANOPY! The canopy had a small lean to it after that. That's it. It was just skewed. All of these intellectual accomplishments everyone is taking so much pride in is nothing but gold plated horseshit. The codes are so ridiculous that I'd estimate almost everything has somewhere around a safety factor of 7 or higher when accounting for legitimate material strengths rather than multiple standard deviations away. If there is a legitimate place to tighten up construction and weed ********* out, it's definitely on the contractor side. For the most part, those guys flavor their morning cornflakes with paint chips.

I still don't want to make the exam easier. I would like to see it broken into components that states (and engineers) actually use (they are doing this with surveying now). I want state boards to not limit licensure to lower competition. The NCEES is made of state board members BTW. I would also like for the problems to be better reviewed and made transparent BEFORE the test. I'm not the smartest individual in the world, but I am far enough along that if I read something on this exam and the wording confuses me, I'm confident there is an issue with that problem. I expect more from our licensing organizations. I would like to be able to apply to take an exam 5 months ahead of time and actually receive approval before the ******* deadline so I don't have to cancel my test, lose 50 bucks for "cancellation fees," then drive out of state spending additional money in gas and hotel stay to take it somewhere else that doesn't suck as badly as Georgia. I would like to understand legitimately why grading goes on behind a veil of secrecy. There are so many issues with this exam and the way it has been administered by GA that I've barely scratched the surface. For you to say look in the mirror and better yourself is an insult to me, but you are entitled to your opinion.

ChaosMuppetPE,

I've only taken the Vertical portion this time around, so I have not experienced the Lateral portion yet, will be taking it in April (hopefully, if I do not fail Vertical). On all your tries, was a certain topic that you constantly under-performed? I agree with you that time crunch is something else. I felt like it would take about the exact 6 minutes on average to solve the problems, and if I saw the number on my calculator matched one of the items, I knew that either I fell for their tricks or I got it right. 

I still feel like you've been cutting real close, with a little lack of luck, but don't let them win, you will pass this exam! And after all this time, rather you like or not, I am sure all the studies have made you a better engineer. I wish you the best man, cheering for ya!

 

[BuzzKillington]

I'm not saying there aren't compelling reasons to feel frustrated but did anyone not hear before the test that the NCEES practice tests weren't representative of actual level of difficulty?? Any Google search will yield that the actual exam is likely harder, so I don't see how that's news to anyone.  

As far as the state specific requirements, I do sympathize and feel bad for some of the people that need to deal with internally inconsistent rules and policy.

As far as where to apply, if you passed in Georgia but Georgia doesn't recognize SE, have you tried other states besides NJ?  I'm planning to register in IL, they've already affirmed they'll accept passing the test in MI.  Maybe you can take your passing score to a different state?  Then if you have to sit for a diff test in NJ well that's what you have to do.  At least you can get your first 16 hour test recognized by somewhere first.  Maybe then parlay that into reciprocity somewhere else.  And while I'm sure you've thought of all this my whole point isn't that the state to state stuff isn't screwed up bc it certainly is.  But what choice do you have?   

I take issue with the people that think the test should be a mirror of the NCEES practice and if not then it's somehow not fair.  I don't think you can reasonably expect the actual test to be equal in difficulty, regardless of what they say....for the same reason we factor loads up despite what we think will or were told will be the actual load.  You just have to extrapolate from the pass rates that it's harder.  The practice test is easy.... We all know that.  So why are only 30-40 percent of people passing then?   Cmon... We know why. Bc it's harder then they say.  So why is everyone shocked when it's actually harder?  

Okay..I don't want the test to be easier. I was not shocked to see my test. I wouldn't have been disappointed or complained about the "difficulty of the test," even if the actual test was harder than what I got. I did enough research to know the practice test was useless to gauge the difficulty and I prepared myself accordingly. I am just pointing out the fact that NCEES has been lying to us by saying the practice test resembles actual test. We have 3 different releases of practice test lying around in our office. They haven't even updated the questions, it's the same set of questions since the last mammoth failed the SE test. Is it that hard to update the practice test with new questions every other year or so? Do they only have a pool of 100 questions that they ask from in the actual test and therefore can't add to the practice test question bank? That shows how much effort they are putting into it. 

Regarding the state licensure, I was just pointing out the fact, that the states and NCEES are communicating in two different languages. Also, I am done with PE tests. If a state refuses to accept my 16-hr result, I am not getting registered in that state. Like you said, what choice do I have?

Also, good luck with your results. I hope you pass the damn thing!