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October 2021 Post Exam Wait Period - Welcome to the Suck
- Thread starter RBHeadge PE
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Help Support Professional Engineer & PE Exam Forum:
morphe83 PE
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Dudes, I just had an amazing idea. I'm gonna FOIL my seal. GOLD foil. Or holographic foil!
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YASSSSSSSSSSS DO ITTTTTTTTT
morphe83 PE
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If you can't find it in your state, ask @Be-n I am sure they have in the "place" he is from and talking about.
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Well, I'll have to bring my stamp home. OR print one on a laser printer. BUT I WILL DO THIS!
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Message me a picture when you're done!! I want to see how it turns out!
Send pics!
@jean15paul_PE too
There were several hints over the years. But not all of them were applicable in a given year. I'll try to write them all below:
1) There is a user "Baconator" who would drop in usually the day before and let us know that the results were coming soon. None of us known who they are in RL, but it's implied they have a NCEES connection of some kind. These hints were more common many year ago and were treated as the gold standard for a while.
2) The date would change on the dashboard a day or so before the release. It didn't happen this cycle but over the last 5(?) years its been a decent warning that things were happening in the next few days.
3) The NCEES Chief Officer of Exams who had the username "Tim @ NCEES" who log onto the website and start monitoring the WttS or similar threads. He would only do this on two occasions: the days after the exam and the day results dropped. Presumably this was to make sure no-one was discussing exam problems. When I would warn people that NCEES was watching the thread and to stop talking about exam problems, this is who I was referring. FWIW, he is retiring at the end of the month after a long distinguished career. He ran the exam services department since 2007 - which is essentially the entire P&P MC era. He hasn't logged on, or logged on visibly this cycle.
4) And finally, starting a couple years ago, the NCEES chat people who acknowledge the the results had been released to the states. This one is pretty obvious, albeit only a 10 minutes warning. The worst part is how this evolved. For years, the outward focused people (chat, phone operators, etc) were the last to know that a release occurred. NCEES wouldn't tell them for day(s) after the release! They'd still be saying "8-10 weeks" after 40+ states had dropped! They finally improved their comms plan, or at least properly implemented it, a couple years ago. Unfortunaly, this may have been in response to the rude and unprofessional messages so many examinees may have sent.
5) I seem to recall that there was at least one or two other things over the years, but they lacked permanency and they slipped from my memory.
I'm going to try to write a few more of these "inside-baseball" posts over the next few days. It might not be a bad idea to try to record things for posterity, as I'm sure I'll forget much of it in 10 years.
The next post will be on reliably predicting the release date and how I presented it in the threads.
Are there any other topics I should cover, or questions I could answer before I "hang it up"?
morphe83 PE
Well-known member
@RBHeadge PE Thank you again for this thread, your valuable support & volunteering your time to answer all our non sense questions, you predicted December 1st & prepared us (Texans) to arm ourselves with patience as our results might be the next morning, you definitely prove your expertise in this matter.
@jean15paul_PE thank you for your analysis about NCEES scoring process that helped a lot to understand and also give us confidence and hope that it is a fair process.
@DuranDuran PE I can't tell you enough how you are an inspiration for us many here in this thread, your wisdom & advice were a big help while waiting impatiently!
Also to my fellow spammers, thank you for the good laugh and making that period way more fun than expected @MeowMeow @txjennah PE @Spitfire6532 @pbrme and many more couldn't tag everyone.
@Liz06 & @structurenole15 you guys are amazing engineers I have no doubt about it, I think and strongly believe that passing the PE has a lot to do with luck as we all studied hard, I wish you best of luck for your next try I will be cheering for both of you.
steel
Well-known member
Dothracki PE
Where is my mind?
Just remember that even if you passed, you are still welcome to stick around. If you feel inclined, there will always be the next group of test takers seeking advice. Even if the format is completely different for some, your experiences on application process or technical material will help. Just remember to follow NCEES rules and never talk about questions you saw specifically on your exams (among some other rules).
We have several games on going here. Some are continuous that you can pop in and out whenever and a few that are more organized. Most will definitely keep your brain active and there are some that are just for fun. We could always use players for the EB mafia. You may be familiar with the game Werewolf, which is basically the same game. It usually is about once a month and lasts a week or two and doesn't often require a lot of time. And if anyone has any other game ideas, you are welcome to start them in the games thread.
We have several games on going here. Some are continuous that you can pop in and out whenever and a few that are more organized. Most will definitely keep your brain active and there are some that are just for fun. We could always use players for the EB mafia. You may be familiar with the game Werewolf, which is basically the same game. It usually is about once a month and lasts a week or two and doesn't often require a lot of time. And if anyone has any other game ideas, you are welcome to start them in the games thread.
Alright, here's how I would predict the release date. And why I wouldn't give a date in the public threads.
There were only two time since April 2015 that I was actually surprised when the results came out. The first was the infamous Oct 2019 (which is getting it's own retrospective post), and I think April 2018(? or 19?) where it came a day earlier than expected.
The typical wait period was a minimum of 34 days. For April exams it would take about 35-38 days, and for October exams it would take at least 40 days. The latter probably due to Thanksgiving and Veterans Day. Only two things would delay the results longer than those periods: cut score exams; and holidays on the calendar. Small deviations of 1-3 days were expected but the deviation couldn't be predicted ahead of time.
It was possible to know 11 months in advance if the results would drop after the minimum wait, or if there was going to be a delay.
Step 1) Determine if a cut score meeting is required that session.
The cut score meeting is the things that caused the worst delays. I need to tip my hat to @josef104, who was the first person to speculate that cut score meetings were the delay back in Oct 2014. It was the first post in this thread:
https://engineerboards.com/threads/results-delayed-this-year.24440/The above thread is an example of a proto-WttS. It and a few other threads that session were what inspired me to put everything in a central thread. But that's a story for another post.
They were doubted at first. But they were proved right almost two weeks later! I learned from that experience.
After every release period, I would go to NCEES PE exam information and look up the exam specs for each exam. A change in exam spec would mean that that exam would require a cut score meeting after its first administration.
For whatever reason, the twice/yr exams would schedule their cut score meeting at a time such that it wouldn't draw out the wait period. And for whatever reason the once/yr exams would seem to schedule their exams as late as possible. If I saw that a once/yr exam needed a cut score meeting then I knew it was going to be a painful wait that session.
Step 2a) If a cut score meeting is not required then: go to Step 3
Step 2b) If a cut score meeting is required then look up the dates of the cut score meeting.
I would look at the NCEES Licensure Exchange newsletter for April, October, and December to see when the cut score meetings were scheduled.
For April exams, I could see in early April when the applicable cut score exam meeting was scheduled, and I would take the larger of 35 days or 2-3 business days after the end of the cut score meeting. Then went to step 3.
For October exams, I'd look in the October newsletter to see if any cut score meetings were scheduled for November. They usually weren't. So I'd have to wait until the first business day of December to see the December newsletter. Once the cut score meeting dates were known I would add 2-3 business days after the end of the cut score meeting.
Step 3: Figure out the release date
Using the result of Step two I'd look at the calendar and come up with a range, actually a PDF, for the release date.
This was easy for the April exams. I'd look at the May calendar and just figure out where the result from step 2 fell on the calendar. So long as the date didn't end up being Memorial Day, I'd just take the date and add 1-2 days and use engineering judgement to come up with a simple 3 day PDF. If the date fell on Memorial day then I think I would force it to happen the Wednesday after. I seem to recall looking at previous Memorial Day week releases to come up with a better day, but Wednesday seems to stick out in my mind.
October exams were both easier and harder to figure out. Because of the holidays they would take longer and add some wrinkles. But the longer duration meant that less of a uncertainty range was required. I knew from looking at past calendars that they wouldn't release until the Tuesday or Wednesday after Thanksgiving. So I would take the longest option of: 38 days, result from step 2, or the Tuesday/Wednesday after Thanksgiving, or December 1. I'd then add one day as a possible range.
Note: The cut score meeting dates for Oct 2019 was never announced publicly. Which negated the algorithm that year.
Step 4: Don't tell the noobs
I'll go into more detail on this in a later post, but I learned during my own Suck that publicly setting dates was a bad idea. If a date came and went without a release then people would go crazy and things would get worse. So I would generally keep the date to myself. I'd mark it on my own calendar for planning and scheduling purposes. Seriously guys, the map is a full time job by itself. And answering the questions and trying to keep things calm in the WttS is almost another full time job. I'll write more on those later.
This is why you'd always see me talk about the release day is vague terms. I'd say something like, "normal release" or the like. If it was a cut-score-meeting session, then I'd add 1-2 days to my calculated range and announce it in the thread it the range was sufficiently late in the wait period. I always padded my release day estimates publicly.
I would discourage people from floating really early or late predictions using vague language and my reputation to keep people level.
I did have two intentional "tells". If someone started to narrow in on my estimate, I'd say something like, it could very well happened "but don't cathect oneself to that day". I choose a "SAT word" for two reasons: one I just love the word and it's elegance -I try to use it whenever I can; but also so people would take notice. The other "tell" the morning of the day I thought I release would happen I'd make my first post in the WttS something like "Good morning campers!". Which is nod to the guy with way too much energy giving the morning announcements. Only @structurenole15 ever noticed the latter. Hat tip to him.
Now I would tells a few other vets privately that things were happening on a certain day. Again, usually for scheduling purposes or to gently ask that a results sub-forum get set up soon. For instance, just so you guys don't call BS on this whole post, I realized that I was going to be busy on Dec 2nd, which was firmly-possible release day. I contacted @DuranDuran PE last month ad asked him to back me up on that day. I gave him the honest prediction and range in my message.
Occasionally I would privately give the range to someone who was waiting themselves. But only if I could trust their maturity and I'd swear them to secrecy. Again, I didn't want to cause a panic if I was off by one day.
There were only two time since April 2015 that I was actually surprised when the results came out. The first was the infamous Oct 2019 (which is getting it's own retrospective post), and I think April 2018(? or 19?) where it came a day earlier than expected.
The typical wait period was a minimum of 34 days. For April exams it would take about 35-38 days, and for October exams it would take at least 40 days. The latter probably due to Thanksgiving and Veterans Day. Only two things would delay the results longer than those periods: cut score exams; and holidays on the calendar. Small deviations of 1-3 days were expected but the deviation couldn't be predicted ahead of time.
It was possible to know 11 months in advance if the results would drop after the minimum wait, or if there was going to be a delay.
Step 1) Determine if a cut score meeting is required that session.
The cut score meeting is the things that caused the worst delays. I need to tip my hat to @josef104, who was the first person to speculate that cut score meetings were the delay back in Oct 2014. It was the first post in this thread:
https://engineerboards.com/threads/results-delayed-this-year.24440/The above thread is an example of a proto-WttS. It and a few other threads that session were what inspired me to put everything in a central thread. But that's a story for another post.
They were doubted at first. But they were proved right almost two weeks later! I learned from that experience.
After every release period, I would go to NCEES PE exam information and look up the exam specs for each exam. A change in exam spec would mean that that exam would require a cut score meeting after its first administration.
For whatever reason, the twice/yr exams would schedule their cut score meeting at a time such that it wouldn't draw out the wait period. And for whatever reason the once/yr exams would seem to schedule their exams as late as possible. If I saw that a once/yr exam needed a cut score meeting then I knew it was going to be a painful wait that session.
Step 2a) If a cut score meeting is not required then: go to Step 3
Step 2b) If a cut score meeting is required then look up the dates of the cut score meeting.
I would look at the NCEES Licensure Exchange newsletter for April, October, and December to see when the cut score meetings were scheduled.
For April exams, I could see in early April when the applicable cut score exam meeting was scheduled, and I would take the larger of 35 days or 2-3 business days after the end of the cut score meeting. Then went to step 3.
For October exams, I'd look in the October newsletter to see if any cut score meetings were scheduled for November. They usually weren't. So I'd have to wait until the first business day of December to see the December newsletter. Once the cut score meeting dates were known I would add 2-3 business days after the end of the cut score meeting.
Step 3: Figure out the release date
Using the result of Step two I'd look at the calendar and come up with a range, actually a PDF, for the release date.
This was easy for the April exams. I'd look at the May calendar and just figure out where the result from step 2 fell on the calendar. So long as the date didn't end up being Memorial Day, I'd just take the date and add 1-2 days and use engineering judgement to come up with a simple 3 day PDF. If the date fell on Memorial day then I think I would force it to happen the Wednesday after. I seem to recall looking at previous Memorial Day week releases to come up with a better day, but Wednesday seems to stick out in my mind.
October exams were both easier and harder to figure out. Because of the holidays they would take longer and add some wrinkles. But the longer duration meant that less of a uncertainty range was required. I knew from looking at past calendars that they wouldn't release until the Tuesday or Wednesday after Thanksgiving. So I would take the longest option of: 38 days, result from step 2, or the Tuesday/Wednesday after Thanksgiving, or December 1. I'd then add one day as a possible range.
Note: The cut score meeting dates for Oct 2019 was never announced publicly. Which negated the algorithm that year.
Step 4: Don't tell the noobs
I'll go into more detail on this in a later post, but I learned during my own Suck that publicly setting dates was a bad idea. If a date came and went without a release then people would go crazy and things would get worse. So I would generally keep the date to myself. I'd mark it on my own calendar for planning and scheduling purposes. Seriously guys, the map is a full time job by itself. And answering the questions and trying to keep things calm in the WttS is almost another full time job. I'll write more on those later.
This is why you'd always see me talk about the release day is vague terms. I'd say something like, "normal release" or the like. If it was a cut-score-meeting session, then I'd add 1-2 days to my calculated range and announce it in the thread it the range was sufficiently late in the wait period. I always padded my release day estimates publicly.
I would discourage people from floating really early or late predictions using vague language and my reputation to keep people level.
I did have two intentional "tells". If someone started to narrow in on my estimate, I'd say something like, it could very well happened "but don't cathect oneself to that day". I choose a "SAT word" for two reasons: one I just love the word and it's elegance -I try to use it whenever I can; but also so people would take notice. The other "tell" the morning of the day I thought I release would happen I'd make my first post in the WttS something like "Good morning campers!". Which is nod to the guy with way too much energy giving the morning announcements. Only @structurenole15 ever noticed the latter. Hat tip to him.
Now I would tells a few other vets privately that things were happening on a certain day. Again, usually for scheduling purposes or to gently ask that a results sub-forum get set up soon. For instance, just so you guys don't call BS on this whole post, I realized that I was going to be busy on Dec 2nd, which was firmly-possible release day. I contacted @DuranDuran PE last month ad asked him to back me up on that day. I gave him the honest prediction and range in my message.
Occasionally I would privately give the range to someone who was waiting themselves. But only if I could trust their maturity and I'd swear them to secrecy. Again, I didn't want to cause a panic if I was off by one day.
Not sure what I did to deserve this shout out, but thanks
It's really great that you've never seen any discrimination @Be-n . I'm happy for you.
I have though. I've personally observed discrimination in the workplace on the basis of race, gender, political beliefs, religion, and sexual orientation at various times in my career. And that's only referring to the blatant obvious stuff. There's a whole lot more subtle prejudice that could never be proven, but still exists.
For whatever it's worth, I reported this discrimination to HR at one of my first jobs. You know what I was told by the people who's responsibility it is to prevent discrimination. I was told that they know the people in the field are prejudiced and there's nothing they can do about it. So they just focus on the offices. ... seriously!?!
But you don't have to take my word for it. I don't really expect you to accept someone else's experience over your own. So here. Here's an article about Texaco in the 90s. Employees recorded executives saying all kinds of wonderful* things about black employees. (*sarcasm) I worked there a few years after this and got to watch first hand as the company tried to clean up it's image.
By the way the "black jelly bean" quote isn't explained well in the article because they didn't include the full quote. When talking about employees' opportunity for career advancement, what was said was that black employees were like black jelly beans. They're always left at the bottom of the jar because no one wants them. Or something to that effect.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...-racism/e5767eb2-4918-4070-adbe-053be672804d/
I'm done.
Edit: I really appreciate and value your comments on this issue @txjennah PE .
I've been trying not to comment because this conversation is EXHAUSTING.
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By the way. Why what you said is offensive. Throughout this conversation you've consistently held your experiences as fact, while minimizing the experience of anyone who disagrees with you.
Edit: also you said some weird stuff about women in your first post. Maybe it was intended as a joke. Or maybe it's a language barrier thing. (I'm assuming this possibility based on you talking about your home country.) But regardless it was weird and inappropriate.
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morphe83 PE
Well-known member
This postNot sure what I did to deserve this shout out, but thanks
eased my pain while waiting , showed how fair is NCEES scoring process. There are so many misinformation and confusion about this matter, so this post made the most sense to me.https://engineerboards.com/threads/pe-score.37562/#post-7704769
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