Obma Tax plan Explanation

[squishles10]

this is a great thread :-D

 

[Dleg]

^^ No matter what the government does, there will be poor people. There are several problematic assumptions regarding the poor in this country. The first is that the same people that were below the poverty line 10 or 20 years ago are the same people that are below the poverty line now. There are exceptions to this, but the vast majority of people currently living below the poverty line will not be there 10 years from now. As time goes by and additional skills are learned, your value to an employer will increase along with your income.
Additionally, the poverty line is based on income, not wealth. There are some rather wealthy senior citizens out there with high net worth but low income since they are just drawing social security and/or a pension. They far from poor, but they get included in the statistic based on their income.

I'm not really concerned with their wages or wealth - I'm more concerned about how well they fit in to society, because when they don't, we all get dragged down with them to some extent. I do think government can help in that respect by giving them the opportunity to improve themselves. But obviously this is not working well in its current form, judging by the squalor and crime associated with most "poor" populations in the U.S.

 

[Chucktown PE]

I like the fair tax proposal. I'd vote for it in a heartbeat.
And a good point about welfare is that Obama didn't invent it - and McCain hasn't exactly proposed eliminating it, either. I'm no fan of it, and I think there are better ways of pulling the poor out of poverty. But no one is really talking alternatives to it - either increase welfare, or cut them off.

My overall feeling on government caring for the poor is very selfish - it's simply that I don't want millions of disgruntled, uneducated, violent americans (or immigrants for that matter) coming into my neighborhood and taking out their frustrations on me and my property. But obvioulsy the welfare system isnt' really helping that, and neither is the public education system. I'm all for reform of those systems, or an entirely new system, but I am really not well versed on the subject. And I do think that it's in everybody's interest to "do something" about it. I just don't know if anyone has advocated a better way of alleviating the problem.

That's a fairly interesting comment Dleg. Did you know that poverty rates were lower in this country before LBJ instituted the "Great Society" programs than they are today. I'll get you a source later today but that is a fact.

I voted for Bob Barr yesterday and the fact is that under either candidate, rich people aren't going to pay taxes. They can afford to manipulate the system such that they don't have to pay taxes. Lobbyists, blind trusts, estate planning, shell corporations, offshore bank accounts, etc. BO is going to increase the rates on people that can't afford those nifty little items, i.e. small business owners, my Dad being one of them. The uber rich can afford to pay lobbyists and donate huge sums of money to the Democrats and the Republicans, which pay them handsome rewards with favors. The uber rich don't pay taxes, and they will continue to get away with not paying taxes until our tax code is simplified into something like the FairTax.

 

[DVINNY]

^^^ Well said.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

The uber rich don't pay taxes, and they will continue to get away with not paying taxes until our tax code is simplified into something like the FairTax.

Uh, if the uber rich don't pay taxes, then how is it that the upper 5% of the tax bracket pays 90% of the taxes in this country?

 

[Flyer_PE]

^^ Wealth and taxable income are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

^^ Wealth and taxable income are not necessarily the same thing.

That money is coming from somewhere, so they obviously have more taxable income than most people.

 

[benbo]

That money is coming from somewhere, so they obviously have more taxable income than most people.

Warren Buffet claimed he paid a lower marginal rate than his secy. Obviously he probably pays a higher amount of money, but it is a lesser percentage.

Although he may have a huge amount of wealth through his stock and other assets, it grows without tax until he cashes it out, when he has to pay capital gains and/or income tax. But if he takes something out he can shelter a lot of it through setting up corporations and LLC anbd such and charging it off as business expense.

A person who just draws a paycheck of $300K will not have as easy a method of protecting the income from taxes, because it is basically all income unless he sets himself up as a business.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

Warren Buffet claimed he paid a lower marginal rate than his secy. Obviously he probably pays a higher amount of money, but it is a lesser percentage.
Although he may have a huge amount of wealth through his stock and other assets, it grows without tax until he cashes it out, when he has to pay capital gains and/or income tax. But if he takes something out he can shelter a lot of it through setting up corporations and LLC anbd such and charging it off as business expense.

A person who just draws a paycheck of $300K will not have as easy a method of protecting the income from taxes, because it is basically all income unless he sets himself up as a business.

I agree that we need to close tax loopholes, and if we were able to do that, rates could drop while revenue would skyrocket. For instance, everybody that pays taxes now drops to a 20% rate across the board...but with absolutely no exceptions. If it can possibly be counted as income, it gets taxed at 20%. This would be considered as a tax cut for the middle class, and on paper, it would be a tax cut for the upper class...but in reality, rich people would end up paying more because they can't dodge any more.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

Oh, sorry I misunderstood the question. I was wondering about tax rates too when someone posted the articles about tax cut per income range a while ago. Is this what you're looking for?

Source

Can anybody explain that dip at $500k to $1MM? The tax rate is higher for $200k to$500k, and at $1MM plus, than it is at $500k to $1MM.

 

[benbo]

Can anybody explain that dip at $500k to $1MM? The tax rate is higher for $200k to$500k, and at $1MM plus, than it is at $500k to $1MM.

That is weird. Could it have something to do with the way they calculate AMT? I'm not sure how they figure these numbers anyway.

 

[jfusilloPE]

While I do not make $300k or above, the combined income of myself and my wife is above $200k. We hope to continue to have our pay increase each year, based upon our performance.

My concern with this tax structure that was stated on the campaign advertisements was that only those making above $250k will be penalized, and then it became those making above $200k, and then Joe Biden states that it will be those making above $150k...when will that ceiling stop falling?

While I may "take home more every month than damn near everybody else in the world does", that is a choice and option that I have chosen. No one came to me and said "hey I make too much money, why don't you just sit around on your lazy ass and I'll send you a check each month."

I joined the military at age 17 because my parents could not afford to send me to college. I invested in the Montogmery GI Bill, and utilized those benefits to better myself. While I was in college, my wife worked as a part-time teller at a bank and a part-time customer service rep for a bike catalog company. I also worked as many hours as I could to help make ends meet while maintaining a full college course load. No one came to me and say "hey I make too much money, why don't you just sit around on your lazy ass and I'll send you a check each month," and I never once asked for any handouts...all this while paying a mortgage and raising children.

Now, forward on 10 years later. I have a child who is in college (to better herself), and we (my wife and I) make too much money for my daughter to get a student loan. So what do I do? I get a parent loan to ensure that my child can have the best that she possibly can. Guess what, no one came to me and say "hey I make too much money, why don't you just sit around on your lazy ass and I'll send you a check each month."

I am all for helping those that need help. I give to the charitable organizations that I feel warrant my attention, but to take the money that I earned to give to someone that has the potential of just sitting around on their lazy ass and getting a check each month is absurd.

You may have read earlier that my wife worked as a part-time teller at a bank, at the end of each month she had more than quite a few well-abled bodies come into the bank to cash their "government paycheck." This is what "spreading the wealth" does.

 

[DVINNY]

too late now I guess.

 

[Flyer_PE]

^^ :appl:

I think this has also been said before on this board and probably by me. There are a lot of small family businesses out there that are filing their taxes in the category broadly described as "household". When faced with a higher tax load, they will either pass the cost on to their customers or cut costs. The first place the costs will be cut is payroll. This will put one more person on the street looking for that government check.

 

[benbo]

Honestly, how many people in the US make a $300,000 per year paycheck? And, if you do, suck it up and pay the taxes, you still take home more every month than damn near everybody else in the world does, and you still have your nice car, beautiful home, and $75 steak dinners. Jesus, why is it that when a man comes around with lightyears more advanced concepts in human rights, overarching benefits for ALL citizens, and a willingness to avoid debt financing a strategic policy that is largely questioned by a great many very intelligent and combat tested military general officers, you still have blind followers of dogmatic faith and righteous indignation questioning a tax plan that is in all principles no different than any other candidates policy and very likely will not make any dent in your personal wealth? Why can't people see beyond the end of their paycheck?
I'm SapperPE and I approve of this message.

I don't mind paying my taxes, and I don't make 300K a year. I don't have any problems with his tax policy. On the other hand, I'm afraid I don't know what are his lightyears ahead concepts in human rights or overarching benefits for all citizens. I listened to every debate, read a lot, including his website, and I still don't know what those policies are. As far as avoiding debt, well I'll wait to see on that. And his military policy, like I've said before, I don't know enough about that to have a strong opinion one way or the other.

 

[benbo]

Further, call me old fashioned, but I was raised in an environment that was about caring for others and taking care of everybody even the weak, not all about looking out for myself.

That's why I give over 10% of my income to charity voluntarily, on top of what I pay in taxes (it's an obligation of my religion). But, like I said before, I don't have any problems with the tiny increases in taxes Obama is proposing. And I'm more than willing to see what he is going to do and rate him on that.

As a person with a chronic illness who is lucky enough to have insurance, I know how important it is. But I also participate on a lot of interent health message boards with people from Canada who are waiting in lines for procedures my friends on Medical can get right away. So I'll wait and see about the universal health care.

 

[Chucktown PE]

I hope that you or anyone in your family gets sick under a universal health care system. If you are over 70 and get cancer in Canada, kiss your ass goodbye because that is what the dipshit bureaucrats in that country do. They ration healthcare, soon to be occurring here in the good ole U.S. of A.

And Sapper, you are more than welcome to donate to charity and help other people, you are not more than welcome to force me to do that against my will through the police power of government.

 

[jfusilloPE]

I cash my government paycheck every 1st and 15th, and when I was working for VDOT, I cashed my government paycheck every 1st and 16th.
I cashed my government issued $800 dollar stimulus check. I cashed my government issued tax refund check. I cashed my government issued $20k bonus for obligating myself to the military for 3 more years. I cashed my government issued government paycheck every month (tax free BTW) that I was in Iraq. What is so bad about a government paycheck. The ones you are saying you don't want to support aren't enough to buy a months worth of quality groceries. Call me naive, but I've seen the fiscal belt tightening of "tax savings" at the infrastructure level and in Government services. I've also had the luxury of paying ridiculous premiums and copays at the doctors office because of the wonderful health care system that we have in this country. I make a good living, and I'll be fine, but there are people who need help. The percentage of people who sit on their ass and don't do shit is low, the percentage of people who need some honest to god help because of deplorable working conditions over years of employment at a coal mine or chemical company that made billions on the backs of everyday, good people is very high. Please don't try to convince me that "distribution of wealth" is a horrible policy, etc, etc. The fact is that keeping the entire country healthy, educated, and employed improves the economy, therey putting more disposable income back into your pocket. Further, call me old fashioned, but I was raised in an environment that was about caring for others and taking care of everybody even the weak, not all about looking out for myself. Some of the principles that many "conservatives" stand on are contradicted by their elitist attitudes and unwillingness to send their children to "that school" or live in "that neighborhood".

First of all, the "government paycheck" I was talking about was a welfare check, not a paycheck for performing some type of employment. Most people believe that a welfare check is not very much money, but combined with the other "perks" (aid to dependent children, the food stamp program, the school clothes program and the medical card program) it can add up to a very hefty sum of money per month.

I saw, first hand, many of these "goverment paycheck" earners purchasing some very fine cuts of meat at the grocery store and paying with food stamps, not that I was jealous, but more concerned as to why I couldn't receive the treatment...as an aside, we did go to the local welfare office while I was in college but did not qualify for any assistance because we owned "two cars", mind you they weren't nearly the best cars in the parking lot at the welfare office.

You also speak of the ridiculous cost of premiums and copays for health insurance. Many of these are attributed to frivilous lawsuits posed by many citizens, but have you ever been to an emergency room where it was laiden with those utilizing the "socialized" medical card for minor issues such as headaches, coughs and colds. Emergency treatment is much more expensive than waiting your turn to go the doctors office because it might interfere with your soap opera.

"The percentage of people who sit on their ass and don't do shit is low, the percentage of people who need some honest to god help because of deplorable working conditions over years of employment at a coal mine or chemical company that made billions on the backs of everyday, good people is very high." While I have no idea what these statistics may be I can support the latter part of this statement about those that need some honest to god help, but I don't think that this is what it is about.

"The fact is that keeping the entire country healthy, educated, and employed improves the economy, therey putting more disposable income back into your pocket." This may be true, but how many will take advantage of it and put it to a good use? We have seen the welfare situation, and it doesn't seem to be improving (at least in the area where I am from). My aunt is a "recovering" drug addict, and as long as she attends AA at least twice in a month she still receives her social security benefits eventhough I don't think she worked a day in her life. She is also eligible for Section 8 housing which she continues to take advantage of. This may not be the norm, but I can tell you I'm sure that it is out there in droves.

"Some of the principles that many "conservatives" stand on are contradicted by their elitist attitudes and unwillingness to send their children to "that school" or live in "that neighborhood"." This may be true to some extent, but isn't it "our" responsibility to better "ourselves" so that we don't have to worry about whether our children are going to be killed in a "drive-by" at "that school" or "that neigborhood"?

"Further, call me old fashioned, but I was raised in an environment that was about caring for others and taking care of everybody even the weak, not all about looking out for myself." I agree with this statement to a point. I don't feel that I am in this just to look out for myself, I do look after my parents, my children, my brothers, my sisters, my in-laws, my nieces, my nephews...but it is not my responsibility to look after those that are able-bodies and choose to do nothing.

 

[Supe]

The percentage of people who sit on their ass and don't do shit is low, the percentage of people who need some honest to god help because of deplorable working conditions over years of employment at a coal mine or chemical company that made billions on the backs of everyday, good people is very high.

I'm willing to bet that the number of people who abuse welfare is significantly higher than those who deserve it.

 

[roadwreck]

I hope that you or anyone in your family gets sick under a universal health care system. If you are over 70 and get cancer in Canada, kiss your ass goodbye because that is what the dipshit bureaucrats in that country do. They ration healthcare, soon to be occurring here in the good ole U.S. of A.

Good point. Their poor health care must help explain why Canada's life expectancy is higher then ours in the good ole U.S. of A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...life_expectancy

mater of fact I see lots of countries with those terrible universal health care systems higher then us on that list. Or maybe we are just working ourselves to death while they sit on their asses and take money from their governments.