Religion and Engineers

[wilheldp_PE]

From a purely theoretical point, you're right. But in practice the commies have been quite active against organized religion.

That may be, simply because organized religion is a direct threat to the sovereignty of the government. You can see evidence of this in our latest presidential campaign. All of the candidates went out of their way to express their faith in order to get organized religion on "their side" in the election. If the candidate was indifferent, or outright atheist/agnostic, they wouldn't have stood a chance in the election.

The central theme of Communism is an all-powerful government. The spread of communism was simply a way to make that government bigger. Not only would it seek to shut down organized religion, but it goes after businesses of any sort...all money must pass through the hands of the government.

 

[roadwreck]

Feel free to add comments, roadwreck.

okay, does this help the conversation?

 

[EM_PS]

I think you and the Cap'n are confusing Secular governments with Atheistic governments.

Please, the US fits the definition of a secular government; not Korea, China, former USSR! Atheistic states officially oppose ALL religious beliefs & practices, which [suprise!] is a demonstrated & observable phenomenon with all of the totalitarian communistic regimes i mentioned - they all practice(d) extreme militant atheism (or atheistic ideology if you want), history don't lie.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

Please, the US fits the definition of a secular government; not Korea, China, former USSR! Atheistic states officially oppose ALL religious beliefs & practices, which [suprise!] is a demonstrated & observable phenomenon with all of the totalitarian communistic regimes i mentioned - they all practice(d) extreme militant atheism (or atheistic ideology if you want), history don't lie.

You show me some ethnic cleansing of all religion under those regimes a la Spanish Inquisition or Jews under Nazism, and I will concede the point. Otherwise, we can all start making baseless claims and present them as fact.

 

[Chucktown PE]

You show me some ethnic cleansing of all religion under those regimes a la Spanish Inquisition or Jews under Nazism, and I will concede the point. Otherwise, we can all start making baseless claims and present them as fact.

Again, read the communist manifesto. While there may not be purges, that isn't what you were talking about. Now we're arguing about whether a communist government is in face atheistic. According to the founder of communism, Karl Marx, they are intensely atheistic and do their damndest to stomp out organized religion. However, you are correct in saying that there haven't been any wars fought (at least that I know about) in order to convert people to atheism. Although, there have been countless numbers of Christians, Jews, and followers of other religion who have been persecuted by governments that were atheistic.

 

[Guest]

Otherwise, we can all start making baseless claims and present them as fact.

I have stayed out of this thread so far because I don't think typing my thoughts/feelings/beliefs in an internet thread sufficiently conveys the complexity of what I think/feel/believe. I am sure the same is true for each and every poster in this thread depending on where you fall within the spectrum of faith, as it were.

I do feel obligated to say one thing - most of the posters have attempted to set-up straw men in order to validate their claim. I don't see how this progresses the discussion other than inflame or trample on others' feelings or beliefs. Rather than continue to throw out fodder for the cannon, why don't we agree that:

1. Application of logic where logic does not apply isn't going to bridge the gap between faith and specific claims from the bible (e.g. water to wine, walking on water, 2 loaves of bread to feed 5k);

2. The issue of faith is very complicated and even amongst like-minded individuals (say christians) there will still be differences of opinion as to how faith is applied to them individually or within their family or congregation (place of worship); and

3. We all have different experiences that have made us into the people that we are today. We will continue to have experiences that will in turn evolve the way we think about spirituality and faith (or the lack thereof), so trying to put a box (constraint) around what faith is or how it applies is really quite meaningless since it always changes.

:2cents:

 

[maryannette]

God bless all of us.

 

[EM_PS]

You show me some ethnic cleansing of all religion under those regimes a la Spanish Inquisition or Jews under Nazism, and I will concede the point. Otherwise, we can all start making baseless claims and present them as fact.

concede what point? That atheism positively without doubt contributed to the suppression & oppression of entire soviet and asian cultures? Btw, the answer is yes, it indeed has, in as much as you hold religion accountable in your examples.

I know where you're coming from Dan - you're saying atheism by itself (or the individual practice thereof) has never led to the horrific historical examples you've given, as clearly religious ideology has. My point, or where i'm coming from, is that it is and always will be, the men, groups, societies, etc that practice or try to flex their ideology to the detriment of fellow mankind that are held accountable in these instances; not religion as an institution; and certainly not atheism as a. . .whatever it is .

When society as a whole oppresses or persecutes one for their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, clearly bad things happen - i think thats the crux of it all. :beerchug:

 

[wilheldp_PE]

Again, read the communist manifesto. While there may not be purges, that isn't what you were talking about. Now we're arguing about whether a communist government is in face atheistic. According to the founder of communism, Karl Marx, they are intensely atheistic and do their damndest to stomp out organized religion. However, you are correct in saying that there haven't been any wars fought (at least that I know about) in order to convert people to atheism. Although, there have been countless numbers of Christians, Jews, and followers of other religion who have been persecuted by governments that were atheistic.

concede what point? That atheism positively without doubt contributed to the suppression & oppression of entire soviet and asian cultures? Btw, the answer is yes, it indeed has, in as much as you hold religion accountable in your examples.
I know where you're coming from Dan - you're saying atheism by itself (or the individual practice thereof) has never led to the horrific historical examples you've given, as clearly religious ideology has. My point, or where i'm coming from, is that it is and always will be, the men, groups, societies, etc that practice or try to flex their ideology to the detriment of fellow mankind that are held accountable in these instances; not religion as an institution; and certainly not atheism as a. . .whatever it is .

When society as a whole oppresses or persecutes one for their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, clearly bad things happen - i think thats the crux of it all. :beerchug:

The point that I am still arguing is that wars have been fought in the name of religion/God, but have not been fought in the name of atheism. People of various religions are always being persecuted/oppressed/suppressed somewhere in the world, but they aren't being killed in large numbers in order to purge or "cleanse" large areas of these religions. Whoever is in charge will inevitably try to push their belief system on their underlings, but shutting down churches and throwing people in jail for their choice of religion is a far cry from torturing/executing them or invading another country and killing entire populations over the same thing (which you did address in your post, EM).

 

[wilheldp_PE]

I have stayed out of this thread so far because I don't think typing my thoughts/feelings/beliefs in an internet thread sufficiently conveys the complexity of what I think/feel/believe. I am sure the same is true for each and every poster in this thread depending on where you fall within the spectrum of faith, as it were.

I agree with all of your points, and I realize that you are trying to be the "sober voice of reason" in this thread. But I really enjoy discussing this topic as long as it can remain civil, and I think it has been civil since the SSmith uproar a couple weeks ago.

As I have stated previously (yet realize that my posts do not seem like it), I am still undecided about religion, and remain Agnostic. I try to connect the dots between the logical leaps in religion, but as of yet, haven't been able to reconcile everything in my brain. I refuse to accept the "just have faith" argument because my brain won't allow it. I have tried to stay away from the bible contradiction arguments, but I do think they are a legitimate beef with Christianity. If you don't believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis, but you do believe in Creationism and say that the Bible is the gospel word of God, how does that make sense?

 

[EM_PS]

Religion, or more succinctly, one's beliefs or ideology, is the most self-righteous reason man can elicit as an excuse to wage war - the sad thing is, man has never had lack of motivation or incentive to wage war on each other ($$, empire, power, etc) - i think religion became a convenient enough rationale to be used as much as it has :sniff:

 

[SSmith]

So another question--do Christians believe Adam 'named' all the dinosaurs and all the fish? I overheard a conversation at work that explicitly said he did.

If true, then this is even a greater stretch than man walking on water IMHO.

 

[DVINNY]

again with the walking on water thing. Damn.

No. Adam didn't name all the fish and dinosaurs. I did that. Back in college after having mushrooms on my burger. Yup, that's the ticket.

 

[cement]

this is why we don't talk about religion at thanksgiving.

or politics.

how 'bout them broncos?

 

[SSmith]

again with the walking on water thing. Damn.

Ive thought the same exact thing the times Ive been called crazy for not believing it.

No. Adam didn't name all the fish and dinosaurs. I did that. Back in college after having mushrooms on my burger. Yup, that's the ticket.

Poke fun at the question all you want--it actually came from an actual discussion I overheard in the break room amongst believers (guessing here). I'm just trying to figure out how representative the idea is.

 

[Dark Knight]

Where are we going with this thread? Wil-h is not going to start to believe, Mary will not become an atheist over night, etc,, etc.

It is trully :deadhorse: .

What is next? To argue if Jesus did exist? Was he born from a virgin? Did the Romans used a cross or just a log to kill him?

I realize that with few exceptions most of the people here give a darn about what I post but have to say this:

Religion is the main cause for this world to be so messed up. People look after the religion that better fits their preferences. They listen to whoever comes and say that "if you believe in God you will become richer and will never go thru difficulties. That is what I call religious convinience or....hypocresy.

Most of the religious leaders are out there trying to be greater than the other one and even greater than God. "My church has to be the biggest and better than the other preacher's" The Vatican is the richest state in the whole world(or at least it used to be). It is not that funny? Many of the psychos used RELIGION as a shield to do evil. Millions have been killed in the name of RELIGION.

Did Jesus walk on water? I believe he did. Did he perform miracles? I believe he did and still does. But that just me. I have free will to believe whatever I want to and so do you. Does believing Jesus walked on water make me a bad professional? I did meet a prominent engineer in TN who is/was a heck of a Bible teacher. Was he a bad engineer because his faith? He was/is the VP of an important company. He was not preaching 24/7. Was he a bad Christian?

Many of the ones that say they do not believe in God are the first ones who will cry for him when things in their life go REALLY bad( I am not wishing that for anybody here). The beauty on this is that, no matter what, he will be there for you the day that happens...no questions asked....no hard feelings. Actually...he is waiting for you with open arms.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

To argue if Jesus did exist? Was he born from a virgin? Did the Romans used a cross or just a log to kill him?

My thoughts, yes, no, cross (but it looked more like a capital T instead of lower-case, and the upright was permanently driven into the Earth).

Do you guys know how the Bible was created? I've watched a couple of History channel specials about it and the exclusion of the Gnostic Gospels. Fascinating.

 

[Dleg]

^I've read three of Bart Ehrman's books about it. Let's just say it confirms my own way of believing. Which is to say, not in a literal interpretation kind of way.

 

[DVINNY]

DK is right, we can go on and on. it won't matter.

I have my own thoughts about the creation of the bible, and of course they differ from the teachings of my church, etc. But that is for my beliefs.

I personally have different thoughts of the New Testament vs. the Old Testament. I won't get into it, but I would assume everyone has developed their own level of interpretation.

I'd be silly to sit in here and try to convince anyone that mine is right, or thiers is wrong. Be a waste of time.

Example: Let's just look at the difference between Christians and Jews:

Christians think Jesus is the son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, etc. etc. and Jews think he did exist and was a profit. Not the Son of God. Jesus was a Jew.

If these two religions differ that greatly on his status, and they haven't been able to work it out, I have ZERO hope that EB.com is going to solve this one.

We can do alot of things on this board....... but we must admit our limitations here.

 

[maryannette]

I make a motion that the thread be locked.