ordering a pizza in 2015

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I'll be blunt. If they can't take the rational steps required for self-preservation, why should I have to provide it for them?

Don't get me wrong, I'll help someone if I know them and know they are deserving. On the other hand, I don't feel that I should be forced to pay for people I don't know.

I think your very altruistic, sap, but I don't think the government should force people to be altruistic. that should be a personal choice.

 
SapperPE said:
If you can explain to me why it makes sense to have the "I make the money, I get to spend it" attitude when it comes to the health and welfare of our fellow Americans, then I'll change my opinion.
I never said anything you attributed to me. I just stated a fact with no value judgement.

When people pay sales tax that is a state tax. I don't think any of that money is going to these federal healthcare plans. Again, no value judgement, just a fact.

First, I have no problem paying taxes to help my fellow people. I have no problem with my taxes going up a little to help out the less fortunate. And this is despite the fact that I think the government wastes money. I think there are more effective ways to provide for others. In addition, as a person who tithes to charity, I have no problem donating the thousands of dollars I do every year to charities, such as the March of Dimes, which are healthcare related.

I have a problem with people telling me that I can't put my own family first. I am worried our healthcare will get screwed up by this. I'm also worried about a huge economic change and expense in a time when there is a lot of economic problems.

 
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First, I have no problem paying taxes to help my fellow people.
I don't have a problem if it helps all people, even those in a small region, like the gov building the Hoover dam, and rural electrification (although that department probably should have been killed off years ago). There are some things ONLY the gov can do to benefit humanity, because of the costs.

What chaps my hide is paying taxes and being forced to help those who refuse to participate in their ownself preservation.

Note that I do feel differently about people who are physically unable to do so. They can't help that.

 
The problem is the underlying assumption that we have the wealth available to fill the demand. Part of the problem we have now is that the price paid for health care by the patient is divorced from the actual cost of said care as seen by the patient. For a lot of people with health insurance provided by their employer, the expectation is that a doctor visit will cost whatever the copay amount is (example: $10.00). The cost of that visit is a damn sight more than ten bucks. The remainder of that cost is picked up by the insurance company. The problem is that, as a patient, you usually have no real idea how much money you are spending when you visit a doctor.

When it comes down to it, nothing in this life is free. Just because somebody else is paying the bill doesn't mean the bill doesn't exist. The regulator for supply and demand is price. The problem that arises is that as soon as you make something available for "free", the demand will then go infinite. Since the supply is not infinite, what will then happen is that somebody somewhere will be deciding how and how much is spent on your health care and that somebody will not be YOU. I, for one, have a problem with turning over these decisions regarding the health and well being of my family to some faceless bureaucrat no matter how well intentioned they may be.

 
SapperPE said:
My fault, see my edit in my post above.
No problem. I'm not upset by this argument. I'm actually in the middle of the argument because I also sort of believe that the present healthcare system is unsustainable. I'm just not sure what is the right thing to do about it.

 
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Except for major operations, you could really pretty much handle paying for it youself, without insurance.

Maybe we should just have insurance to cover major operations, kind of like your liability insurance for your car. you hope you never need it, but just in case.

 
Except for major operations, you could really pretty much handle paying for it youself, without insurance.
Maybe we should just have insurance to cover major operations, kind of like your liability insurance for your car. you hope you never need it, but just in case.
pick and choose coverage...that would be nice. The maternity bill I racking up will probably be the bigger than the compilation of medical costs up to this point in my life. Insurance companies definitely make money off me.

 
^ I'd go for that in a heartbeat. Personally, I think employers shouldn't be in the business of supplying health insurance. That whole deal was a result of trying to avoid excessive income taxes by providing the insurance instead of taxable wages. I have a friend that works for GM and has stated to me that his health insurance is "free". It's not free. His premium payment just doesn't show up on his pay stub and he has no idea what the applicable dollar amount actually is.

I work for a small company that doesn't subsidize the premiums. We do get the premium taken out pre-tax however. I at least know what the whole bill is for my insurance. We recently moved to a high deductible policy that qualifies or use of an HSA. I have a debit card and electronic bill payment with the HSA account and the deposits are in pre-tax dollars just like an IRA.

 
That whole deal was a result of trying to avoid excessive income taxes by providing the insurance instead of taxable wages.
Actually it started in WWII. Wages were fixed by the gov, so to attract workers from competitors, companies added non-income benfits like paying for a portion or all of their health insurance.

 
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^I stand corrected. However, the point that employer provided health insurance was originally initiated as a response to government meddling in the free market is still valid. Many actions have unintended consequences. What scares me the most about the proposals currently on the table is that there is a lot of predicting how people and insurance companies are going to act under the new rules. People and companies will not behave as they are directed to do so for the good of the many, they will act in their own best interests as the environment they are in dictates.

 
What really bothered me was our elected representatives openly admitting that they hadn't read the bills in question. talk about having utter contempt for your constituents!

 
It has taken me some time to write this today so by the time I hit reply some of the points may have been covered.

To me this all boils down to choice. I want to be able to choose the health care that my family and I receive.

To clear one thing up real quick, there is nothing in the constitution that even remotely mentions a right to health care, or an ability for the government to force me to buy health care. If anything the constitution would prevent the government from forcing me to buy healthcare.

I hate this debate and I hate our government, both Democrats and Republicans for creating the bullshit that we have today. If the government had never become involved in healthcare I would hypothesize that we'd all be better off today.

To start, the government created the current system during WWII. During WWII that fat piece of shit douche bag FDR enacted wage controls on the citizenry so he wouldn't have to pay the "retail" price for fighting the war. He didn't want to pay retail because he needed to enact other unconstitutional measures such as social security and large scale public works funded by the federal government. So he put wage controls in place. As a concession, he made health insurance funded by an employer tax deductible. If you wanted to by health insurance as an individual, well go fuck yourself, no tax deduction there.

That created this system where individuals are not responsible for their own health care. Instead, most of us are dependent on someone else for our health insurance. And since the employer pays most of that bill, we don't see the cost, or really care what those costs are, me included. This drives up cost. There is no elasticity to the demand curve because quantity demanded is almost totally disconnected from cost. Read a macroeconomics book if this doesn't make sense.

In addition to creating the third party system, the government also has bequeathed us with health care mandates. For instance, if you buy health care in Massachusetts your policy has to include mental health treatment, alcohol and substance abuse treatment, pregnancy/prenatal coverage, etc. In my situation, I know that I don't need alcohol and substance abuse treatment, but I have to pay for it anyway. Same thing with mental health treatment (I don't need it although I'm sure some of you will disagree). My wife and I are done having kids but I have to buy a policy with pregnancy/prenatal coverage. Why do I say I have to pay for it, because my company's policy is with a big national firm that has coverage in every state because we have people in almost every state. So this big national company has to meet the demands of every state mandate.

I'll tell you how to get costs in line very quickly and it wouldn't take a frigging miracle to get it passed.

1) Either eliminate the tax deduction for employer purchase coverage or give the same tax deduction to individuals. Two things would happen here, employers would increase wages and drop these massive policies that cover all their employees and these employees would begin shopping policies that met their needs. It's less of an administrative burden on the employer and it keeps people from buying a one size fits all policy. These policies wouldn't cover everything band aid at 100% so people would actually have to (gasp) start paying for their own health care (gasp again). As a consequence people won't go to the doctor every time they have a sniffle and according to the laws of economics (which have worked 100% of the time they haven't been dicked around with by the government) doctors will lower their prices.

2) Get rid of the mandates. Allow people to buy the coverage they need. How much do you think your car insurance policy would cost if it covered every oil change and car wash? Insurance companies are going to make a profit (gasp) and all of these services have a price.

3) Get rid of HIPA. This makes it a total pain in the ass for doctors to share information.

4) Enact some sort of meaningful tort reform. As an example, I have a really good family friend who is an OB/GYN. If someone sues him or his company, they can take his house and his car, not just those things that are owned by his corporation. Not the same for a lawyer with an LLC. Why does a doctor risk losing everything? Ask the government. Tort reform would reduce the cost of "defensive medicine."

Why don't we do these things and see what happens. There certainly isn't any harm in doing it.

As far as comparing our health care to that of other countries, most people throw out the life expectancy statistic. That isn't the only measure of health care. Look at the rate of staph infections in hospitals in the US vs. the UK and/or Canada, that will frighten you. Or look at the time it takes to get a radiological study after being ordered by a physician in the US vs. the UK and/or Canada. Look at the number of MRIs per million people between the two countries. These are much more telling statistics.

Whether you choose to accept it or not, government created this problem. Government and/or whatever central planning they're trying to sell us is not and never will be able to solve it.

And while I'm at it, that 45 million Americans are uninsured line is total bullshit. At least 20 million of those are illegal immigrants. Another 10 million choose not to have health insurance, and 2 to 3 million of those are between jobs/temporarily unemployed. That leaves 12 million without health insurance. And the wonderful, all knowing, imperial federal government is going to "fix" that at the low, low cost of at least $1 trillion dollars over the next 10 years.

I would also like to point out Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security as wonderful examples of government programs. Now what in the world makes anyone think that they will run healthcare for 300 million people any better?

Lastly, our Constitution, what is left of it after our politicians wipe their asses with it, guarantees everyone a right to life, liberty, and property. Healthcare is not a right. For us to receive healthcare, someone else has to give up something whether it is their time (in the case of a nurse or a doctor) or a drug (in the case of a pharmaceutical company). No part of our Constitution gives anyone a right at the expense of someone else's.

 
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What about pizza?

My thoughts on health care go both ways. With respect to the argument that the constitution doesn't provide the ability for the government to provide healthcare, maybe it should. I think that as a civilized nation, everybody should have access to health care. To some extent we do. Anybody (insured, uninsured, legal, illegal) can walk into a hospital and get emergency care. Of course, ongoing treatment isn't included and that is the a big part of the problem. As a human, I believe that everyone should have some level of health care that goes beyond just emergency care and I would be happy to pay for it. However, I don't want to pay for Fat Frank who makes poor health choices and ends up getting yearly angioplasties. Another concept I struggle with is "big government". I know a lot of folks on here complain that the government is inefficient and I won't argue with that, but I think we as voters are partly to blame for allowing it to happen. Any big corporation has the same inefficiencies, red tape, etc. Beyond the waste issue, is where to draw the line? What about hunger? American's go hungry ever day. Food companies make profits, why doesn't the government take over feeding everyone? (In fact, I would probably say food is more of a right than healthcare).

So what do I think health care should look like? First there is a lot of tension between profits for insurance companies and care for the chronic issues or major illnesses. Insurance companies don’t like these people since the severely impact profitability, but they are the ones that need care the most. Insurance companies will always look for ways to get rid of these patients or minimize cost. For that reason, I would support government run healthcare for major illness (i.e., cancer, leukemia, rare disorders etc). I would gladly pay a tax that would absolve me of the financial impact of illnesses that are out of my control. Even for upper middle class families with insurance, having a kid with some rare disorder can be under a huge financial strain due to healthcare costs.

There are some issues with this, mainly were to draw the line between lifestyle choices illness and luck of the draw illness. There are plenty that you can place in its respective box, but there are gray areas. For that reason, I support a sin tax on smoking/booze/fatty foods, etc.

I would follow that up with removal of all the deductions for health insurance premiums. When true health care costs become more internalized to the consumer, they will begin to make better decisions about healthcare. This idea is supported by a lot of economist as a way to control costs.



Some other points:

Up until a couple a days ago I supported tort reform (i.e., limiting caps). However, I was reading an article which made argument about how people would react if Congress implemented damage floors. The more I thought about it, damage caps is not the answer to tort reform. I find it interesting that many that are anti-government involvement support tort reform. Isn’t that government interfering with the free market? I agree it is a problem, but maybe there are free market ways to deal with it.

On the issue of illegals and whether they are covered under the plan. As I said above, these folks can walk into a hospital and get emergency care. Many go for non emergency reasons and would continue to do so after the proposed health care. This is still a cost that we all pay for whether we include them in the bill or not. Of course we can’t start covering them without a corresponding tough immigration policy or else we would be over run.

 
4) Enact some sort of meaningful tort reform. As an example, I have a really good family friend who is an OB/GYN. If someone sues him or his company, they can take his house and his car, not just those things that are owned by his corporation. Not the same for a lawyer with an LLC. Why does a doctor risk losing everything? Ask the government. Tort reform would reduce the cost of "defensive medicine."
You want the LAWYERS to pass laws that would make it harder for them to practice law? HAHAHAHA! That's the funniest thing I've heard all day, especially since I'm in the middle of getting reamed by the courts (divorce).

You've heard it before, but now I truly know what it means when people say lawyers are scum. They're scummier than scum. They're evil scum, and they run the country, at $350 an hour, and they conspire to make sure they each get paid first, screw the clients. if they don't like something, they pass a law to legalize the opposite, [SIZE=12pt]or illegalize the... [/SIZE]wait, what? I'm ranting? Oh, sorry.

I would also like to point out Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security as wonderful examples of government programs. Now what in the world makes anyone think that they will run healthcare for 300 million people any better?
Kudos for this observation though - we already have a model - no, three models - for how government runs a program.
I saw a good quote the other day about how Government screws something up and then dives in to pass reforms further screwing things up. Verschlimmbesserung is the word in German (a fix that makes things worse).

What this has to do with pizza, I don't know. But now I'm hungry for pizza.

 
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Come to think of it, in the Framers' time doctors and hospitals were a last resort. If your remedies didn't work doctors put leeches on you hoping they would remove the 'evil spirits'.

With quackery as that, I don't think legislating it to everyone makes sense.

 
^And, the framers wore powdered wigs, lived without electricity and running water, and had no knowledge whatsoever that ilnesses were caused by microscopic "germs".

Clearly, we should base our modern society on a strict adherence to exactly what they wrote.

Nevermind all that stuff they also wrote about the Constitution being a "living" document.

Now, sarcasm out of the way, I have no doubt government will not do anything perfect, no matter what. But the "free market" (which doesn't exist), will also not correct it, either, not if the objective is to ensure that everyone has access to quality health care.

At least Chucktown offered some suggestions how to "fix" it (which implies that he agrees it's broken???). That's what I'm getting at - we need this to be a rational discussion, not a shouting match.

 
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^And, the framers wore powdered wigs, lived without electricity and running water, and had no knowledge whatsoever that ilnesses were caused by microscopic "germs".
Clearly, we should base our modern society on a strict adherence to exactly what they wrote.

Nevermind all that stuff they also wrote about the Constitution being a "living" document.

Now, sarcasm out of the way, I have no doubt government will not do anything perfect, no matter what. But the "free market" (which doesn't exist), will also not correct it, either, not if the objective is to ensure that everyone has access to quality health care.

At least Chucktown offered some suggestions how to "fix" it (which implies that he agrees it's broken???). That's what I'm getting at - we need this to be a rational discussion, not a shouting match.

It seems logical that if healthcare should be a right to everyone then the constitution/bill of rights need amending.

 
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