underwear bomber

[Dleg]

I say we go all nuclear, drive electric cars, and then pay the rich Saudies to accept our nuclear waste.

 

[Flyer_PE]

^There's a plan.

 

[Chucktown PE]

We tried isolationism twice: the first time was during World War I when we tried to wait it out and then found out that Germany was only a few months from bleeding out the French and British Armies. In 183 days of combat we lost 116,000 dead in order to literally save the free world in 1918.
So then we tried "minding our own business" again. Only this time they destroyed most of the Pacific Fleet, France was lost, Britain was almost starved into submission, and in almost four years of fighting we lost over 250,000 dead in order to once again save the free world.

Foreign policy is neither fun, easy, nor cheap, but with great power comes great responsibility. We are not perfect by any means, but we have done a lot of good in this world since the Second World War (The Marshall Plan).

I respectfully disagree that we were isolationist. WWI, I'll agree that the sinking of the Lusitania was an act of war, but our economic meddling throughout the world has provoked armed conflict.

With regards to WWII, please read this:

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/ou...n-pearl-harbor/

I believe, after quite a bit of reading, that we effectively goaded Japan in to war.

There will always be evil people, there always have been. I believe that a far more effective way to minimize the the world's despots is through liberty and economic freedom, not armed conflict.

After Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan, I would hope that we could learn that lesson.

 

[benbo]

It's always our fault, including when people attack us. Our economic meddling is responsible for Hitler too.

Yeah, leaving them alone will keep Islamists off your back. Just don't print a cartoon with Muhammed like in Denmark, that notable imperialist country. Or not give them sufficient benefits, like in Paris. THey'll riot. Or try to get your own human rights if you happen to live under an Islamist regime like Iran.

They might turn their eyes elsewhere for a while, but don't kid yourself. The Islamist's have desire for hegemony. Just ask anyone in southern Phillippines, Indonesia or certain places in Africa. A few other bastions of Empire building.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

Regardless of who started it or why, I posit that the "terrorists" have essentially won the war. They attacked us, and since that attack our economy has begun a rapid decline due to new government programs and massive spending on a two front war. They also instilled enough fear into the American populace to encourage us to start hemorrhaging freedoms. So whether or not we "win" in Iraq or Afghanistan, we have already lost the War on Terrorism.

 

[bigray76]

Whoa, this is not the topic I was expecting when I read the title.
:mf_followthroughfart:

I was thinking it was another Fudgey story...

 

[benbo]

I’ve read all that stuff in the link CTown posted many times before. Assuming it’s all true, it’s still not an excuse for a military attack. And what about the holocaust? Was that a justifiable reaction to Jews? Were England and the US supposed to stay out of that one too? Fight economic battles with economic tools, if you choose otherwise I support my government’s right to attack.

As far as Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan, whether or not those are or were appropriate or effective strategies is open to debate. I think with regards to Vietnam, it may be settled, at least the way we entered and fought did not seem to work.

Wilheldp may well be right, but I believe that there are a lot of factors leading to our economic problems, and I think these wars are a minor component. I also believe we will recover, but only time will tell..

But I do not believe the sole motivation behind Islamist violence is a reaction to American economic policies. Yes, that’s part of it, but even they say otherwise.

What's also true is this is a pointless debate we've had on here many times.

 

[RIP - VTEnviro]

They also instilled enough fear into the American populace to encourage us to start hemorrhaging freedoms.

I agree with you on that one 100%.

 

[benbo]

"start hemorrhaging freedoms."

Can somebody give me an actual example of how this has affected you? How has 9-11 cost you freedom any significant way (other than a little security check at the airport that to me is absolutely nothing)? As far as I can see, everybody is critiquing the government fairly easily on this website.

I keep seeing this written, but I know of absolutely nobody who has really been affected.

 

[Chucktown PE]

It's always our fault, including when people attack us. Our economic meddling is responsible for Hitler too.
Yeah, leaving them alone will keep Islamists off your back. Just don't print a cartoon with Muhammed like in Denmark, that notable imperialist country. Or not give them sufficient benefits, like in Paris. THey'll riot. Or try to get your own human rights if you happen to live under an Islamist regime like Iran.

They might turn their eyes elsewhere for a while, but don't kid yourself. The Islamist's have desire for hegemony. Just ask anyone in southern Phillippines, Indonesia or certain places in Africa. A few other bastions of Empire building.

I'm not saying it's always our fault, but our imperialistic policies and attitude that the rest of the world should fall in line and be more like us has far reaching consequences. I don't think our economic meddling was responsible for Hitler, I think weak appeasement policies in Eurpoe and the likes of Neville Chamberlain were responsible for Hitler. I also think a poor economy (largely the fault of central banks around the world, ours included) and a apathetic citizenry allowed him to do the awful things he did.

Regardless of who started it or why, I posit that the "terrorists" have essentially won the war. They attacked us, and since that attack our economy has begun a rapid decline due to new government programs and massive spending on a two front war. They also instilled enough fear into the American populace to encourage us to start hemorrhaging freedoms. So whether or not we "win" in Iraq or Afghanistan, we have already lost the War on Terrorism.

Like I said, we have to be lucky every day, the have to be lucky one day.

I've read all that stuff in the link CTown posted many times before. Assuming it's all true, it's still not an excuse for a military attack. And what about the holocaust? Was that a justifiable reaction to Jews? Were England and the US supposed to stay out of that one too? Fight economic battles with economic tools, if you choose otherwise I support my government's right to attack.
As far as Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan, whether or not those are or were appropriate or effective strategies is open to debate. I think with regards to Vietnam, it may be settled, at least the way we entered and fought did not seem to work.

Wilheldp may well be right, but I believe that there are a lot of factors leading to our economic problems, and I think these wars are a minor component. I also believe we will recover, but only time will tell..

But I do not believe the sole motivation behind Islamist violence is a reaction to American economic policies. Yes, that's part of it, but even they say otherwise.

What's also true is this is a pointless debate we've had on here many times.

As much as I have read about German history I still have a tough time understanding how the German citizenry allowed something like the holocaust to happen. The best I can come up with was it was the gradual unwinding of civil liberties and fear mongering that allowed Hitler to succeed. And no, I don't think the US and England were supposed to stay out of that one, but if the rest of Europe had a backbone, I posit that WWII never would have happened, i.e. they hadn't allowed remilitarization and annexation of the Sudetenland.

I don't think the sole motivation behind Islamist violence is a reaction to American economic policies, I think it's a reaction to imperialistic foreign policies, largely American.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

"start hemorrhaging freedoms."
Can somebody give me an actual example of how this has affected you? How has 9-11 cost you freedom any significant way (other than a little security check at the airport that to me is absolutely nothing)? As far as I can see, everybody is critiquing the government fairly easily on this website.

I keep seeing this written, but I know of absolutely nobody who has really been affected.

That's the beautiful part about most of the Patriot Act. You don't even know if it has affected you or not. They can wiretap any phone they want, with or without a warrant. But even if they got a FISA warrant, they are kept secret, so you would never know.

Then, there is section 215 that the American Library Association lobbied against...

Section 215 allows the federal government to obtain a court order to compel any business, organization, group, or library to release all its records regarding any client of interest to law enforcement officials — and it places a gag order on the recipient to prevent them from speaking about it.

So the government can compel any private business to divulge their records to law enforcement, and can't even tell their customers about it.

God forbid they actually think they have found something against you because they could then just label you an enemy combatant and lock you away in Gitmo without a trial indefinitely...or worse, render you to some 3rd world country and torture you. If you think it can't happen to you, just ask Maher Arar.

 

[Chucktown PE]

"start hemorrhaging freedoms."
Can somebody give me an actual example of how this has affected you? How has 9-11 cost you freedom any significant way (other than a little security check at the airport that to me is absolutely nothing)? As far as I can see, everybody is critiquing the government fairly easily on this website.

I keep seeing this written, but I know of absolutely nobody who has really been affected.

So search and seizure without a warrant is not unconstitutional? Wiretapping US citizens not unconstitutional? Read my post above, the gradual erosion of our freedoms will turn us all into sheep.

 

[Denis]

Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the--

 

[benbo]

I think weak appeasement policies in Eurpoe and the likes of Neville Chamberlain were responsible for Hitler.

Good grief. How about Hitler, the people around him, and the German citizenry were responsible for Hitler.

 

[Dark Knight]

We have to be more like Captain James Kirk. He traveled all over the galaxy and never checked a bag. :deadhorse:

 

[roadwreck]

but did he bag a Czech?

:eyebrows:

 

[MGX]

Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the--

I thought we were an autonomous collective.

On topic, I did prefer when Clinton was in office and we'd export our torture of unsavory characters to Egypt. That was legal, what was so wrong about that? Now we have to drop $150 mil to keep the slime in our own country.

 

[Denis]

Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the--

I thought we were an autonomous collective.

You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship: a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--

 

[TranspoVA]

But you have to admit...its kind of hard to beat a guy who's willing to blow his nuts off...should be noted he was an engineering student also...should have gone accounting...

 

[Chucktown PE]

^^ That is dedication