AbsoluteZero
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I just want to ask if designing a traffic control plan accepted as a work experience in applying for a Civil engineer license in CA?
Traffic Control Plan - Work Experience
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NJHHEngineer P.E.
Got a bridge to sell ya.
Can't speak for California. Or any board for that matter...but why would you think it wouldn't? I took the Construction Exam in NJ. When filling out my work experience I felt that I struggled with true "design" experience. I found this article by ASCE helpful in filling out that section as it makes some good points and thinks a little more outside the box. I also feel like the term "design" is a little misleading. I feel like they should call it "technical" - ie, applying engineering principles and practice in real life situations, not necessarily sitting down and crunching numbers...
I can't speak for CA either BUT my thoughts are YES, it does count.
However, pretty much all state licensure boards don't just look at # of years of experience, but also whether or not there is a progression of skills throughout that experience.
For example, in Kentucky, of course, making Traffic Control plans would count as experience. However, if that's all I did for all 4 years, they would deny my application for licensure. Licensure implies that you are an educated and experienced ENGINEER, and doing one thing over and over may make you a subject matter expert, but it doesn't mean you're qualified for a license where you can stamp plans that include so much more.
The guiding premise is that a licensed engineer should NEVER stamp anything they aren't qualified (through education and experience) to state is done to full design standards. My experience is all in civil/site design, drainage design, and roadway design. I have 6 years of experience in transportation alone, including the selection and specification of roadway culverts. I "could" stamp plans for roadway culvert designs ... but I shouldn't. Just because my experience involves selecting them doesn't mean I have the actual design experience to know how to stamp someone's design for it.
With that thought process in mind, states want to see that you have progressed in your knowledge, experience, and responsibility over those four years. Otherwise, what's the point of giving someone such a powerful license that has a tremendous impact on public safety if all they've ever done is layout safety barrels and construction signs, or just generated quantity summaries, or just delineated drainage areas? Those things all count as experience. But the PROGRESSION over the years is more important than the number of years.
So when you outline your work experience, make sure you word everything so that you can show you have progressed. Otherwise, they may flag it and send it back.
However, pretty much all state licensure boards don't just look at # of years of experience, but also whether or not there is a progression of skills throughout that experience.
For example, in Kentucky, of course, making Traffic Control plans would count as experience. However, if that's all I did for all 4 years, they would deny my application for licensure. Licensure implies that you are an educated and experienced ENGINEER, and doing one thing over and over may make you a subject matter expert, but it doesn't mean you're qualified for a license where you can stamp plans that include so much more.
The guiding premise is that a licensed engineer should NEVER stamp anything they aren't qualified (through education and experience) to state is done to full design standards. My experience is all in civil/site design, drainage design, and roadway design. I have 6 years of experience in transportation alone, including the selection and specification of roadway culverts. I "could" stamp plans for roadway culvert designs ... but I shouldn't. Just because my experience involves selecting them doesn't mean I have the actual design experience to know how to stamp someone's design for it.
With that thought process in mind, states want to see that you have progressed in your knowledge, experience, and responsibility over those four years. Otherwise, what's the point of giving someone such a powerful license that has a tremendous impact on public safety if all they've ever done is layout safety barrels and construction signs, or just generated quantity summaries, or just delineated drainage areas? Those things all count as experience. But the PROGRESSION over the years is more important than the number of years.
So when you outline your work experience, make sure you word everything so that you can show you have progressed. Otherwise, they may flag it and send it back.
I recently applied to the board for a Civil PE and was told that Traffic Control Plans do not count towards Civil Experience, I am currently in discussion with my reviewer but I would love to know if you heard differently. Also was told striping/signing plans, development review (I work for a public agency), warrant studies, speed studies, collision analysis, preliminary design, project management, project coordination, did not count toward civil engineering experience in CA. If anybody has put something similar in their PE forms in CA and it was accepted, I would love to know!
That's wild. For giggles I read the CA Engagement Record and Reference Form. It doesn't specifically exclude those items. What it does state is:
1. "qualifying experience includes only engineering work"
2. "qualifying experience may be less than the total number of months worked"
3. "qualifying experience means engineering employment that requires the applicant to use sound judgement (sp) in making engineering decisions and contributes to progress towards becoming a Professional Engineer"
what i'm gathering about their setup is they aren't married to the typical 4 years experience as they are "four (4) professional work references demonstrating a sufficient number of months of qualifying engineering experience"
now, IMO, striping/signing plans SHOULD count. even though you probably use the MUTCD or state manuals as guides, they all employ a certain amount of engineering judgment. not all situations call for using all the signs, specific scenarios may require additional signing, alternate spacing, etc. THAT would be engineering work. if by striping/signing plans you simply are just detailing what someone else specified, then that's not engineering, that's drafting.
additionally, it calls back to what I posted earlier about progressive experience. they state that each "engagement" can't be the different projects with the same employer but only in the same capacity. warrant and speed studies, collision analysis, and project coordination I can see not counting, as that does not employ engineering design, but rather just use data/formulas already determined. in KY we consider that "civil tech" or "civil designer" work. project management ... that may depend.
the big difference here is our employers who may start us off doing construction cost estimates, studies, etc. do consider that "experience" since it exposes the new engineer to different aspects of the projects and we learn more about the design from working with the design engineers. the next step in the progressive part is becoming the person who will use that data to make decisions with it. so over the course of a 4 calendar years we can show we progressed as engineers.
California seems to be more focused on specific "engagements" that show true engineering work that shows progressive learning as an engineer that totals for "sufficient number of months" and several of the things that are more "tech work" are just the gaps in between.
perhaps you can provide more details to explain how "engineering judgment" was being employed in the areas that are being rejected. as a project manager, I may do little or no actual design work on a project, but I use my engineering judgment to generate the initial concepts and determine initial layouts, survey scopes, assign the work, assess what the designer has put together, and then I markup areas that need improving, I communicate with the client to explain options and impacts, and see that the work is carried out. if that's the project management you're referring to, I think you can make a case for that counting. if the project management you're referring to is the vague, generalized form that so many put on their resumes meaning they helped put all the pieces together, then that's really just project coordination or collaboration.
good luck, hope you're able to make it all work out.
1. "qualifying experience includes only engineering work"
2. "qualifying experience may be less than the total number of months worked"
3. "qualifying experience means engineering employment that requires the applicant to use sound judgement (sp) in making engineering decisions and contributes to progress towards becoming a Professional Engineer"
what i'm gathering about their setup is they aren't married to the typical 4 years experience as they are "four (4) professional work references demonstrating a sufficient number of months of qualifying engineering experience"
now, IMO, striping/signing plans SHOULD count. even though you probably use the MUTCD or state manuals as guides, they all employ a certain amount of engineering judgment. not all situations call for using all the signs, specific scenarios may require additional signing, alternate spacing, etc. THAT would be engineering work. if by striping/signing plans you simply are just detailing what someone else specified, then that's not engineering, that's drafting.
additionally, it calls back to what I posted earlier about progressive experience. they state that each "engagement" can't be the different projects with the same employer but only in the same capacity. warrant and speed studies, collision analysis, and project coordination I can see not counting, as that does not employ engineering design, but rather just use data/formulas already determined. in KY we consider that "civil tech" or "civil designer" work. project management ... that may depend.
the big difference here is our employers who may start us off doing construction cost estimates, studies, etc. do consider that "experience" since it exposes the new engineer to different aspects of the projects and we learn more about the design from working with the design engineers. the next step in the progressive part is becoming the person who will use that data to make decisions with it. so over the course of a 4 calendar years we can show we progressed as engineers.
California seems to be more focused on specific "engagements" that show true engineering work that shows progressive learning as an engineer that totals for "sufficient number of months" and several of the things that are more "tech work" are just the gaps in between.
perhaps you can provide more details to explain how "engineering judgment" was being employed in the areas that are being rejected. as a project manager, I may do little or no actual design work on a project, but I use my engineering judgment to generate the initial concepts and determine initial layouts, survey scopes, assign the work, assess what the designer has put together, and then I markup areas that need improving, I communicate with the client to explain options and impacts, and see that the work is carried out. if that's the project management you're referring to, I think you can make a case for that counting. if the project management you're referring to is the vague, generalized form that so many put on their resumes meaning they helped put all the pieces together, then that's really just project coordination or collaboration.
good luck, hope you're able to make it all work out.
NJHHEngineer P.E.
Got a bridge to sell ya.
Just my quick 2 cents - haven't got much to add as it seems Jbrown's got it. I think you have to get a little "creative" in how you word your engagements. Similar to JBrown, I am a PM more than a designer engineer by trade. But my job requires me to use my engineering judgement and technical expertise regularly. While I'm not sitting around a crunching numbers day in and day out, there is certain aspects of "engineering" that I use day in and day out. There are several good references out there online that you can refer to on "How To" fill out the experience section. I had a couple handy when I filled mine out. Simple things like "Say this, not that." and things of that sort.
