Time to end affirmative action?

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Affirmative action based on gender

  • should be stopped

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  • should continue

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you as well, thanks.

They really piled on the homework for 3rd grade this year, so I need to go help with a book report, at least the book he read was "Star Wars-Attack of the Clones" even though I would rather be watching the post election coverage..

 
I want to correct the way I worded my original post, what I was trying to infer is that I would hope that anyone (regardless of race, even though I didnt type it that way) would look at Obama achieving the ultimate leadership role in this country by working for it instead of it being handed to him. I hope his achievement will inspire the people in this country that have been "uninspired" in their life.
Well said. This is actually one of my biggest hopes for the Obama presidency - that the folks in the inner cities and such finally have a good role model, and that it inspires them to make their lives better and improve their neighborhoods themselves. A simple change in attitude can do far more good than any amount of government spending.

 
Because from what i getting from your post is that you telling me,its too bad that I live in a crappy neighborhood and have a crappy school district it is what it is and I shouldnt receive an equal education from some one who lives in the complete opposite scenario as me.
correct me if im wrong
Yes, you are wrong. You assumed that I come from the complete opposite scenario. Which means you must assume I come from a privileged background, you couldn't be more wrong, but enough on that.

RoadGuy's post said it best.

Most of you on here know that I ran for election this year to my county's school board, but didn't make it.

I still attend the meetings, and am on a sub-committee.

I am very aware of the issues of inequality throughout.

We have 5 feeder districts in our county. The one that has been termed the state's "DROP OUT FACTORY" is the one I attended as a student. I now live across the tracks and my kids are attending the feeder district that was ranked #1 in our state last year. So our county has the state's best and the state's worst under it's control. But it should be dealt with at the local level as RoadGuy said. Not with state or federal interference.

Funny thing is, over the last 30 years, our county has built ALL new schools for the Drop Out Factory. Everyone said if they got new schools it would be fair. The district I'm in now has an elementary built in 1906. It is an exemplary ranked school. The High School (ranked #1 in state) is the oldest of the 5 High Schools in the county. My point is, money doesn't solve problems. Parental support and willingness to make it work does.

 
Why in the world are there children in US territories not getting opportunities? I think someone like Oprah should take some of the money that she is spending in other countries and she should invest it in her own and it's territories... as an example.
Ha ha! Well, truth be told, our school districts are underfunded because we don't pay enough taxes. Our leaders are so proud of the fact that Tom Delay called us "the perfect petri dish of capitalism" (back in the 1990s) that they refuse to institute a property tax, or raise the low, low boom-days tax rates. The only taxes anyone pays here is a 5% tax on gross business receipts and a 10% maximum income tax (around 5% for most people). The funny thing is, the BGRT was waived for Delay's favorite industry - the Chinese-owned garment factories - who all packed up and left last year, after trashing the place and sending away their profits.

But aside from funding problems, it is a problem with local government. The people in charge are often the same people who grew up thinking that education wasn't that necessary, while the smart kids got jobs in Hawaii or the mainland and never came back. Thus, the endless cycle thing - if it worked well enough for ME to get elected to the local congress (or governor), then it must be working just fine!

 
Very interesting, Dleg. Flyer_PE likes to point out that decreasing taxes increases tax revenues, but obviously there must be an inflection point somewhere since 0% tax results in $0 revenue. Apparently that inflection point is somewhere between 10% and 35% top income tax brackets.

 
I think so, but also note that I mentioned we don't pay property taxes, either, which I think are the biggest generator of local government income in most places.

 
Very interesting, Dleg. Flyer_PE likes to point out that decreasing taxes increases tax revenues, but obviously there must be an inflection point somewhere since 0% tax results in $0 revenue. Apparently that inflection point is somewhere between 10% and 35% top income tax brackets.

I've never denied that there is an inflection point. The most common numbers I have seen discussed run between 13% and 15% on income.

Here's my issue with the way the education system is set up. Right now, regardless of where I choose to send my son to school, the local school gets a large chunk of my property taxes. If I decide that I'm not happy with the local school and am going to send him to a private school, the public school still gets my tax dollars plus they don't actually have to teach my kid. There is no penalty for them being crumby and no incentive for them to improve.

I'm in favor of any system that makes the money follow the kid. I also think that if you give parents more control over where their education money is spent, the participation and interest level would rise.

 
I wasn't saying you denied there is an inflection point, just interesting to see some anecdotal evidence is all.

As for the property tax--I don't even have kids and I'm paying for the school. How would that work under your system?

 
You would still be screwed. Start reproducing man! :D

Actually, there is a European country, I think Sweden, where they have a system that the money follows the child. John Stossel did a 20/20 piece on it a year or two ago. There is evidence that the competition it fosters between the available schools improves the quality of the education at all of them. I don't know how their tax system is structured.

 
A I've argued elsewhere, there are society-wide benefits to having a well-educated public (security, quality of life, supply of skilled labor, etc ). Not just benefits to the parents.

 
In the end affirmative action was supposed to make up for the wrong doing to minorities in the past. As I stated I dont think its particularly fair but its a necessary evil for now......
I'm not sure I agree with that... it wasn't about wrong-doing in an unrelated past but rather about restoring the unequal situation:

The legal status of affirmative action was solidified by the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This landmark legislation prohibited discrimination in voting, public education and accommodations, and employment in firms with more than fifteen employees. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act offered a similar understanding of affirmative action as Executive Order 10925, stating that the act was not designed "to grant preferential treatment to any group because of race, color, religion, ***, or national origin." The act's sponsors, Senators Joseph Clark and Clifford Case, emphasized this non-preferential interpretation of affirmative action when they wrote: "There is no requirement in Title VII that an employer maintain a racial balance in his workforce. On the contrary, any deliberate attempt to maintain a racial balance, whatever such a balance may be, would involve a violation of Title VII, because maintaining such a balance would require an employer to hire or refuse to hire on the basis of race."
The Civil Rights Act did not provide criminal penalties for employers that discriminated, nor did the civil remedies established by the act include compensation for pain and suffering or punitive damages. Rather, the act sought to establish a conciliation process by which victims would be restored to the situation they would have had in the absence of discrimination. To carry out the conciliation process, the act created a new federal agency as a branch of the U.S. Department of Labor, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC). The EEOC acts as a facilitator between plaintiffs and private employers and also pressures violating employers to provide compensation, whether in the form of back pay or restitution. The EEOC also provides legal support for plaintiffs should the plaintiffs pursue their grievances in court.
I don't see any argument for it being a necessary evil today! It would be interesting if we could focus on just this one aspect (education and affirmative action). I'm sure there's lots more we could talk about...

Sraymond in terms of parents I agree with you 100 percent. But you tellling me that most of the parents in these neighborhoods dont care about their children s education? Of course there are plenty of success stories of people making it out of the "hood" including myself being the first in my family to attend and graduate from college. But for one of me there are 5-6 who lost their way, because of lack of education, poverty, drugs, and violence.
Yes, I am telling you that. I can't think of a single instance where a child in a poor neighborhood attending a sub-average public school can NOT get a college education. My problem with all this is just what you've pointed out... a large portion of the "hood" children lose their way but it's not because of lack of education! It's because they're influenced by drugs and violence instead of love and good parenting. To be sure, some will never thrive no matter how much love and good parenting they're given. But no amount of affirmative action are going to help them!

 
There's "affirmative action" among many employers in engineering when it comes to gender as well. While the numbers are increasing, women are still the minority in most areas of the field.

For about a year, I was the only female mechanical engineer among 30+ in the segment at work. We have several more now that we've done some hiring and brought a girl back from being an expat. Still, when I have a child it'll literally be the first time anyone in the segment has gone on maternity leave in well over a decade. I have no idea how management would handle the prospect of a pregnant engineer going on field visits, for example. There are a lot of unknowns surrounding what will happen at work when I (or another female engineer) will have a baby.

I do believe there's been preferential promotion of two male coworkers who are less qualified and experienced (to keep them from leaving the company for more pay elsewhere) while I have been waiting 2 years for a promised promotion. While this is frustrating to me, last year they promoted the other female mechanical engineer who was at my pay grade, so I can't claim they discriminated based on gender. :(

When I was a summer intern, there were about 10 interns graduating at the same time - the four female mechanical engineers were the ones who got job offers (5+ years later, only 2 of us are still with the company). In college, I got a small scholarship intended to help women and minorities majoring in engineering. I gladly took it because my family was not well-off and I took any scholarship or aid that I could get.

Right now I know for a fact our HR department favors female candidates and minorities. They must be qualified, but if equally qualified male and female candidates are up for a position, they prefer the female candidate in many cases. Hell, I got pretty tired of them trotting me out as their token when interviewing job candidates. They also asked me to go out to a special lunch just for the female summer interns, so that they could ask questions about being in a male dominated environment (funny, since the interns uniformly said that they were pretty used to being in a male dominated environment at school and didn't really have any questions to ask that male interns wouldn't have asked). The female interns did say they were slightly uncomfortable that HR had singled them out as being deserving of a lunch on the company dime, due to their reproductive organs.

 
Basically where I stand on this is that I don't think you should get a free pass to get into a school or to get a job, but I also don't have problems with programs that give a qualified, disadvantaged person the same chances as the rest of us. Nor do I have problems with programs that try to advance minorities in the workplace, a particular field, etc.

I don't think some kid from the inner city should get into college just because he fits the demographic. But I'm fine with him getting a scholarship to go to a school he got into but otherwise couldn't afford because he's on welfare.

 
My take on this:

1) "Affirmative Action" can't fix public schools. In fact it does more harm than good. I am a big advocate of vouchers, even though my kids go to one of those "Excellent Suburban Schools" that is well funded. The only way public schools will get better is by competing for the students and losing funds when the parents take thier kids out of the ****** public school and place them into a private school.

2) "Affirmative Action" can't fix ****** parenting. Nuclear families need to be maintained

3) But until we manage to un-screw the inner cities that were socially and economicly destroyed by LBJ's "Great Society", something needs to be done to give the kids coming from crappy schools with bad family situation some help to advance thier education. Need college money? Put down the crack pipe and join the Army!

4) Preference in awarding government contracts need to go away; as do race/ethnic questions on demographic data calls.

In the words of Chales Barkley, "Poor people have been voting for democrats for 50 years, and they are still poor."

I will now climb off my soap box.

Freon

 
Just a thought:

If Affirmative Action because race is going to end I will propose also end special considerations for athletes, specially football players, in college. Tell me how in the world is possible that a student with a SAT score of 700 can go to a premier state college just because he can play football while one student who got 1100 was denied?

I remember two years ago, signing day, and when I saw the "students"/ ATHLETES University of Florida accepted almost cried. It was a joke. They had their GPA posted and I am still asking myself how in the world they were admited at UF. Of course, they had special considerations because they were 6'-2", 225 pounds RBs, etc.

I, for the life of me, cannot understand how these kind of actions can be justified.

 
I can AMEN that one. Our school fees included $125 a semester for "Athletics" but those athletes sure as hell weren't paying for anything I was doing. Alumni dollars, blah, blah, blah...it still is frustrating when you're at a SCHOOL and the focus isn't on EDUCATION.

Now, insert reply below from college-athlete with high GPA, couldn't have gone without that money :)

 
They sell tickets, DK.
You are right DV. Sad but it is true. It ends with the word MONEY.

I can AMEN that one. Our school fees included $125 a semester for "Athletics" but those athletes sure as hell weren't paying for anything I was doing. Alumni dollars, blah, blah, blah...it still is frustrating when you're at a SCHOOL and the focus isn't on EDUCATION.
Now, insert reply below from college-athlete with high GPA, couldn't have gone without that money :)
I have heard some of the classes those guys take,and fail, and cannot do less than laugh.

 
An example of an exception on athletes. One of my sisters highschool friends went to Notre Dame on full football scholarship, and I believe he was her class's validicatorian or salutatorian (don't remember which). He is an exceptionally smart guy that is currently playing football for the Indiana Colts, granted he is like 4th or 5th string so he rarely plays outside of practice but I saw him on TV during the superbowl.

 
I have heard some of the classes those guys take,and fail, and cannot do less than laugh.
My niece goes to Notre Dame. She was home at break with her roomates. My niece is a Sociology major, one roommate was a Civil Engineering major, and the other a Biology major. My niece was talking about all the football players in her class, so I turned to the CE major and told her, "Well I'm sure I don't have to ask you about all the football players in your classes." Paroxysms of laughter ensued.

Of course I also told her about EB.com.

 

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