Time to end affirmative action?

[Supe]

Luchion: Do you feel that without affirmative action, you would not have gotten into/completed your program?

Do you think its fair that some students are given acceptance based entirely on their ethnicity, while other, more qualified candidates (regardless of race) are denied their opportunity because of these quotas?

These are some of the issues that bother me. Sure, the school you graduated from may limit you to an extent in getting into top notch universities, but it will not limit you in gaining admission to one of the many state schools in which perfectly adequate (or above average, depending on discipline/major) education can be obtained. I'm white, but graduated from a predominantly minority high school which was put on a probationary period after I graduated because it had done so poorly. I did what I could, and still made it into every school I applied to, some state, some private. Our Salutatorian was African American and attended Yale.

I don't oppose things like minority scholarships, and I think they're a critical component to minority success. What I do oppose, is that affirmative action contributes to the idea that you can perform work that is not satisfactory or on par with ones peers, yet still be given free handouts "just because."

The best man for the job should be the best man for the job. I don't care if you're black, white, brown, purple, or tie-dye, if someone is more qualified for a spot/position than you are, they should get the nod regardless of their ancestry, or whether or not they have breasts.

OK, maybe I'll make an exception of they have exceptionally nice breasts :lmao: :eyebrows:

 

[chaosiscash]

If the shoe was on the other foot those against would feel different. Read Brown vs Board of Education or the history of the segrated south. When whites are the minority in the US we'll be looking for the same opportunity...

As a white person that was raised in what I'll call the deep south, I call bullshit. I went to a school where I was the minority, in an educational system that was ranked (at the time) 49th in the country (Thank God for Mississippi!). I worked hard, studied, and got scholarships to go to college that were based on merit alone. Everyone where I grew up had the same opportunity I did. Some took advantage, some didn't. It didn't have anything to do with race.

 

[chaosiscash]

Luchion: Do you feel that without affirmative action, you would not have gotten into/completed your program?
Do you think its fair that some students are given acceptance based entirely on their ethnicity, while other, more qualified candidates (regardless of race) are denied their opportunity because of these quotas?

These are some of the issues that bother me. Sure, the school you graduated from may limit you to an extent in getting into top notch universities, but it will not limit you in gaining admission to one of the many state schools in which perfectly adequate (or above average, depending on discipline/major) education can be obtained. I'm white, but graduated from a predominantly minority high school which was put on a probationary period after I graduated because it had done so poorly. I did what I could, and still made it into every school I applied to, some state, some private. Our Salutatorian was African American and attended Yale.

I don't oppose things like minority scholarships, and I think they're a critical component to minority success. What I do oppose, is that affirmative action contributes to the idea that you can perform work that is not satisfactory or on par with ones peers, yet still be given free handouts "just because."

The best man for the job should be the best man for the job. I don't care if you're black, white, brown, purple, or tie-dye, if someone is more qualified for a spot/position than you are, they should get the nod regardless of their ancestry, or whether or not they have breasts.

OK, maybe I'll make an exception of they have exceptionally nice breasts :lmao: :eyebrows:

Well said. I agree about the nice breasts.

 

[csb]

Affirmative action made me feel awkward about some college acceptance letters...was I accepted because of my merits, or was I filling a quota? I'll never shake that.

 

[IlPadrino]

OK... this is getting interesting - let's hope it stays civil and we can continue to learn about others here.

The idea that affirmative action is needed in order to "make up" for poor child rearing should be insulting to parents everywhere! Plain-and-simple... when you're 18, you should have access to education - that means income shouldn't preclude you from getting AN eduction even if you can't get THE education you might wish or hope for. The same should go for employment.

To give preference to a minority at the expense of a non-minority (maybe still not a majority!) is unfair... why should the non-minority get penalized for not being a minority.

As has been said, hard work is almost always the path for success to all but those who grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth. If you grew up in a bad neighborhood the formula is simple: work hard, get through college (even if it means a trip through the military for the GI Bill), marry, have children, and give them a better neighborhood. That's success!

Its been proven over and over again once u get rid of affirmative action there is a dramatic decline in minority students entering universities. It happened at my alma mater.

And I'm certain if your alma mater offered $1,000,000 to minority applicants, the decline would reverse. Does that make it right?

Im sure SOME of you on here cringe or are nervous or honestly afraid that we have a black president.

Ridiculous to even discuss this... if there are those that are nervous or afraid (I'm not sure SOME here are), there's no sense in debating the need for affirmative action because there's a bigger elephant in the room.

Bottom line for me: My son goes to public elementary school. He's in the minority considering race and ethnicity (read: there are lots of black, hispanics, and Indians). Although the school isn't great (mostly low to middle class families), I take it as MY responsibility to ensure he's getting the best education he can. It would be nice if he were in a better school and I didn't have to remain so involved on a regular basis - but it's something I willingly do. If there are families not willing to put in this effort (I don't care what their "diversity" is), they should reap what they sow.

 

[P.E. Luchion]

I think your missing my point.........
but you don't have to be black,latino, asian, poor, etc to have to overcome challenges to get an education. I spent 8 years in the Army (active and reserve) to pay for my college degree, I dont see why anyone esle cant do the same.

I think you missed my point, sounds like you had a income problem, not a lack of education problem.

Obviously we all took different paths to achieve what we have today. But when kids in my community are still using 40 year old textbooks while those in more

affluent neighborhoods are using the latest editions doesnt that put us at a disadvantage from the beginning.

 

[TXengrChickPE]

If there are families not willing to put in this effort (I don't care what their "diversity" is), they should reap what they sow.

The problem with this is that there are very bright kids whose families don't give a shit about them. Those kids work their asses off, but cannot do anything about what high school they attend, or how involved the parents are.

 

[P.E. Luchion]

Luchion: Do you feel that without affirmative action, you would not have gotten into/completed your program?
Do you think its fair that some students are given acceptance based entirely on their ethnicity, while other, more qualified candidates (regardless of race) are denied their opportunity because of these quotas?

These are some of the issues that bother me. Sure, the school you graduated from may limit you to an extent in getting into top notch universities, but it will not limit you in gaining admission to one of the many state schools in which perfectly adequate (or above average, depending on discipline/major) education can be obtained. I'm white, but graduated from a predominantly minority high school which was put on a probationary period after I graduated because it had done so poorly. I did what I could, and still made it into every school I applied to, some state, some private. Our Salutatorian was African American and attended Yale.

I don't oppose things like minority scholarships, and I think they're a critical component to minority success. What I do oppose, is that affirmative action contributes to the idea that you can perform work that is not satisfactory or on par with ones peers, yet still be given free handouts "just because."

The best man for the job should be the best man for the job. I don't care if you're black, white, brown, purple, or tie-dye, if someone is more qualified for a spot/position than you are, they should get the nod regardless of their ancestry, or whether or not they have breasts.

OK, maybe I'll make an exception of they have exceptionally nice breasts :lmao: :eyebrows:

Supe

I definitely see where you coming from me. I personally dont agree with personal handouts or me simply getting the promotion because of the color of my skin. Im referring to all of us getting a decent education that we all pay for through taxes.

Just a few years ago Mayor Bloomberg filed a lawsuit against the State of NY citing that education funds were not allocated fairly among the state, especially NYC not receiving a proportionate amount for the amount of students we have in the city alone.

The court went in favor of Mayor Bloomberg citing "that every student in New York had a constitutional right to a sound basic education. "

So its definitely an issue.

In terms of my school, I couldnt even attend the best school I was accepted to, even with a great financial aid package I still could not afford to attend.

In the end there certain aspect of affirmative action that I feel are fair and other aspects that I feel that are not fair. This would be a never ending argument.

If one of the reasons I got in was because of the color of my skin so be it, if i didnt belong there I would flunked out by the end of my first year. Affirmative action may open the door for us but we still have to be able to walk through it and perform. Schools do not discriminate when it comes to bad grades I dont get a 2nd chance to do better because I'm a minority.

 

[P.E. Luchion]

OK... this is getting interesting - let's hope it stays civil and we can continue to learn about others here.
The idea that affirmative action is needed in order to "make up" for poor child rearing should be insulting to parents everywhere! Plain-and-simple... when you're 18, you should have access to education - that means income shouldn't preclude you from getting AN eduction even if you can't get THE education you might wish or hope for. The same should go for employment.

To give preference to a minority at the expense of a non-minority (maybe still not a majority!) is unfair... why should the non-minority get penalized for not being a minority.

As has been said, hard work is almost always the path for success to all but those who grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth. If you grew up in a bad neighborhood the formula is simple: work hard, get through college (even if it means a trip through the military for the GI Bill), marry, have children, and give them a better neighborhood. That's success!

And I'm certain if your alma mater offered $1,000,000 to minority applicants, the decline would reverse. Does that make it right?

Ridiculous to even discuss this... if there are those that are nervous or afraid (I'm not sure SOME here are), there's no sense in debating the need for affirmative action because there's a bigger elephant in the room.

Bottom line for me: My son goes to public elementary school. He's in the minority considering race and ethnicity (read: there are lots of black, hispanics, and Indians). Although the school isn't great (mostly low to middle class families), I take it as MY responsibility to ensure he's getting the best education he can. It would be nice if he were in a better school and I didn't have to remain so involved on a regular basis - but it's something I willingly do. If there are families not willing to put in this effort (I don't care what their "diversity" is), they should reap what they sow.

In the end affirmative action was supposed to make up for the wrong doing to minorities in the past. As I stated I dont think its particularly fair but its a necessary evil for now......

Sraymond in terms of parents I agree with you 100 percent. But you tellling me that most of the parents in these neighborhoods dont care about their children s education?

Of course there are plenty of success stories of people making it out of the "hood" including myself being the first in my family to attend and graduate from college. But for one of me there are 5-6 who lost their way, because of lack of education, poverty, drugs, and violence.

Im not here to stir up any bad blood or start any arguments, just trying to let my fellow peers here see it from a different perspective.

 

[benbo]

I think you missed my point, sounds like you had a income problem, not a lack of education problem.
Obviously we all took different paths to achieve what we have today. But when kids in my community are still using 40 year old textbooks while those in more

affluent neighborhoods are using the latest editions doesnt that put us at a disadvantage from the beginning.

Yes. That is why I have no problem with some sort of affirmative action, or consideration based on circumstance. But as it is, Will Smiths kids, or the kids of some Black CEO in Beverly Hills, will get credit for their skin color over some poor white kid.

 

[DVINNY]

Of course there are plenty of success stories of people making it out of the "hood" including myself being the first in my family to attend and graduate from college. But for one of me there are 5-6 who lost their way, because of lack of education, poverty, drugs, and violence.

Luchion,

I respect your opinion but I have to say that I am 180 degrees from you on fundamental thinking, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on your thoughts of everyone paying taxes so everyone can get the same education. I see that as socialism. We may as well all get the same cars, live in identical government issued houses, and work for the same government pay grade.

I can never agree with this thinking. But that's just me.

But, what I have to point out in your quoted statement above is that you say the 5-6 lost their way, because of lack of education, poverty, drugs, and violence. So I ask: Did they have the same opportunity as you did? or lack of opportunity as you? (however you want to look at it)

You "made it out", but yet you think they should be given a way out?

 

[MA_PE]

In the end affirmative action was supposed to make up for the wrong doing to minorities in the past. As I stated I dont think its particularly fair but its a necessary evil for now......

When is this "debt" repaid? I'm a third generation American of Italian descent I'm not aware of reparations that I should owe and nor do I know any minorities my age that suffered any "wrong doings" of old. Throughout history great injustice has been perpetrated by one group of people on another. I'd be interesting to see how laws were implemented to "make up" for them throughout history.

Sraymond in terms of parents I agree with you 100 percent. But you tellling me that most of the parents in these neighborhoods dont care about their children s education? Of course there are plenty of success stories of people making it out of the "hood" including myself being the first in my family to attend and graduate from college. But for one of me there are 5-6 who lost their way, because of lack of education, poverty, drugs, and violence.

yes, if IlPadrino isn't then I am. "lost thier way". Baloney. I believe many inner city youth these days choose drugs and violence over education because the rewards to overcome poverty are more easily attainable and come quicker. Couple that with an overall lack of respect for authority (parental, educators, government, police, etc.) and that's the result. Popular culture feeds this idiocracy. Watch an MTV Cribs marathon, or half of the crap that passes for entertainment these days. Gangsters are gangsters no matter what race or nationality. Ask the good people that live on those areas.

Im not here to stir up any bad blood or start any arguments, just trying to let my fellow peers here see it from a different perspective.

neither am I.

 

[Dleg]

Luchion, I see where you are coming from. I didn't even consider education when I started this thread, I was just thinking about employment and government contracting. I am completely opposed to the continuation of affirmative action based on race and gender in those respects, but I agree there may still be need for it in terms of education (and in terms of small and local businesses getting government contracts, just not based on race).

Just so you know where I am coming from, I am a caucasian, I grew up in the suburbs and went to one of the top public schools in my city. I feel I've seen the best of what public education can be. But I now live in a very poor US territory, am married to a Pacific islander, and my islander kids go to school in a system that would make Mississippi schools look like the Ivy League. My wife and I are very involved in our kids education, but my daughter, for example, doesn't even have a textbook to take home after school - the same books are used by every class, so they must stay in the class. Even the best students around here (in the public schools, anyway) have trouble when they finally get out into a mainland university, so obviously there is some effect from the quality of the school district.

But it must be said that the majority of the kids here in public school come from families that do not provide help to their kids in school, and actually provide negative role models in terms of unemployment, drugs, violence, and a disdain for those who who succeed - learning isn't "cool". So there's that handicap, and that's purely a function of the neighborhood and culture, if you will. And yes, I do believe that drags the good kids down, at least to some degree.

 

[P.E. Luchion]

Yes. That is why I have no problem with some sort of affirmative action, or consideration based on circumstance. But as it is, Will Smiths kids, or the kids of some Black CEO in Beverly Hills, will get credit for their skin color over some poor white kid.

True in that case that definitely aint cool.

 

[P.E. Luchion]

You "made it out", but yet you think they should be given a way out?

Not given a way out but a better opportunity for us to help ourselves get out.

You right we will agree on disagreeing. Because from what i getting from your post is that you telling me,its too bad that I live in a crappy neighborhood and have a crappy school district it is what it is and I shouldnt receive an equal education from some one who lives in the complete opposite scenario as me.

correct me if im wrong

 

[P.E. Luchion]

Luchion, I see where you are coming from. I didn't even consider education when I started this thread, I was just thinking about employment and government contracting. I am completely opposed to the continuation of affirmative action based on race and gender in those respects, but I agree there may still be need for it in terms of education (and in terms of small and local businesses getting government contracts, just not based on race).
Just so you know where I am coming from, I am a caucasian, I grew up in the suburbs and went to one of the top public schools in my city. I feel I've seen the best of what public education can be. But I now live in a very poor US territory, am married to a Pacific islander, and my islander kids go to school in a system that would make Mississippi schools look like the Ivy League. My wife and I are very involved in our kids education, but my daughter, for example, doesn't even have a textbook to take home after school - the same books are used by every class, so they must stay in the class. Even the best students around here (in the public schools, anyway) have trouble when they finally get out into a mainland university, so obviously there is some effect from the quality of the school district.

But it must be said that the majority of the kids here in public school come from families that do not provide help to their kids in school, and actually provide negative role models in terms of unemployment, drugs, violence, and a disdain for those who who succeed - learning isn't "cool". So there's that handicap, and that's purely a function of the neighborhood and culture, if you will. And yes, I do believe that drags the good kids down, at least to some degree.

dleg I agree on all your points.

And it saddens me that your children have to go thru a system like that but thats the reality that alot children face in this country.

 

[Dleg]

^Yes, it is sad. But I am realtively well paid, so I will bite the bullet and send my daughter to a private school starting next year (7th grade) just to get her away from the sex and drugs, and hopefully get s better education, as well.

My son, on the other hand, is in special education and is thus stuck with the public schools - there are no private schools with sped programs. We may just have to move away when he gets to the age where the public schools become a problem for him (so far so good, in Head Start).

I sure do feel sorry for those folks who don't have access to the same alternatives I do. Obviously we can argue that it's the fault of our community, and I won't argue with that. But that doesn't get us anywhere - we'll be stuck in an endless loop if that's the only response to the problem.

 

[Road Guy]

School districts are all controlled at the local level, problems with schools should be dealt with at the local level. But education is always a national election topic. School Boards generally receive about 2/3's of local property tax. People need to start making heads roll at the local School Board level to get changes to their school, the President or Congress really cant, or shouldnt be doing that (same as if you dont call the Army to come put out a fire at your house).

But you dont have to be in an inner-city urban school to be the recipient of a poorly managed school system, visit any rural community where there is one high school for a single county, or one high school for two counties and you will find similar deficiencies, and most of those kids (white) are going to be at the same disadvantage when compared to school systems in sub-urban areas where people are willing to work to have better school systems, as those kids who come from an inner city school.

If the parents dont take the responsibility to make sure their kids do whats required in order to get into college then you have to place the blame on them. It sucks to work 50,60 hours a week, and fit in book reports, reading, homework, etc but thats the responsbility in having kids, or at least it is IMO. If my kids school system sucked then I would make every sacrifice necesary to get them out of it (i.e. move).

I want to correct the way I worded my original post, what I was trying to infer is that I would hope that anyone (regardless of race, even though I didnt type it that way) would look at Obama achieving the ultimate leadership role in this country by working for it instead of it being handed to him. I hope his achievement will inspire the people in this country that have been "uninspired" in their life.

 

[P.E. Luchion]

School districts are all controlled at the local level, problems with schools should be dealt with at the local level. But education is always a national election topic. School Boards generally receive about 2/3's of local property tax. People need to start making heads roll at the local School Board level to get changes to their school, the President or Congress really cant, or shouldnt be doing that (same as if you dont call the Army to come put out a fire at your house).
But you dont have to be in an inner-city urban school to be the recipient of a poorly managed school system, visit any rural community where there is one high school for a single county, or one high school for two counties and you will find similar deficiencies, and most of those kids (white) are going to be at the same disadvantage when compared to school systems in sub-urban areas where people are willing to work to have better school systems, as those kids who come from an inner city school.

If the parents dont take the responsibility to make sure their kids do whats required in order to get into college then you have to place the blame on them. It sucks to work 50,60 hours a week, and fit in book reports, reading, homework, etc but thats the responsbility in having kids, or at least it is IMO. If my kids school system sucked then I would make every sacrifice necesary to get them out of it (i.e. move).

I want to correct the way I worded my original post, what I was trying to infer is that I would hope that anyone (regardless of race, even though I didnt type it that way) would look at Obama achieving the ultimate leadership role in this country by working for it instead of it being handed to him. I hope his achievement will inspire the people in this country that have been "uninspired" in their life.

You make some interesting points.

Im glad we had this discussion and we were all cool and mature enough not to let it get out of hand.

 

[engineergurl]

I have a simple question... it is practice in some states to bus students to schools that are not the closest to their homes to ensure that the schools are statisticlly properly diverse. Why isn't that money spent on a real investment in their education. Or is bussing them to different schools in different neighborhoods really giving them opportunities for something?

Why in the world are there children in US territories not getting opportunities? I think someone like Oprah should take some of the money that she is spending in other countries and she should invest it in her own and it's territories... as an example.

I don't think affirmative action is really being used in the way it was intended to anymore.