Religion and Engineers

[benbo]

I'm sure you are aware that comparing your husband to a superstitious ideal is hardly comparing apples to apples.
I don't understand the people that want to believe in something more than their sense allows. I want to believe that it isn't raining today so I could bag the leaves I raked yesterday. I want to believe it really badly... But no matter how hard I want to believe it's not raining, I can look out the window and see the rain falling. No amount of faith could change that fact.

First of all, she is not comparing her husband to a religious ideal. She is comparing an emotion, which is certainly not a tangible thing. I believe in a lot of things I cannot see, touch, see under a microscope or rationally explain. I believe in things like love, and joy, and the pleasure that I get from listening to music. I would certainly forgo my own rational survival instinct to save my child, my wife, or even my friend. All of these things to me go far beyond chemical interactions in the brain, or patterns on an EEG.

And what is truly inconceivable to me is that there is no purpose to this universe other than the physical events which happen. It is not a matter of wanting to beleive this. I just believe it.

I understand that you don't understand this. I also don't understand your point of view. That's what makes the world go around.

 

[maryannette]

I'm sure you are aware that comparing your husband to a superstitious ideal is hardly comparing apples to apples.
I don't understand the people that want to believe in something more than their sense allows. I want to believe that it isn't raining today so I could bag the leaves I raked yesterday. I want to believe it really badly... But no matter how hard I want to believe it's not raining, I can look out the window and see the rain falling. No amount of faith could change that fact.

The religious perspective would be that I just didn't have enough faith.

Well, I've got just the right amount of faith for me, and I guess that's what counts.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

First of all, I don't know how you assumed anything about what I believe about God. Maybe you can point out where I posted somehting like what you wrote here.But since you mentioned it, that's what faith is about. I'm not claiming to fully understand it, and certainly not trying to prove it. The difference is that I wouldn't claim that I could, unlike most scientists.

It could have been the ass-reaming that you gave me on the first page of this thread for daring to suggest that engineers might have a propensity towards agnosticism.

I was just applying your direct quote of "Edit: For me, it is impossible to conceive of something 'starting" - which means there was nothing before it. I can't conceive of nothing. It is also impossible for me to conceive of something always being. So I don't try to think about this anymore." to your apparent belief in God expressed on page 1 of this thread.

 

[benbo]

It could have been the ass-reaming that you gave me on the first page of this thread for daring to suggest that engineers might have a propensity towards agnosticism.
I was just applying your direct quote of "Edit: For me, it is impossible to conceive of something 'starting" - which means there was nothing before it. I can't conceive of nothing. It is also impossible for me to conceive of something always being. So I don't try to think about this anymore." to your apparent belief in God expressed on page 1 of this thread.

Okay - I can see how you might assume that I beleive in God because of something I wrote way back when. I don't want to debate that. I still don't see how that has anything to do with the statement you had a problem with. I used the term "conceive" specifically in my statement here rather than believe. I meant definition 3 for conceive below, as opposed to definition 1 for believe.

Definitions of conceive –

1.To become pregnant with (offspring).

2.To form or develop in the mind; devise: conceive a plan to increase profits.

3.To apprehend mentally; understand: couldn't conceive the meaning of that sentence.

4.To be of the opinion that; think: didn't conceive such a tragedy could occur.

5.To begin or originate in a specific way: a political movement conceived in the ferment of the 1960s.

Definitions of believe –

1 a: to have a firm religious faith b: to accept as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in>

2: to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something <believe in exercise>

3: to hold an opinion : THINK <I believe so>transitive verb

 

[SSmith]

Huh? Comparing a superstitious ideal to an emotion is a likewise comparison? I'm inclined to think the below post is a complete non sequitur.

First of all, she is not comparing her husband to a religious ideal. She is comparing an emotion, which is certainly not a tangible thing. I believe in a lot of things I cannot see, touch, see under a microscope or rationally explain. I believe in things like love, and joy, and the pleasure that I get from listening to music. I would certainly forgo my own rational survival instinct to save my child, my wife, or even my friend. All of these things to me go far beyond chemical interactions in the brain, or patterns on an EEG.
And what is truly inconceivable to me is that there is no purpose to this universe other than the physical events which happen. It is not a matter of wanting to beleive this. I just believe it.

I understand that you don't understand this. I also don't understand your point of view. That's what makes the world go around.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

I used the term "conceive" specifically in my statement here rather than believe. I meant definition 3 for conceive below, as opposed to definition 1 for believe.

Touche. I tend not to believe (accept as true, genuine, or real) in things that I cannot conceive (form or develop in the mind). This is why religion represents a logical leap that I am incapable of making.

 

[benbo]

Huh? Comparing a superstitious ideal to an emotion is a likewise comparison? I'm inclined to think the below post is a complete non sequitur.

You're entitled to your opinion.

 

[benbo]

Touche. I tend not to believe (accept as true, genuine, or real) in things that I cannot conceive (form or develop in the mind). This is why religion represents a logical leap that I am incapable of making.

I should have been more clear in my terminology.

 

[maryannette]

God bless all of you.

 

[Chucktown PE]

I suppose what I don't understand in all of this is why it bothers some of you so much for some of us to believe in a God. It certainly doesn't bother me that some of you choose not to believe.

 

[EM_PS]

I'm sure you are aware that comparing your husband to a superstitious ideal is hardly comparing apples to apples.
I don't understand the people that want to believe in something more than their sense allows. I want to believe that it isn't raining today so I could bag the leaves I raked yesterday. I want to believe it really badly... But no matter how hard I want to believe it's not raining, I can look out the window and see the rain falling. No amount of faith could change that fact.

The religious perspective would be that I just didn't have enough faith.

Speaking of apples to apples. . .you're comparing the belief structure of the whole of organized religion known to mankind to bagging leaves on a rainy day, of which you attempt to believe said day is in fact not rainy!?

You're comparing something that cannot be proven nor unproven, to something that can be ascertained by looking out your window. Hardly a valid comparison.

edit top of page :bananalama: - - oh, wrong thread

 

[wilheldp_PE]

I suppose what I don't understand in all of this is why it bothers some of you so much for some of us to believe in a God. It certainly doesn't bother me that some of you choose not to believe.

It doesn't bother me. It's just something that I don't understand and would like to discuss in order to learn more about it. I'm like this with everything, but most other topics aren't met with hostility so readily.

 

[SSmith]

I suppose what I don't understand in all of this is why it bothers some of you so much for some of us to believe in a God. It certainly doesn't bother me that some of you choose not to believe.

When we are talking amongst those who build our nation's bridges, design our city's buildings, electrical and road infrastructure, that engineer our nation's defense, it bothers me greatly that there is a part of them that puts reason and sanity aside for whatever reason.

 

[chaosiscash]

When we are talking amongst those who build our nation's bridges, design our city's buildings, electrical and road infrastructure, that engineer our nation's defense, it bothers me greatly that there is a part of them that puts reason and sanity aside for whatever reason.

Wow. If you knew what I did and what I believe (along with a great many of the people I work with) you'd really freak out. I don't think my beliefs are any detriment to me doing my job well and safely.

Have a safe and happy new year.

 

[SSmith]

Speaking of apples to apples. . .you're comparing the belief structure of the whole of organized religion known to mankind to bagging leaves on a rainy day, of which you attempt to believe said day is in fact not rainy!?
You're comparing something that cannot be proven nor unproven, to something that can be ascertained by looking out your window. Hardly a valid comparison.

Um, no. I was making the comparison of having a belief structure that only half aligns with what people already know is sensibly right. Back to my example--If I want to believe it is rainy outside, my FIRST action is to look outside to see if it's rainy. I don't say "well I believe it's rainy" and never look outside because I have a new found belief that it is raining. That is I am going to evaluate the evidence first, then make sure my belief system aligns with what is empirically true. Not the other way around.

Lets put the creation discussion aside for a minute. Here is a short list of things that people have called me crazy for not believing:

1. Man can walk on water.

2. 2 loaves bread/5000 servings > 2 loaves of bread

3. Man can live in the belly of a fish for 3 days. (Are there even fish that large that live in the shallow water regions?)

4. Man came before dinosaurs. (But Adam named ALL the beasts of the field.)

How any engineer can believe any 1 of the above 4 things scares me. I just hope they don't apply the same level of faith to their work.

 

[tymr]

God bless all of you.

I suppose what I don't understand in all of this is why it bothers some of you so much for some of us to believe in a God. It certainly doesn't bother me that some of you choose not to believe.

Wow. If you knew what I did and what I believe (along with a great many of the people I work with) you'd really freak out. I don't think my beliefs are any detriment to me doing my job well and safely.
Have a safe and happy new year.

Ditto. I would say Holy Cow but I think that's hindu. I am having trouble discerning if the "opposing" side is vehemently angry or not. I must admit that I tiptoed over here against my better judgment.

 

[Chucktown PE]

When we are talking amongst those who build our nation's bridges, design our city's buildings, electrical and road infrastructure, that engineer our nation's defense, it bothers me greatly that there is a part of them that puts reason and sanity aside for whatever reason.

You're rather arrogant to 1) think that only those who are agnostic are capable of being engineers 2) to think that we're insane for believing in God and 3) think that there is no possible way in the universe that you may be wrong. I have to infer from your post that for some reason you think that I put Newtonian physics aside when I'm designing a wastewater plant and just trust that God is going to take care of it. Believe it or not, those of us who are Christians are not simple mindless myrmidons that ignore the natural world around us and believe that the earth is flat. This probably sounds ridiculous but when I see billions upon billions of microbes all performing a function seamlessly I think that all of that order couldn't possibly occur spontaneously and I haven't heard modern science deliver an explanation for that among many other things. I was a Christian long before I went to school to become an engineer and during school/academics I didn't find anything that contradicted my belief in God. It bothers me that there are people out there that refuse to open their minds to the possibility that they may be incorrect about something.

I can't explain Jonah and the whale, the dinosaur issue, or the loaves feeding 5000. I also can't explain where matter came from or string theory. Let's just accept the fact that in religion as in science, there are some things that have to be taken on faith.

 

[SSmith]

I have to infer from your post that for some reason you think that I put Newtonian physics aside when I'm designing a wastewater plant and just trust that God is going to take care of it.

So how did man walk on water if you don't put Newtonian physics aside? Asked a different way--when do you decide to put Newtonian physics aside to create a situation where man walking on water aligns with something different than what is empirically true?

You're rather arrogant

Name calling now? Anyways--Arrogant? Probably not. Vocal? Most definitely.

 

[EM_PS]

Um, no. I was making the comparison of having a belief structure that only half aligns with what people already know is sensibly right. Back to my example--If I want to believe it is rainy outside, my FIRST action is to look outside to see if it's rainy.

And see that's my point. You can't look back into the 20 - 30 AD time, and ascertain whether Peter truly walked on water. Were they on a sand bar? was there flotsam & jetsom that he may have actually stepped upon? Or maybe, just maybe, being in the presence of God, at the command of God, did he truly walk on water? Moses did many 'engineering defying' things at the command of & through the power of God. This takes me back to the post i made on page 1 (#46) where i stated you pretty much take the leap of faith from sentence one in the Bible. Can you disprove any of it? Of course it doesn't make sense by the laws of physics as we know it, but either God can do these things, and if he created the heavens & the earth, i'd have to say he could, or you simply don't believe in God in any way shape or form. That said, see the following. . .

1. Man can walk on water.2. 2 loaves bread/5000 servings > 2 loaves of bread

3. Man can live in the belly of a fish for 3 days. (Are there even fish that large that live in the shallow water regions?)

4. Man came before dinosaurs. (But Adam named ALL the beasts of the field.)

How any engineer can believe any 1 of the above 4 things scares me. I just hope they don't apply the same level of faith to their work.

Does it really matter what you pick out of the bible to support your argument? If you don't believe in God at jumpstreet, what possible consequence are any subsequent passages within the bible? Did Eve truly eat of the apple (or was it actually Adam slipping up)? Did Cain truly murder Abel? Was Lot's wife really turned into a pillar of salt? Does it really matter if the underlying belief in God the creator isn't there at all?

You're being combative & challenging (IMO) when you throw in the statement about being scared of engineers who believe, and hoping our work isn't somehow subpar based on our spiritual faith. I for one, do not question your work or ability to engineer based on what you've stated in our little online community - I guess i would respectfully ask that you hold your armchair judgement of your peers to yourself out of the lack of tangible data you actually have available to make such a judgement.

Happy New Year!

 

[SSmith]

Can you disprove any of it?

See that's exactly the point. The burden of proof lies with those making the claim, not with those who are saying it doesn't make sense.

If I said I could fly, you would naturally say "prove it!" You would throw the BS flag with such a quickness if I just responded by saying "well you can't prove that I can't fly."