Religion and Engineers

[EM_PS]

But if you honestly with a straight face believe that it is both sane and rational to think that a man walked on water, then more power to you. I don't and will continue to not understand how any engineer could. If you honestly believe that is is both sane and rational to believe that 2 loaves of bread divided amongst 5000 people some number greater than 2 loves of bread, then more power to you. I don't and will continue to not understand how any engineer could.

Ssmith -I accept the fact that you do not accept a theistic hypothesis in your walk of life. I cannot understand why you seek then to try to explain accounts from the Bible without predication of the theistic hypothesis of which the book is based on.

And i say it again, i cannot understand why you seek legitamization of accounts from a book without accepting the theistic hypothesis upon which the totality of it is predicated on. :screwloose:

Here's my straight-faced closing - I cannot legitamize the accounts chronicled within it without accepting the theistic hypothesis it is predicated on - no person can.

You're overdue for this :deadhorse:

 

[benbo]

Like I said, I'm done arguing the faith vs non-faith issue. That's pointless. But I am concerned about SSmith's worries about engineers, since I'm certain he is probably spending a lot of time checking the religious beliefs of the people who design, build, and service the public conveyances he uses. I want to try to put his mind at ease.

Even assuming somebody believed in all the Biblical stories, engineers do not design based on one instance of history and one individual. No engineer sits down and bases his or her designs on Shaquille O'Neill, or David Blaine. No one can honestly think that religious engineers sit down and think "Well, I won't bother worrying about the strength of that footbridge, because as we know, eveybody can walk on water" No engineer is going to design a bridge that only a Biblical Jesus could safely use.

Despite any prejudices you may have to the contrary, religious people are able to compartmentalize just like everybody else. Just as other people put aside their philosophical beliefs, emotions,and passions when necessary, so do religious people. Much like jurors, who daily put aside beliefs, many correct, to judge cases based on the law, so do religious people. Granted, some kooks may not, but that is true of anybody who has any philosophical or personal belief or prejudice.

So if you are truly worried about the safety of designs, as you stated, you can start using roads and elevators now.

 

[benbo]

To add one point. I know of no 100% logical person, except possibly Mr. Spock and that robot from "Lost in Space." And I'm glad of that. I know of people who believe in aliens from outer space, and that the FreeMasons control the world. There are probably some people on this website that believe those things. I don't believe it, but I won't fully discount it. And I don't assume those beliefs influence how they perform their technical work.

I have no logical or rational basis for the love I feel for my family, but it exists nonetheless and I'm better for it.

 

[EM_PS]

For grins, the reverse inane argument:

Christian vs Atheist:

Christian: Hey dude, got a sec?

Atheist: Hmm, alright.

Christian: What are your thoughts on the Bible?

Atheist: I don’t believe in God or his existence, therefore Bible is just historical myth & legend. A glorified ‘Beowulf’ if you will.

Christian: Cool, I certainly love me some fiction! Ok, so how is it that God created the heavens & earth out of nothingness?

Atheist: Dude, I told you, God doesn’t exist. . .no God, no Grand Creator.

Christian: Oh, right. So how then did Moses do all his feats with God's power, pretty crazy huh?

Atheist: Couldn’t have happened, remember, no God, thus no magical feats performed by Moses.

Christian: Right, right. So when God & Satan were quarrelling over Job. . .

Atheist: Stop. No God, no Satan. Seeing the pattern yet?

Christian: Hmm, makes sense – So, when Christ was born, and a multitude of heavenly host appeared. . .

Atheist: No God, no son of God! You’re not quite getting this are you?

Christian: Christ was just a man then? Ok, so how did he feed the masses w/ 2 loaves of bread?

Atheist: Dude, seriously? There is no God, no Son of God, Jesus had to be just a man, He could not have done that!

Christian: Sheesh, ok, ok. So how then did he walk on water? No wait, how did he enable a mortal man to walk on water then, huh?

Atheist: Auuuughhhgghhhhhhhhh!

Christian: You’re not being very sane & rational are you?

 

[SSmith]

For grins, the reverse inane argument

Too funny!

 

[Dleg]

Damn, I sure missed a firestorm in this thread over the holiday weekend!

I feel the need to throw in my Grand Theft Auto metaphor again:

I had a revelation while playing Grand Theft Auto, Vice City on my PS2 a few years ago. Yeah, I know, you can't get much farther from good religious ideals than that game. But this was my revelation, which to me suddenly explained, in terms an engineer can understand, how there could possibly be such a disconnect between a created universe and its creator:

Imagine if you were one of the "innocent civilians" walking or driving around in the Grand Theft Auto world. Let's say it's Grand Theft Auto 99 - the 99th version where the innocent civilians have more sophisticated AI and can learn things on their own. You are a fully simulated little person. For all you know, the world you live in and see is all that exists, and you are free to come and go as you please. If you wanted to, you observe and deduce laws of physics that apply to things you see in this world. In fact, thousands of other AI bots that came before you have done so and have worked it out to the point that you believe there isn't much doubt that your universe has existed the way it has for a long, long time. They've even gotten so far that they've figured out that even the subatomic particles are composed of even tinier things called "strings" that appear to have no mass. Yep, they've figured out that even mass is just an illusion, a manifestation of energy.

Of course, the programmer(s) look at these deductions and are impressed with their design work - these AI bots are perilously close to discovering that the "strings" are actually just bits of data, corresponding to nothing physical whatsoever. The "universe" the AI bots live in is the result of hundreds of iterations of program design and refinements (remember that cheesy "Dinosaur World 2500" game series? Yeah they used the world model from that piece of crap), and at any given time, on any number of the thousands of PS1000's in existence, the universe in any particular game of Grand Theft Auto 99 could be as old as a few minutes, or several weeks, depending on when that particular game was booted up (i.e., sprang up from nothingness). And of course, some bots are actually controlled by real people, and the AI bots sometimes get all flustered trying to figure out these strange, unexplained events and remarkable "people" who spring up throughout their history to play games of "War" or "Rule the World" or "Investment Bank ing Tycoon" or just go around randomly killing bots and destroying things. And even more rarely, the moderators of the game will let a bad player slip through who uses cheats, to either play "God" and try to start a new religion, or just zip around seeing the sights, confusing the hell out of the AI bots, who think they've seen an alien spaceship that can defy the laws of physics.

So if you want an engineering explanation of how a man walking on water can be explained, you could try thinking along those lines. Kind of Matrix-ey, I admit, but it goes even farther. "There is no spoon." But they really mean it this time.

Maybe I should get back to work now.

 

[Road Guy]

I converted to scientology a while back, good stuff...//...//...

 

[Capt Worley PE]

I'm still convinced ElRon did that as a joke.

 

[Flyer_PE]

^ I can't remember which story he did it in, but he posed a theory that a very fast way to make yourself VERY rich would be to establish a religion with yourself as the deity. I think the empirical evidence speaks for itself.

 

[Capt Worley PE]

He had a pretty wicked and subtle sense of humor. battlefield Earth was full of funny stuff if you read it right. Like the Selachees, a race of sharks that were all lawyers.

 

[Flyer_PE]

^I may have to read that one again. I think I read it 20 years ago. Any time I think of Hubbard, the Douglas Adams character spending a year dead for tax purposes comes to mind. There's another series I last visited 15 years ago.......

 

[BluSkyy]

He had a pretty wicked and subtle sense of humor. battlefield Earth was full of funny stuff if you read it right. Like the Selachees, a race of sharks that were all lawyers.

subtle might be a stretch.

 

[Capt Worley PE]

Yeah, but you have to remeber I was seventeen or so the first time I read it.

Time for a nice bowl of kerbango.

 

[Dleg]

've always wanted to start a cult. For many years I have thought that my proximity to the deepest point of water on earth is something I should capitalize on. "The Church of the Marianas Trench."

Obviously my video game theory would make a good, logical basis for a new cult. But it has nothing to do with the trench. Any other ideas?

 

[csb]

I think a lot of people would join a church if it marketed its large wet crevice.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

I think a lot of people would join a church if it marketed it's large wet crevice.

Do what now?

 

[csb]

See? You've already got interest for the Church of the Marianas Trench!

 

[wilheldp_PE]

See? You've already got interest for the Church of the Marianas Trench!

Sorry, I'm already a Pastafarian and a follower of the IPU.

 

[Dleg]

I worked out the details of my Church of the Grand Theft Auto plan last night in my head (boring night - everyone else fell asleep early).

But now that csb's come up with an unbeatable advertising pitch for the Church of the Trench, I may need to to shift gears.

 

[csb]

Sweet! My MBA wasn't a waste.