Road Guy
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Marketing shouldnt be driving the engineering decisions, but there are really good engineers who just cant ever seem to finish a project, so thats why you have project managers to manage specific tasks.
MBA's & Engineers--Why does Engineering take a Backseat to Marketing
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I think this thread is a prime example of why MBAs usually end up above us engineers. Here we tried to discuss an issue, and ended up in a side argument about whether CFLs are worse or better than incandescents or LEDs.
VoltsNWater
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Dleg: Thank you.
We may need a separate thread on CFL, because it seems like a lot of folks may have a little bit of misinformation. HOWEVER, my point wasn't to discuss CFL. I was trying to make the point that the Edison style bulb is still widely used today and that it was a "market push" product. At the time it was developed, most folks thought it was okay to go to bed or get up and work according to the daylight, with some gas lamps for larger cities. This product was developed 100 years ago, technology has advanced, major improvements have occured, with myriad choices for light bulbs, but we still use the same product that was pushed onto the market with very little thought about its design vis-a-vis marketing. My point was that you can go into a big box and have a lot more variety of Edison style inandescents than any other technology.
Look, I get it. Sometimes, we engineers lack focus on business. Sometimes, we need someone to say "Hey geek your design is good enough. You've spent enough time on this, move on so I can sell the product." I get that and agree. My problem is that I've worked in 3 different industries, in lots of great places and it seems that engineering, more often than not, takes a backseat to business. A lot of us go get our engineering management degree or go to the nearest university that will accomdate our busy schedule and get ...ok I can't type it...those three nasty letters that say we are diversified and can talk intelligently to people outside of the design/build/manufacture/test envrionment. We learn about marketing, project management, entrepeneurship, economics for engineers....all good classes. When push comes to shove, at all three companies I've had the pleasure to work for, we end up doing the bidding of our colleagues that have only those three nasty letters. We end up letting "cheaper" outweigh "more efficient." We yield to the pressures of marketing, instead of thinking about life-cycle costs. And we yield, because we want to get paid and we want to move higher in middle-management.
My rant is this, not CFL versus incand: When push comes to shove, why are we more motivated by a better slot in middle-management than by designing the product we believe in? Why are we always the smartest folks that make the least money and have the least control of our destiny? (Take a look at WSJ regarding Goldman Sachs et al, think about your average design engineer versus a practicing plastic surgeon or senior associate at a law firm) Why?
The answer for me is that I am motivated by the work I do. I love engineering. I don't love or envy being a "sell out". I would rather love what I do and come to work with a smile everyday than come home with a butt load of money. I would think that in general (I'm making a generalization and I know it) most people in the engineering are motivated by other things than cash. Why would we bother with engineering? We could have easily gone the business path in school but we didn't.
I work in the utility industry and we are totally focused on life cycle cost. For us its the operation and maintenance costs that eat us alive. So I guess the cheaper is better does not apply to all industries.
I work in the utility industry and we are totally focused on life cycle cost. For us its the operation and maintenance costs that eat us alive. So I guess the cheaper is better does not apply to all industries.
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Capt Worley PE
Run silent, run deep
Because there are many.many more engineers in the US than there are plastic surgeons or senior associates at law firms.
That's pretty much my take on it. I don't want to be in management.
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csb
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I have MBA after my name because I love problem solving, but hate design. I didn't want to get pigeonholed in my current spot.
Plus, it was an easy degree!
Plus, it was an easy degree!
Slugger926
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Slugger926
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$295 per credit hour from Oklahoma State University or somewhere around $600 per credit hour for out of state students taking the distance learning classes. The in classroom classes are around $240 or so for in state students. The classes are identical, and I take several of my exams in the OSU Testing facility. One thing nice about the distance learning classes is that for most of them I have a digital copy of all of the lectures for future reference.
The MSETM degree I completed only required 32 hours. A professional MBA is 36 hours and a full MBA is 48 credit hours. Since overlap and strategical class selections, I will have the full MBA on top of the MSETM degree.
One reason I believe grad school is easier now is that I am more mature, and focused on taking care of business. The 1 hour Industrial Engineering classes that I took in the MSETM program I finished last summer are equivalent to the work required in an 3 hour MBA class. Also, the non engineering students don't think in the logical and strategical sense that engineers do, so it is easier to outperform them for better grades in analytical and strategical classes.
I should be finishing an MBA up by Spring or Summer of 2011.
I have a recruiter that has targeted me for a Sr. VP positions for another Company, so all of this grad school stuff does open doors. I have already done two phone interviews and waiting on a decision for an in person interview. The current VP's for this company have salaries in the 400 to 600K range per yahoo finance. That is a big bump in salary from the peon level, but I have seen several directors and VP's inside Verizon make those same jumps after getting an MBA on top of an engineering degree. It does require switching companies though.
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csb
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Mine was $18K from Norwich University in Vermont, done mostly online with a week residency. Work picked up 75% of that cost.
I said it was easy, because compared to undergrad where you have hours and hours of calcs to bang out each night, MBA is mostly writing and the math is easy excel kind of stuff. Finance and operations are easy classes for an engineer, like Slugger said. It was actually pretty enjoyable for me and on par with doing a sudoku puzzle...just enough challenge to still be enjoyable.
I said it was easy, because compared to undergrad where you have hours and hours of calcs to bang out each night, MBA is mostly writing and the math is easy excel kind of stuff. Finance and operations are easy classes for an engineer, like Slugger said. It was actually pretty enjoyable for me and on par with doing a sudoku puzzle...just enough challenge to still be enjoyable.
RIP - VTEnviro
His Memory Eternal
^I started classes at UMass last week, going back for Week 2 tonight. $680 a credit and on my dime, but still should be worth it in the long run.
I'm amazed by how much discussion and interaction the class is, and a complete lack of math. It's a 4 credit class so it should be a lot of work, but not quite the same leve of complexity as grad eng classes were.
I'm amazed by how much discussion and interaction the class is, and a complete lack of math. It's a 4 credit class so it should be a lot of work, but not quite the same leve of complexity as grad eng classes were.
Slugger926
Well-known member
The class with the most work for me was a Small Business Entrepreneurship class ran by an engineering and business PHD at Lockheed Martin. He is in charge of helping companies get created from the cool stuff they invent in the Skunkworks.
He divided us up into teams, and we had to create a business plan, and try to launche a business. There are a lot of details to iron out in even a simple business that buys one product, processes it, and sells the new product.
benbo
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I have an MS in IS that I got from a business school, and it is basically the same as an MBA (they pretty much gave us a choice on which we wanted). I really liked it, and it is easy, and I was the top student. I was always in the middle in engineering school. But I don't use it at all. And I am no entrepreneur - I don't think they can really teach you that, although they can show you the nuts and bolts.
Let me just say that if you are going to land a half-million dollar salary job, it is likely because of something else in your work history rather than just the MBA. MBAs are pretty much a dime a dozen, so you really have to distinguish yourself otherwise to get a job like that.
Both my Sister and her husband graduated from Dartmouth, and her husband has a Wharton MBA, and she has one from UTA, which is also top twenty (I think). He probably makes around 250K as a bank VP but he's worked there for years. She is a school librarian.
My kid brother's best friend, who I tormented through high-school, got an MBA from SDSU. He now is the CFO from a REIT, and probably pulls in around 300K. But he got the job because of his work as a CPA for a top four accounting firm.
My roommate at UCSD got an MBA, I'm not sure where. He is the CFO for some bigtime company, and he makes around 400K, but this again is based on his work experience more than the MBA.
And of course, most of the guys make their real money on bonuses and stock options, not salary.
So, just don't expect getting an MBA to catapault you to the big leagues. It can't hurt, but you will likely need something else.
Let me just say that if you are going to land a half-million dollar salary job, it is likely because of something else in your work history rather than just the MBA. MBAs are pretty much a dime a dozen, so you really have to distinguish yourself otherwise to get a job like that.
Both my Sister and her husband graduated from Dartmouth, and her husband has a Wharton MBA, and she has one from UTA, which is also top twenty (I think). He probably makes around 250K as a bank VP but he's worked there for years. She is a school librarian.
My kid brother's best friend, who I tormented through high-school, got an MBA from SDSU. He now is the CFO from a REIT, and probably pulls in around 300K. But he got the job because of his work as a CPA for a top four accounting firm.
My roommate at UCSD got an MBA, I'm not sure where. He is the CFO for some bigtime company, and he makes around 400K, but this again is based on his work experience more than the MBA.
And of course, most of the guys make their real money on bonuses and stock options, not salary.
So, just don't expect getting an MBA to catapault you to the big leagues. It can't hurt, but you will likely need something else.
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csb
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Why yes, yes I am more desirable than other people. I'm surprised you had to ask.
B)
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Slugger926
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The MBA education only helps open the doors, and put the resume on top of the pile. You still need some progressive experience or special experience that others in the pile do not have.
I agree with you on the big leagues thing. I know several people that have MBA's but haven't tried to do anything different with their careers so are basically still working as an engineer would 2 or 3 years out of school.
I try to strive for continuous improvement and networking.
I have done a few special projects showing that I can work with multiple departments, but my Sr. Manager doesn't like those sorta things because he prefers to be the gatekeeper that is trying to cut more headcount at our office than at other offices. It doesn't look good to have stars in the office you are trying to get rid of.
The big thing that has got me on top of the list is that I have been involved in multiple mergers on both sides of the merger, and this company is looking for a leader that can get two companies to mesh together.
I find it funny that I am more valued outside the company I work for than inside the company.
Slugger926
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I would say yes. The MBA was originally developed to give engineers business skills. An MBA on top of another Business degree is just more of the same, and may only be a stepping stone for a PhD.
benbo
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Being able to work on mergers is a unique thing. It's like my friend who makes 400K. He was involved raising capital for several IPOs. Not many MBAs have that on their resume. He's a proven commodity, and they wouldn't care is all he had was a BA in English Lit.
Even if people strive to do something with their MBA, making half a million dollar salary is not going to happen for 99.999% of them. That's a lot of money. Especially in this economy.
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Slugger926
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Are you sure you aren't an entrepreneur? Per my econ class, entrepreneurs are "organizers" that pull materials and manpower together to create products to be sold. That is exactly what engineers do.
Starting a business on top of that can be learned, but there are a lot of hoops that need to be gone through such as registering a business, getting tax ID, ect.....
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