Florida PE's

[NSEARCH]

:brick:

 

[rleon82]

I was away from home this weekend. I guess no paperwork came in the mail on Saturday. More... :brick:

 

[DrFranz]

I have a former coworker that has been in the business for the last 25 years. He needs a design professional to Sign and Seal all his work. He used to work for my former boss but now that our former boss is gone to bigger and better things, the former coworker needs my certification capabilities.
The work finds him and he needs me. It is a great system, he does the majority of the work, I review it, Certify it, then split the fees with him. That is a great deal.

This is all done on the side, I am too busy with my current employer to do anything else.

Hopefully that was not too confusing.

Rleon, out.

I had a similar offer from a former co-worker... the only issue I have is the comfort level... since he doesn't have a license (not even the EI), if he screws up or misses something in a test, or coocks the results to make a failing test pass nothing happens to him, but my license goes to hell... :blink:

 

[rleon82]

I will make sure I check and double check all his work.

 

[NSEARCH]

Will this week be THE week? Survey says.......NO!! :brick:

 

[rleon82]

Nothing in the box today. Maybe tomorrow? LOL!!!

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

I will make sure I check and double check all his work.

I'm assuming you've read through the Florida code to make sure you are following the rules and regs of stamping drawings, etc.?

I'm not sure what the rules are in Florida regarding being in "reasonable charge" but of the states I have my PE in, I don't think what you are doing would qualify.

I'm not preachin'. I'm just saying be careful.

 

[rleon82]

That's why I am not signing and sealing anthing until the Wall Certificate comes in the mail. Tomorrow I finally sign my first Preliminary Plat Site Plan Application and Stormwater Drainage Report. With my new firm of course. :???:

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

That's why I am not signing and sealing anthing until the Wall Certificate comes in the mail.? Tomorrow I finally sign my first Preliminary Plat Site Plan Application and Stormwater Drainage Report.? With my new firm of course. :???:

Just because I care (plus I was a little bored last night), I went on the Florida board's website and looked up definition of "responsible charge". Here's a link to the Florida Administrative Code and here's the excerpt on responsible charge:

61G15, Florida Administrative Code

(1) ?Responsible Charge? shall mean that degree of control an engineer is required to maintain over engineering decisions made personally or by others over which the engineer exercises supervisory direction and control authority. The engineer in responsible charge is the Engineer of Record as defined in subsection 61G15-30.002(1), F.A.C.

(a) The degree of control necessary for the Engineer of Record shall be such that the engineer:

1. Personally makes engineering decisions or reviews and approves proposed decisions prior to their implementation, including the consideration of alternatives, whenever engineering decisions which could affect the health, safety and welfare of the public are made. In making said engineering decisions, the engineer shall be physically present or, if not physically present, be available in a reasonable period of time, through the use of electronic communication devices, such as electronic mail, videoconferencing, teleconferencing, computer networking, or via facsimile transmission.

2. Judges the validity and applicability of recommendations prior to their incorporation into the work, including the qualifications of those making the recommendations.

( B ) Engineering decisions which must be made by and are the responsibility of the Engineer of Record are those decisions concerning permanent or temporary work which could create a danger to the health, safety, and welfare of the public, such as, but not limited to, the following:

1. The selection of engineering alternatives to be investigated and the comparison of alternatives for engineering works.

2. The selection or development of design standards or methods, and materials to be used.

3. The selection or development of techniques or methods of testing to be used in evaluating materials or completed works, either new or existing.

4. The development and control of operating and maintenance procedures.

© As a test to evaluate whether an engineer is the Engineer of Record, the following shall be considered:

1. The engineer shall be capable of answering questions relevant to the engineering decisions made during the engineer?s work on the project, in sufficient detail as to leave little doubt as to the engineer?s proficiency for the work performed and involvement in said work. It is not necessary to defend decisions as in an adversary situation, but only to demonstrate that the engineer in responsible charge made them and possessed sufficient knowledge of the project to make them. Examples of questions to be answered by the engineer could relate to criteria for design, applicable codes and standards, methods of analysis, selection of materials and systems, economics of alternatesolutions, and environmental considerations. The individuals should be able to clearly define the span and degree of control and how it was exercised and to demonstrate that the engineer was answerable within said span and degree of control necessary for the engineering work done.

2. The engineer shall be completely in charge of, and satisfied with, the engineering aspects of the project.

3. The engineer shall have the ability to review design work at any time during the development of the project and shall be available to exercise judgment in reviewing these documents.

4. The engineer shall have personal knowledge of the technical abilities of the technical personnel doing the work and be satisfied that these capabilities are sufficient for the performance of the work.

(d) The term ?responsible charge? relates to engineering decisions within the purview of the Professional Engineers Act and does not refer to management control in a hierarchy of professional engineers except as each of the individuals in the hierarchy exercises independent engineering judgement and thus responsible charge. It does not refer to administrative and personnel management functions. While an engineer may also have such duties in this position, it should not enhance or decrease one?s status of being in responsible charge of the work. The phrase does not refer to the concept of financial liability.

(2) ?Engineering Design? shall mean that the process of devising a system, component, or process to meet desired needs. It is a decision-making process (often iterative), in which the basic sciences, mathematics, and engineering sciences are applied to convert resources optimally to meet a stated objective. Among the fundamental elements of the design process are the establishment of objectives and criteria, synthesis, analysis, construction, testing and evaluation. Central to the process are the essential and complementary roles of synthesis and analysis. This definition is intended to be interpreted in its broadest sense. In particular the words ?system, component, or process? and ?convert resources optimally? operate to indicate that sociological, economic, aesthetic, legal, ethical, etc., considerations can be included.

(3) The term ?evaluation of engineering works and systems? as used in the definition in the practice of engineering set forth in Chapter 471.005(4)(a), F.S., includes but is not limited to services provided by testing laboratories involving the following:

(a) The planning and implementation of any investigation or testing program for the purpose of developing design criteria either by an engineering testing laboratory or other professional engineers.

(B) The planning or implementation of any investigation, inspection or testing program for the purpose of determining the causes of failures.

? The preparation of any report documenting soils or other construction materials test data.

(d) The preparation of any report offering any engineering evaluation, advice or test results, whenever such reports go beyond the tabulation of test data. Reports which document soils or other construction materials test data will be considered as engineering reports.

(e) Services performed by any entity or provided by a testing laboratory for any entity subject to regulation by a state or federal regulatory agency which enforces standards as to testing shall be exempt from this rule except where the services otherwise would require the participation of a professional engineer.

(4) ?Certification? shall mean a statement signed and/or sealed by a professional engineer representing that the engineering services addressed therein, as defined in Section 471.005(6), F.S., have been performed by the professional engineer, and based upon the professional engineer?s knowledge, information and belief, and in accordance with commonly accepted procedures consistent with applicable standards of practice, and is not a guaranty or warranty, either expressed or implied.

(5) ?FEMC? shall mean the Florida Engineers Management Corporation, created in Section 471.038(3), F.S.

 

[DVINNY]

uh, what's that all mean?

 

[NSEARCH]

Basically that the engineer of record needs to be involved during the entire design process, not just receiving a set of plans reviewing them and then signing and sealing them. In my years of working I've learned that the engineers who do that are labeled as "rubberstampers" and are looked down upon by their peers.

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

uh, what's that all mean?

The way I read it, bottom line is that they frown on people taking other engineers' work, checking it, and sealing it. They want you to be involved in decision making from the start.

One of the states I'm registered in goes even farther and says you must be direct control of anyone who is working on the design drawings. Checking someone's work on the side would definitely be a no-no.

 

[NSEARCH]

It is technically a no-no but it goes on everyday and in every state. It's also hard for the Boards to define/prove what is "direct control" and if it's been violated. It's definitely a grey area of our engineering ethics.

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

It is technically a no-no but it goes on everyday and in every state.  It's also hard for the Boards to define/prove what is "direct control" and if it's been violated.  It's definitely a grey area of our engineering ethics.

Yes, but if you go to Florida Board website and look at "Disciplinary Action", there have been a number of complaints filed regarding stamping someone else's work.

Florida Board

edit - Dr. Franz is slow!! :wav

 

[DrFranz]

the Florida Board will charge you with stamping if you just review and sign/seal someoneelse's work. You can take a look at the Disciplinary Actions section in the page and will find at least a couple engineers who's licenses have been charged.

 

[NSEARCH]

Like I said......it happens a lot because it's lucrative and the market is there.

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

Like I said......it happens a lot because it's lucrative and the market is there.

Does Florida require a take home ethics exam for the PE or anything like that? I think it was on the PE exam for a while (after I took it) but I heard there are no ethics questions on there anymore.

 

[rleon82]

There is not an ethics course that I know about. I think we had to take an ethics survey as part of the application process.

 

[NSEARCH]

Before approval by the Board to take the exam candidates are required to pass a multiple-choice questionaire that covers many areas within the Florida Administrative Code. The Board also requires engineers (PE's) to complete eight hours of continuing education per renewal cycle. Four of those hours must be related to Florida?s engineering laws and rules and four must relate to the licensee?s area of practice. There are multiple courses available on ethics.

Here is a link to the Study Guide that you are required to pass before the Board will approve your exam application.

Study Guide on Laws and Rules

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

Here is a link to the Study Guide that you are required to pass before the Board will approve your exam application.
Study Guide on Laws and Rules

Well, there were at least 3 or 4 questions in there relating to "responsible charge" and stamping other peoples' work, so no one can say they didn't know it was against the rules.

I guess it's all about risk/reward, choices/consequences.