Comity/Reciprocity Question

[IlPadrino]

What happens if your military experience has nothing to do with engineering?

The preference has nothing to do with engineering experience!

 

[IlPadrino]

The information on this link has nothing to do with the PE exam. This information is about getting a civil service job in the Federal Gov't, and the veteran's preference points that one can get if eligible. The "score" of 70 is not referring to a PE Exam score. It's referring to the "score" of your civil service application.

Yeah... what he said. Veteran's preference for the civil service is an entirely separate issue - it's about giving hiring preference (above those that score better otherwise) to veterans.

 

[IlPadrino]

Like I said, if it puts you ahead in a queue that's one thing, but if it lowers standards then that's a form of discrimination (for the other test takers that get 65-69).

From my perspective, if there's any discrimination to be had, you have it backwards.

Lowering standards for sub-groups happens all the time - the biggest one that comes to mind is the whole ADA... and I doubt anyone would consider *that* discrimination. Just because you help one group doesn't mean you're discriminating against other groups. Otherwise, wouldn't you have to consider the WIC program discriminatory against men?

To hire someone (putting them ahead in a queue) based on veteran's preference might seem discriminatory because the person that loses out can claim they've been treated unfairly.

And, still, the problem with all this might be that discrimination only counts (at least at the federal level) if it's done on the basis of age, disability, national origin, race, religion, genetics or *** (gender). There's no provision for discrimination on the basis of not being a veteran.

 

[squishles10]

That's ridiculous. If they want to give you extra experience credit I'm all for that, but a curve for the military? Just curious, when something you stamp fails, and that one comes out in court, how in the heck do you back that up?

That's like giving you a curve on the SAT- it's standardized for a reason.

Good to know it's not transferable though- that'd really piss me off.

And before I get in big trouble- I work for the military, so reign 'em in.

 

[IlPadrino]

That's ridiculous. If they want to give you extra experience credit I'm all for that, but a curve for the military? Just curious, when something you stamp fails, and that one comes out in court, how in the heck do you back that up?

I understand your perspective but I wonder if it's not a little inconsistent. If I accept the concern about increased risk of failure (which I could easily do) what about the licensed engineer that took five times to pass (with a 60, 55, 64, 59, and 70)? Shouldn't that concern you as well? Still, I think it's a red herring - when something stamped fails, it doesn't matter how they got their license... they're liable all the same.

That's like giving you a curve on the SAT- it's standardized for a reason.

It is *NOT* a curve. It's a state board that has applied a standardized test in a different way. It's no different than how some universities use the SATs differently for some groups under the claim of "diversity".

 

[cocoloco]

Check the Georgia Engineering Board's FAQs:

WOW this is ABSURD! If the objective of the PE exam is to determine minimum competency requirements, are you telling me they allow incompetent people to be licensed just because they played ARMY for a little while??? That is UNFAIR and SUCKS. Dont get me wrong, Ive done 3 Afghanistan tours, one Iraq tour and one Kuwait tour and I didnt ask for no darn clemency. Competence is competence and you should not pass this exam just because you were deployed in the ARMY. NO WAY!!!

 

[MEPE2B]

WOW this is ABSURD! If the objective of the PE exam is to determine minimum competency requirements, are you telling me they allow incompetent people to be licensed just because they played ARMY for a little while??? That is UNFAIR and SUCKS. Dont get me wrong, Ive done 3 Afghanistan tours, one Iraq tour and one Kuwait tour and I didnt ask for no darn clemency. Competence is competence and you should not pass this exam just because you were deployed in the ARMY. NO WAY!!!

I agree with your point. This exam is supposed to determine that an applicant is minimally competent. Although veterans deserve all of our gratitude, this is the wrong way to do it. As a veteran myself, who lives and works in Georgia, I did not even consider applying for those preferance points. To me, that would have tainted my accomplishment.

There are other ways to reward veterans without potentially compromising public safety by licensing someone who couldn't pass the test every other licensee must pass. Would you want surgeon to operate on you, if you knew that he was unable to pass the medical licensing boards on an equal footing with the next guy, but got licensed anyway because of his time in the Army?

If you want to reward a veteran's service, then waive his licensing fee. That would be sensible.

 

[MA_PE]

If you want to reward a veteran's service, then waive his licensing fee. That would be sensible.

I think that's a great idea.

 

[IlPadrino]

I agree with your point. This exam is supposed to determine that an applicant is minimally competent. Although veterans deserve all of our gratitude, this is the wrong way to do it. As a veteran myself, who lives .

.

.

If you want to reward a veteran's service, then waive his licensing fee. That would be sensible.

We don't really know *why* Georgia does it... you're assuming it's a "reward". Maybe it's for another reason. I think the part most everyone is glossing over is that each state is free to choose how they determine competency. Most all accept the NCEES exam cut-score of 70. But they don't have to. If you don't agree with GA's statute and you live and vote there, why not complain to your state government?

 

[MEPE2B]

We don't really know *why* Georgia does it... you're assuming it's a "reward". Maybe it's for another reason. I think the part most everyone is glossing over is that each state is free to choose how they determine competency. Most all accept the NCEES exam cut-score of 70. But they don't have to. If you don't agree with GA's statute and you live and vote their, why not complain to your state government?

True, I don't know why Georgia does it, but I can't think of any good reason. I doubt they do it to punish everyone else. The truth is every state is free to choose their own measure of competency, and I don't think anyone disputes Georgia's right to set their own rules. If the Georgia state government chose, they could decree that anyone with an associates degree in art history could practice professional engineering in Georgia. However, the whole idea of using NCEES's standardized test is to adhere to a uniform, universally accepted standard, based on the determination of minimum competency by the group of professional engineers in the NCEES who develop the test for each discipline. For Georgia to depart from the recommended cut score set by the professional engineers who developed the test, they undermine the inherent legitimacy of the test. You make a good point...being a good citizen, I should voice my disagreement to the Georgia legislature.

 

[IlPadrino]

being a good citizen, I should voice my disagreement to the Georgia legislature.

It'd be interesting if you could get the office of one of your representatives to research the reasoning behind the law!

 

[IlPadrino]

based on the determination of minimum competency by the group of professional engineers in the NCEES who develop the test for each discipline

I think maybe you give too much credit to the NCESS cut score development process... I'm not ready to say an examinee that gets a 65 is incompetent, nor am I ready to say an examinee that gets a 75 is competent. I think the "one cut score fits all" method is flawed, even if it's the only reasonable approach that seems implementable.

 

[MechGuy]

I think that's a great idea.

The VA will actually pay for your test registration fee if you're a veteran... in Texas that's like $250! Good deal...

 

[MEPE2B]

I think maybe you give too much credit to the NCESS cut score development process... I'm not ready to say an examinee that gets a 65 is incompetent, nor am I ready to say an examinee that gets a 75 is competent. I think the "one cut score fits all" method is flawed, even if it's the only reasonable approach that seems implementable.

I agree that any test process has flaws. I just think that the professionals within a field are better able to determine a minimum competency within that field than a group of politicians. That is why legistlatures from most states have the good sense to defer that judgement to the professionals, rather than to substitute their own. You have to set a passing score for that is consistent for all examinees for a test be a fair evaluation. Professional and personal references and experience already have their place in the licensing process; an applicant will most likely not be licensed even if they can score 100% on the exam if all of their supervisers report that they have consitently exercised poor engineering judgement.

If 65 should not be failing in your opinion, how about 60? Is there any particular score where you would draw the line? I personally believe that any competent engineer is able to score a 70 on the exam, if they prepare adequately, even if they have to try more than once.

As to the reason for setting the bar lower for veterans with repect to exam scores...you suggest that it may not be a matter of rewarding the veteran's service, but that the state legislature may have determined that there is something inherent to every veteran's service that will make up for a less than par performance on the licensing exam. I would respectfully disagree with that point of view. If you look at it logically, any engineering experience an applicant has from time in service is already accounted for, and time spent in some non-engineering MOS has no bearing on an engineer's ability to perform competently as an engineer. For example, if I served in the military police, that experience does not better prepare me to practice engineering than if I was a civilian police officer. Don't you think?

 

[MEPE2B]

The VA will actually pay for your test registration fee if you're a veteran... in Texas that's like $250! Good deal...

I wish I had known that. But fortunately for me, my employer reimbursed me for that cost anyway.

 

[CivilPEHopeful]

It's funny in a way how this started by the original poster simply asking if anyone had experienced this before. I never read in his/her post if they were asking if it was right or not. The engineer mainly wanted to know if the reciprocity would work in other states based on how they recieved the original license in GA where it seems this is the only state that recognizes veterans status in licensing. Quite a grapevine here.

:unitedstates:

 

[IlPadrino]

It's funny in a way how this started by the original poster simply asking if anyone had experienced this before. I never read in his/her post if they were asking if it was right or not. The engineer mainly wanted to know if the reciprocity would work in other states based on how they recieved the original license in GA where it seems this is the only state that recognizes veterans status in licensing. Quite a grapevine here.:unitedstates:

We're not exactly known for our abilities to follow a straight line around these parts...

 

[IlPadrino]

If 65 should not be failing in your opinion, how about 60? Is there any particular score where you would draw the line? I personally believe that any competent engineer is able to score a 70 on the exam, if they prepare adequately, even if they have to try more than once.

I believe "minimally competent" is not easy to discern on an exam. I'm *CERTAIN* of this, though... anyone who scores a 65 is capable of scoring a 70 with a reasonable amount of additional effort. But, indeed, I'd say *ANYONE* can pass the exam if they've graduated from a decent school (say, ABET-accredited) and prepared properly - even if if takes five or more attempts.

As to the reason for setting the bar lower for veterans with repect to exam scores...you suggest that it may not be a matter of rewarding the veteran's service, but that the state legislature may have determined that there is something inherent to every veteran's service that will make up for a less than par performance on the licensing exam. I would respectfully disagree with that point of view. If you look at it logically, any engineering experience an applicant has from time in service is already accounted for, and time spent in some non-engineering MOS has no bearing on an engineer's ability to perform competently as an engineer. For example, if I served in the military police, that experience does not better prepare me to practice engineering than if I was a civilian police officer. Don't you think?

I don't know... I think the "education, experience, examination" triad is a little complicated and the "minimally competent" bar is hard to relate.

 

[IlPadrino]

You have to set a passing score for that is consistent for all examinees for a test be a fair evaluation.

You're centering on the passing score... what about the parameters of the examination? Do you think it's unfair that NCEES Special Testing Accomodations? Isn't this reverse discrimination? Or best case, doesn't it change the bar of "minimally competent"?

Just trying to keep this discussion off the straight and narrow...

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

We're not exactly known for our abilities to follow a straight line around these parts...

Show me a message board that does......

I'm surprised this thread hasn't worked its way around to lesbians or a poster comparing another poster to Hitler.....