April 2019 SE Results Thread

[cal91]

The people I took the test with simply recalculated it and the SE at our office suggested that might be what they wanted but agreed it was very poorly worded. 

You did have to recalculate it, but there's a little more to it than that...  but yes it was poorly worded. Spent more time trying to interpret what they wanted than actually calculating what they wanted.

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

Let's just say that there is a reason why the Special Activities Division of the CIA uses solitary confinement on detainees. Suffering alone is far worse than suffering in a group.

Also, NCEES would never allow us to see what was done wrong on the test. The multiple choice questions I'd even say I don't need to see those, since usually the key to answering it correctly is not making a dumb mistake or knowing the correct code reference. The essay questions though.......I'm relatively sure that NCEES graders are somewhere laughing hysterically at us. I've been haunted by problems of administrations past. I was SURE I did them right, but NCEES disagreed.

They are fantastically obtuse in descriptions of what differentiates the "acceptable", "improvement required", and "unacceptable" grades. I think they should simplify the grading system. If you don't pass, they just send you a bill to re-register. If you pass, they send you a free copy of the "practice" exam with "LOL" in permanent marker on the front.

You may be right. After studying seismic detailing and design for 1 and 1/2 years though, I honestly believe that I am far more competent to grade them than they are me. I would bet the grading is so inconsistent as to be laughable. I say this because I know for a FACT engineers that do NOT understand seismic detailing get invites to attend the grading shop. It has happened in my office.

 

[cal91]

Just noticed my vertical exam says results pending, but my lateral exam doesn't. Doubt this means anything, but really hope my exam wasn't misplaced!  What does yours say?

 

[tj_PE]

mine is the same but i don't have lateral

 

[bigirishman]

I wrote lots of little notes like "I messed this up, this should be X instead of Y but no time to fix so I'm just keeping with Y for consistency"

In one of my failed attempts I made a mistake very early on in a basic stiffness calculation.  I noticed it later on but since it was fundamental to the essay question I would have had to redo everything.  So I just added a star at that calc and a note saying I should have done this instead but due to time constraints will continue using what I had calculated.  I received an Acceptable on that problem, so they definitely are fairly lenient.  I always figured their grading was:

Acceptable:  You understand the problem and all the required steps to get each part of the answer (even if you messed up a calc but realized your error)

Improvement Required:  You mostly understood the problem, but may have struggled on a part of it (or really messed up the calcs)

Unacceptable:  Runs the gambit from you were completely lost to you just didn't understand enough of the parts.  Also if you made a really bad assumption or a really poor design choice.

Also, for folks complaining about the grading time.  A couple of tests ago the wait was ridiculously long due to a grading workshop, it happens.  Just keep in the back of your mind that about a week after you find out you passed, you'll have a really hard time remembering this waiting period.  All that frustration just washes away.  Also, you gotta give these graders some slack.  They're mostly folks just like yourselves.  They also have to deal with horrific handwriting (like mine), and have to really try and understand how much a person understands about a topic from a simple question, which is insanely difficult.

As far as a more detailed diagnostic, it's never going to happen.  These questions take a while to come up with and fine tune to make sure they're as clear as possible.  They reuse them a lot, so letting people know more about how they did on specific questions is going to make their lives incredibly difficult, as each test will require a full new round of questions.  Not sure why they don't break down categories by building or bridge though, maybe again to help reduce the chances of figuring out which questions you got right or wrong from the diagnostic.

MAKE SURE YOU LET NCEES KNOW ABOUT ANY QUESTIONS YOU FELT WERE POORLY WORDED, WRONG, AND/OR UNNECESSARILY CONFUSING!!!  They take it seriously, and it may affect your scores.

 

[SE_Hopeful]

Just noticed my vertical exam says results pending, but my lateral exam doesn't. Doubt this means anything, but really hope my exam wasn't misplaced!  What does yours say?

View attachment 12763




 

same here

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

To complain about the terribly worded question, you can send remarks to [email protected]. Does anyone remember exactly which section that was? I think it was problem (3).

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

My lateral exam hasn't changed from exam authorization. They are probably just processing the gravity first due to mailing time. It was completed a day earlier.

 

[cal91]

In one of my failed attempts I made a mistake very early on in a basic stiffness calculation.  I noticed it later on but since it was fundamental to the essay question I would have had to redo everything.  So I just added a star at that calc and a note saying I should have done this instead but due to time constraints will continue using what I had calculated.  I received an Acceptable on that problem, so they definitely are fairly lenient.  I always figured their grading was:

Acceptable:  You understand the problem and all the required steps to get each part of the answer (even if you messed up a calc but realized your error)

Improvement Required:  You mostly understood the problem, but may have struggled on a part of it (or really messed up the calcs)

Unacceptable:  Runs the gambit from you were completely lost to you just didn't understand enough of the parts.  Also if you made a really bad assumption or a really poor design choice.

Also, for folks complaining about the grading time.  A couple of tests ago the wait was ridiculously long due to a grading workshop, it happens.  Just keep in the back of your mind that about a week after you find out you passed, you'll have a really hard time remembering this waiting period.  All that frustration just washes away.  Also, you gotta give these graders some slack.  They're mostly folks just like yourselves.  They also have to deal with horrific handwriting (like mine), and have to really try and understand how much a person understands about a topic from a simple question, which is insanely difficult.

As far as a more detailed diagnostic, it's never going to happen.  These questions take a while to come up with and fine tune to make sure they're as clear as possible.  They reuse them a lot, so letting people know more about how they did on specific questions is going to make their lives incredibly difficult, as each test will require a full new round of questions.  Not sure why they don't break down categories by building or bridge though, maybe again to help reduce the chances of figuring out which questions you got right or wrong from the diagnostic.

MAKE SURE YOU LET NCEES KNOW ABOUT ANY QUESTIONS YOU FELT WERE POORLY WORDED, WRONG, AND/OR UNNECESSARILY CONFUSING!!!  They take it seriously, and it may affect your scores.

So here's what I don't get about NCEES not wanting their secret, reusable, problems to be known. Their reason for doing so (I assume) is so people won't cherry pick and study only problems that they see have been on exams. Okay, this works for new examinees, but then re-testers would have an unfair advantage, because they will likely see problems that they've already been tested on, right?  If you say that the re-testers don't have an unfair advantage, then what's the problem with having new testers see problems that retesters have seen? If you say the re-testers DO have an unfair advantage, then that's, well, unfair. I guess Momma always told me life isn't fair...

 

[SE_Hopeful]

To complain about the terribly worded question, you can send remarks to [email protected]. Does anyone remember exactly which section that was? I think it was problem (3).

It was problem 3 part 2. I believe that I understood what they wanted us to do but I agree that it could have been worded much better.

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

So here's what I don't get about NCEES not wanting their secret, reusable, problems to be known. Their reason for doing so (I assume) is so people won't cherry pick and study only problems that they see have been on exams. Okay, this works for new examinees, but then re-testers would have an unfair advantage, because they will likely see problems that they've already been tested on, right?  If you say that the re-testers don't have an unfair advantage, then what's the problem with having new testers see problems that retesters have seen? If you say the re-testers DO have an unfair advantage, then that's, well, unfair. I guess Momma always told me life isn't fair...

Well the whole system is screwed. This exam was meant for high seismic practitioners and designers of large complex structures. Georgia won't allow anyone to be licensed without this exam now. It was never MEANT to be that way. Silly Georgia.

 

[bigirishman]

So here's what I don't get about NCEES not wanting their secret, reusable, problems to be known. Their reason for doing so (I assume) is so people won't cherry pick and study only problems that they see have been on exams. Okay, this works for new examinees, but then re-testers would have an unfair advantage, because they will likely see problems that they've already been tested on, right?  If you say that the re-testers don't have an unfair advantage, then what's the problem with having new testers see problems that retesters have seen? If you say the re-testers DO have an unfair advantage, then that's, well, unfair. I guess Momma always told me life isn't fair...

That may be oversimplifying it a bit.  You may have seen a problem before, but you:

A) Don't know how you did on it the first time, so you may get it wrong again (in this case recognizing a problem may be a downside)

B) Have likely seen many similar problems if you took practice tests and studied books specifically designed for this exam.  I actually had a question on my last test that I had seen the day before on a practice exam.  Almost word for word, with the the only difference being a single dimension.

Additionally, it's unlikely they're going to repeat the same question in back to back tests.  There's probably an algorithm that prevents that from happening.  So at best a question may appear two or three cycles later.  If you can remember specific questions from that far back, then good on you, you probably deserve the bonus point.

Think of it like this, they probably have a few hundred (maybe even a thousand) questions with lots of small variations.  If they started releasing diagnostics with specific questions, that number would whittle away pretty quickly.  They'd likely need to hire way more test makers to keep the pool of fresh questions up, which would increase the cost of the test even more.

Also, the lateral test seems rigged towards specific structures and areas because the ultimate goal was to eliminate the state exams in WA and CA.  So to appease the strictest you needed to screw over the the others requiring the test.  I can imagine a breaking point in the future, where Illinois, and Georgia, and anywhere else that decides to require this exam are forced with either allowing structural design with a PE (or just getting rid of that weird law in GA regarding which test you can take, which is dumb for many reasons), or they push back hard on NCEES and force them to soften the exam, which will likely force CA and WA back to state exams.  The goal to eliminate those exams was to allow easier license comity.  So it really appears like someone will need to make a hard decision, either NCEES, or the state boards.  CA specifically calls this exam a "mastery" exam, so it stands as bizarre that you need it for very simple structures in some non-seismic states, but I guess that's why I'm not an administrator.

 

[Nathan55]

Something else I find fascinating is the pass rate. If 70% of people will fail, even with your standard NCEES/PPI practice tests, that says a lot. That means when you look at a problem, you have to think (especially in the afternoon) "what will 70% of people who study for this material forget to do?" For the test to be that difficult for practicing engineers, you have to assume that every problem has a crucial trick (or three) in it. 

Sun Tzu seems applicable here: "All warfare (or test taking) is based on deception. When we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive. When we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near."

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

It was problem 3 part 2. I believe that I understood what they wanted us to do but I agree that it could have been worded much better.

But the thing is, you "believe" or you "think." You don't know, and if you don't know, it was a guess. I guessed as well. We should not have to guess in engineering. Guesses cause Regency Hyatt level collapses. If you don't KNOW what they are asking for but reasonably understand the topic, the problem is poorly worded.

 

[Nathan55]

That may be oversimplifying it a bit.  You may have seen a problem before, but you:

A) Don't know how you did on it the first time, so you may get it wrong again (in this case recognizing a problem may be a downside)

B) Have likely seen many similar problems if you took practice tests and studied books specifically designed for this exam.  I actually had a question on my last test that I had seen the day before on a practice exam.  Almost word for word, with the the only difference being a single dimension.

Additionally, it's unlikely they're going to repeat the same question in back to back tests.  There's probably an algorithm that prevents that from happening.  So at best a question may appear two or three cycles later.  If you can remember specific questions from that far back, then good on you, you probably deserve the bonus point.

Think of it like this, they probably have a few hundred (maybe even a thousand) questions with lots of small variations.  If they started releasing diagnostics with specific questions, that number would whittle away pretty quickly.  They'd likely need to hire way more test makers to keep the pool of fresh questions up, which would increase the cost of the test even more.

Also, the lateral test seems rigged towards specific structures and areas because the ultimate goal was to eliminate the state exams in WA and CA.  So to appease the strictest you needed to screw over the the others requiring the test.  I can imagine a breaking point in the future, where Illinois, and Georgia, and anywhere else that decides to require this exam are forced with either allowing structural design with a PE (or just getting rid of that weird law in GA regarding which test you can take, which is dumb for many reasons), or they push back hard on NCEES and force them to soften the exam, which will likely force CA and WA back to state exams.  The goal to eliminate those exams was to allow easier license comity.  So it really appears like someone will need to make a hard decision, either NCEES, or the state boards.  CA specifically calls this exam a "mastery" exam, so it stands as bizarre that you need it for very simple structures in some non-seismic states, but I guess that's why I'm not an administrator.

I'd love to meet an NCEES grader some day. That is basically my life goal. But only after I pass.

"I've been waiting for you, NCEES grader. We meet at last. The circle is now complete. When you last graded my test I was but the learner. Now I am the master."

 

[cal91]

But the thing is, you "believe" or you "think." You don't know, and if you don't know, it was a guess. I guessed as well. We should not have to guess in engineering. Guesses cause Regency Hyatt level collapses. If you don't KNOW what they are asking for but reasonably understand the topic, the problem is poorly worded.

I believe I got that one right as well.  95% sure. There is no question on that exam that I "know" I got right, but maybe I'm 99.9% sure on some of them. In fact, I don't even "know" that life is real. For all I know I'm just a dream in a coma or something. But I'm 99.9% sure that life is real  So is that guessing?

 

[SE_Hopeful]

I believe I got that one right as well.  95% sure. There is no question on that exam that I "know" I got right, but maybe I'm 99.9% sure on some of them. In fact, I don't even "know" that life is real. For all I know I'm just a dream in a coma or something. But I'm 99.9% sure that life is real  So is that guessing?

Same - yeah I am never fully 100% on anything. I am ~90-95% sure on that one as well. It wasn't a blind guess.

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

I believe I got that one right as well.  95% sure. There is no question on that exam that I "know" I got right, but maybe I'm 99.9% sure on some of them. In fact, I don't even "know" that life is real. For all I know I'm just a dream in a coma or something. But I'm 99.9% sure that life is real  So is that guessing?

"I think, therefore, I am" ~ René Descartes. I am certain that I exist in some form or fashion due to the fact my senses and interaction with the world tell me to do so. When I feel pain, I am 100% sure that I felt it. I am 100% sure on over 90% of that exam. I know there are questions that I missed, and there may have been something that I misread, but that problem was worded incorrectly if they anticipated scaling. That is not what I got from it when first reading it and you yourself stated that you did not understand until pondering it for some significant amount of time on an exam where time is the enemy. You shouldn't have to solve riddles for this TRASH test. It should be about engineering knowledge. The problem was flawed, and if it took you more time than instant recognition, assuming you have knowledge of the subject (which I believe I do and it sounds like you do too), the problem needs to be rewritten.

 

[SE_Hopeful]

now shows results pending for me for both exams

 

[cal91]

Me too. Cool beans.