ABET Accreditation Unlawful/Unjust Cutoff Date

[GeoP]

Youngo:..it was the UKEC that setup the Washington Accord with ABET plus four other signatories.  If a signatory accredits a program then ABET will accredit it too...now days there are far more than just six signatories.  My degree is accredited by the UKEC, which is one of the original signatories that set up the Accord.  My degree stayed accredited after the Accord was set up, meaning it didn't just suddenly not meet standards.   Now, why did ABET decide not to accredit thousands of graduates who have already been accredited in their own countries by professional respected signatories who took part in setting up the Accord?  Without spelling it out, who twisted ABET's arm to exclude thousands of experienced engineers, some of whom built iconic brides, skyscrapers, dams and roads around the world?  Who financially benefited from not allowing those qualified and experienced engineers to enter the US market and serve employers and the public?  It is what I hope a lawyer will find out.  Also, employers ask for ABET accreditation, but do they know that potentially they lost out on super-experienced engineers because of this requirement?  Well I know one State that didn't until I was heard.

 

[SE_FL]

From what I understand, class action lawsuits will usually have a sponsor plaintiff that puts up the money for the experienced attorney, then you need at least 30 individuals who were also harmed by the defendant in the same manner. If you can find the 30 individuals you might have a shot. But it seems like you would dedicate more time and money for the lawsuit then to just re-take a portion of your college courses and get your EIT.

If you are interested in doing engineering-type work similar to your past jobs, I know many technicians that perform engineering type work in their private and public sector jobs under the direct supervision of engineers. Yes, those jobs generally offer less money, but at least it can satisfy your passion for engineering in the meantime. By the time you get your additional experience/education you can take and pass the FE and PE relatively quickly. Or at least quicker than trying to get a settlement out of ABET. Keep in mind ABET will likely spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight the lawsuit before they give in. Even if they settle I doubt they will change their policy. They will most likely just give you a check for the value of your assumed lower salary for the next 4 years (minus attorney fees, divided by all plaintiffs). 

Our justice system is very well designed to protect the big guys with deep pockets. It may be possible, but it takes a lot of money and time to change the tide.

I also believe this is very similar to other degreed/certified/licensed professionals like @Road Guy mentioned. I work with two guys that obtained their degrees 30 years ago in South America and their struggle was long and painful, but worth it to live in "Merica, drive oversized pickup trucks, and shoot guns.

 

[ptatohed]

George, I made the spelling corrections you asked for.  I am also moving this thread to General Engineering as it doesn't seem to specifically relate to the PE Exam. 

A few questions....

What is it exactly that you are trying to accomplish that not having an ABET accredited degree prevents you from doing?  I ask because I know a few engineers who are (great) PEs and have no college degree. 

Also, what would it take to turn your non-accredited degree into an accredited one?  Retaking a few classes?  Retaking 20 classes?  

Have you been working in engineering since graduation?  

 

[Wade_TX]

Our justice system is very well designed to protect the big guys with deep pockets. It may be possible, but it takes a lot of money and time to change the tide.

Sad but true with a lot of things.

 

[Road Guy]

Was there some reason they chose 1988? Was there an issue with the schools in the area accreditation before then or was it just an arbitrary date?

Keep in mind there are US schools that are not ABET accredited also.

 

[Wade_TX]

Geo,  Have you contacted ABET to see if they have a statement as to why they do not accredit the degree if the accord does?  I am curious to know if there is something specific that they require that was not specifically offered in 1988 or if there is a process to submit your completed curriculum to see if you meet their standards.  I understand your suspicion about ABET, but I have also never heard of a company or employer relying on one organization to be the judge and jury on a what qualifies as a sound engineering degree.  I can see where this raises some red flags. Again, I haven't done a lot of research on this, but it does spark my curiosity. 

I hope you see the need for this local accreditation board.  You are right about bridges, buildings and other infrastructure getting built all over the world, but that does not always mean it is up to American standards.  As an example, if a skyscraper gets designed by a licensed engineer in a fictional country like ANIHC, that does not automatically qualify the engineer to practice in the US. I am not in any way saying that the UK or Western Europe does not have sound engineering practices, because that couldn't be farther from the truth, but I am simply stating the importance of the local accreditation.

 

[kevo_55]

 

[envirotex]

@GeoP, I really think you should just gather up your materials and apply for a license.  The State of Texas rules have provisions that account for your situation (see the info below).  The amount of time you will spend trying to develop a class action lawsuit will probably be more than if you just gather up your records and submit them.  The TBPE will work with you and tell you exactly what you need.

Education
You must have earned one of the following degrees or degree combinations:

1) An accredited degree, as described in subparagraphs A & B of this paragraph:
A) Bachelor of Science degree in engineering from an EAC/ABET accredited program in the United States or Board designated equivalents from Canada or Mexico, the Washington Accord, or the list of substantially equivalent as documented by ABET.
B) A Board-approved combination of a Bachelor's degree in one of the mathematical, physical, or engineering sciences and a graduate degree in engineering from a university with an EAC/ABET accredited undergraduate program in the same discipline of engineering.

2) A non-accredited degree as described in subparagraphs A & B of this paragraph:
A) Bachelor's degree in engineering technology from a TAC/ABET accredited program.
B) A Bachelor's or graduate degree in mathematical, physical, or engineering science approved by the Texas Board of Professional Engineers.

All degrees or combination of degrees must have at least:

• 8 hours of math beyond trigonometry (courses such as calculus and differential equations), and
• 20 hours of engineering sciences (courses such as mechanics, thermodynamics, electrical & electronic circuits, materials science, transport phenomena, computer engineering, etc.)

All foreign degrees from countries other than those listed in 1)A) above must have a Foreign Credential Evaluation and must be translated into English.

 

[youngmotivatedengineer]

Was there some reason they chose 1988? Was there an issue with the schools in the area accreditation before then or was it just an arbitrary date?

Keep in mind there are US schools that are not ABET accredited also.

From the research I did, this is just arbitrary date that they set up the Washington Accord. For all countries currently in the Accord, all accredited degrees issued after the validation date is automatically accepted. For degrees issued before that date, it is up to the local authorities to evaluate their education  credits to see if it meets the minimum requirements.

The problem I have with this whole discussion is that there is nothing stopping someone with a degree from 1988 or earlier from being licensed. If their education meets the standards that the US goes by, there should be no issue. If GeoP can't go through the process of submitting education transcript for approval, there's no way he could navigate the US legal system.

 

[Wade_TX]

It is just a discussion right?  Correct me if I am wrong, but this is a great place to get gather information and connect with other engineers.  Who or where else is there a place to ask these questions? I agree that going after ABET will cost way more time and money than it is worth, and hopefully the information provided has shown that there are still any ways of becoming an engineer.  The negativity is whats too damn high

 

[GeoP]

ptatohed:  Thank you for the spelling corrections, they were a little embarrassing.

My degree is already accredited by the Washington Accord and so it should be accredited by ABET.  In 1989 ABET set themselves up in a niche market.  That's very well but they shouldn't have just obliterated everyone else's existing certification from before that date.   Just like in the UK the equivalent of ABET, being the UKEC who also set up the Accord didn't suddenly obliterate my degree accreditation but kept it accredited.   Just like apple can bring out new phones but they can't or shouldn't destroy the existing ones already in circulation.

I just lost a conditional job offer because the employer wanted my degree to be ABET accredited.  This employer based candidates qualification requirements on being ABET accredited, because little did they realize that ABET do not accredit degrees from before 1989.  ABET should have made that clear to employers, as it conflicts with equal opportunity policies.   The Washington Accord is what employers should be following and not ABET.

I intend to get the EIT and then this will be behind me.  However, do you know how hard it was from me to find a state board that will let me take the FE exam without ABET accreditation?  Again because they don't know that ABET have excluded everyone from before 1989 and not because my degree does not meet standards.

Since 1988 I've always been an engineer, it is my profession.

Hope this makes it clearer.

 

[GeoP]

Youngo: If hypothetically speaking I graduated in 1989 and not 1988 then I would be accredited by ABET and I would be working in the job I lost.  However, I still would not have been able to produce transcripts, they simply were not the norm in Europe.  The course I graduated from in 1988 is exactly the same course that ended in 1989.  Even Oxford and Cambridge universities cannot provide graduates with transcripts from prior to a certain date.  Even before 2007 some establishments cannot provide transcripts and this is by ABET accredited programs.

My problem is that I lost a conditional job offer because of not having the ABET accreditation, when actually I should have.  My degree is accredited by the Washington Accord so it should be accredited by ABET, or ABET should advise employers of this discriminating cut-off date they chose to set.

 

[GeoP]

Road Guy: 1989 is when they tried to streamline the proves and they set up the Washington Accord, but what about everyone who graduated before 1989, did they just kill them all?  My university program was already accredited by the equivalent of AEBT in the UK, being the UKEC who also set up the Accord with ABET.  Unlike ABET they didn't just kill my accreditation.

 

[GeoP]

Wade:  If ABET accredit a degree from India now or from the UK in 1989, how does that meet American Standards?  This has nothing to do with it, each country educates their student to their own standards.  I am glad though you mentioned this because now it is even clearer how unfair ABET are being.

Oh yes, I've been in touch with ABET.  The staff member maybe agrees with me, but its only their director who seems stubborn and unwilling to even consider it.  She just says no without even making an effort to be reasonable and address the issue.  At least she should hold a meeting to consider my request, but she just says no.  In fact I have correspondences with ABET about this whole topic.

 

[youngmotivatedengineer]

Wade:  If ABET accredit a degree from India now or from the UK in 1989, how does that meet American Standards?  This has nothing to do with it, each country educates their student to their own standards.  I am glad though you mentioned this because now it is even clearer how unfair ABET are being.

This meets American Standards because once a country joins the Accord they are declaring that their program meets a minimum engineering standard that is acceptable to all members of the Accord. To join the Accord they may have needed to make changes which is why earlier degrees are not automatically accepted.  

 

[GeoP]

Yungo: I noticed this trend with you, just where are you getting your facts or assumptions from?

 

[ptatohed]

ptatohed:  Thank you for the spelling corrections, they were a little embarrassing.

My degree is already accredited by the Washington Accord and so it should be accredited by ABET.  In 1989 ABET set themselves up in a niche market.  That's very well but they shouldn't have just obliterated everyone else's existing certification from before that date.   Just like in the UK the equivalent of ABET, being the UKEC who also set up the Accord didn't suddenly obliterate my degree accreditation but kept it accredited.   Just like apple can bring out new phones but they can't or shouldn't destroy the existing ones already in circulation.

I just lost a conditional job offer because the employer wanted my degree to be ABET accredited.  This employer based candidates qualification requirements on being ABET accredited, because little did they realize that ABET do not accredit degrees from before 1989.  ABET should have made that clear to employers, as it conflicts with equal opportunity policies.   The Washington Accord is what employers should be following and not ABET.

I intend to get the EIT and then this will be behind me.  However, do you know how hard it was from me to find a state board that will let me take the FE exam without ABET accreditation?  Again because they don't know that ABET have excluded everyone from before 1989 and not because my degree does not meet standards.

Since 1988 I've always been an engineer, it is my profession.

Hope this makes it clearer.

George, I asked how much engineering experience you have because (not knowing which state you are in but providing you an example) in CA, you can apply for a waiver of the FE Exam and go straight to the PE Exam (if approved) with 17 years of experience.  http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/flowchart_for_eit_waiver.pdf

 

[GeoP]

 ptatohed: I have almost 30 years experience, basically since I graduated in 1988.  I am aware there are alternative routes to becoming a PE, but I've already set my mind on passing the EIT.  I am not scared of refreshing my academic knowledge and in fact I am find the revision to be going well.  My problem is that I found it hard, till recently, to be allowed to take the FE exam without the ABET accreditation.  Also, while I am determined to succeed with getting the EIT I also have just lost a prestigious job because of the ABET accreditation issue.

 

[GeoP]

SE_FL: 

Thank you as your advice is wise.  Sure I do realize the risk in taking on a big organization, but sometimes even judges have to rule on principle and not money alone, or hopefully at least!  Just look at Apple recently apologizing for slowing down older phones.

I am already set on passing the FE exam and in the middle of revising for it.  The problem was that it took me a long time to find a board that would allow me to the take the FE exam without the ABET accreditation.  Another issue is that in the UK and Europe transcripts were not the norm.  In fact many establishments in the UK can't provide transcripts for programs dating before 2007.  Some of those programs are accredited by ABET, simply because they are accredited by the Washington Accord signatories and happen to be from 1989 onwards, whereas I graduated in 1988.

Also, I do appreciate your advice about the class action procedure.

 

[youngmotivatedengineer]

I understand your determination to go after ABET for the principle. However, with 30 years of engineering experience,  why do you want to subject yourself to having to take the FE exam and PE exam when you can probably get a waiver in many states for the FE exam based on your experience.

In terms of job opportunities your PE or your ability to have PE within a  few months of being hired is much more valuable than someone with just an EIT.