Do you tithe 10%

[goodal]

"The power to tax is the power to destroy."

- Somebody Smart

This is in the works and will be very bad for everyone if the government can tax churches. The church and Press are supposed to be untouchable by the government. They have the Press in their back pocket and already have too much power over the church (political speech not allowed due to tax free status).

 

[mudpuppy]

Seriously? Churches can raise billions of dollars and build megachurches but shouldn't have to contribute to the infrastructure that support them? Taxing churches the same as any other business is fair and doesn't give the government any more power over them than any other business.

Separation of church and state has nothing to do with taxes. The only reason churches are not taxed is because they ostensibly are nonprofit.

 

[knight1fox3]

Seriously? Churches can raise billions of dollars and build megachurches but shouldn't have to contribute to the infrastructure that support them? Taxing churches the same as any other business is fair and doesn't give the government any more power over them than any other business.

Separation of church and state has nothing to do with taxes. The only reason churches are not taxed is because they ostensibly are nonprofit.

MP said exactly what I was thinking. :thumbs:

 

[Ken PE 3.1]

I would venture to guess there are a few churches that don't make billions.

 

[Lumber Jim]

I'd also call government a religion for some...

 

[mudpuppy]

I would venture to guess there are a few churches that don't make billions.

I agree, there are plenty, and I don't begrudge the nonprofit work of churches being untaxed. But there are plenty of churches that use their nonprofit status to accumulate wealth, build ostentatious buildings that burden the public infrastructure, and try to influence politics. These activities shouldn't be untaxed just because they happen to also be a church.

 

[Ken PE 3.1]

Can't argue with that.

 

[Lumber Jim]

I take goodal's point to be in the form of a question: Where does it end once it starts and who is entitled to decide?

Seems to me that tithing isn't just for us church folks anymore...

http://atheists.org/legal/current/IRS

"Please consider making a tax-deductible gift..."

In regard to benefiting the public, I'm just not getting the "love thy neighbor" vibe if it's to be solved in court.

Now, I'm convinced that MP was speaking to what is right and decent but the question remains: Who decides when when they are supposed to be separate?

My vote is for Dleg...

 

[goodal]

Mudpuppy, if I have the power to make you pay me money, do I not have some level of control over you? Maybe a whole lot of control? If the government can silence the Press and the Church, who is left to stop them? The government must not be left in charge of monitoring and limiting itself, because they will not do it. History teaches that over and over. Yes, just like everything else, there are a few examples of ministries that abuse this, but by and large most churches do not have million dollar budgets and do a great deal of good with what little they do have. My church probably takes in a little less than a million a year, but we have a school, prison ministries, missionary projects, ect that we fund and help alot of people. We will be able to do less when the government starts taking "their fair share". When the government takes yours and my money to give to other people, they are saying that they know better how to help people than we do. The epiclly (sp?) failed war on poverty and drugs proves that they do not. Let me keep my money and help who I wish how I wish with it because I guarantee you I can do better with it than they can and waste/squander less.

 

[matt267 PE]

The government must not be left in charge of monitoring and limiting itself, because they will not do it.

I certainly agree with this. But, IMHO, it's not the church's job to control the government. It's our job, and yes, we need the media's help in doing that.

Let me keep my money and help who I wish how I wish with it because I guarantee you I can do better with it than they can and waste/squander less.

+ 1E6

 

[wilheldp_PE]

Can you give me one example of a church regulating the government? Sure, some politicians are religious, but that is not likely to change if churches lose their tax-exempt status. I don't make the leap between taxation of churches and government gaining more power.

 

[matt267 PE]

wilheld,

I am NOT choosing sides in this argument. But, here is a local example of the church trying to control politics.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/22/kennedy.abortion/index.html

Rhode Island's top Roman Catholic leader has asked Rep. Patrick Kennedy to stop taking Communion over his support for abortion rights, the diocese said Sunday.

In a statement issued Sunday, Providence Bishop Thomas Tobin said he told Kennedy in February 2007 that it would be "inappropriate" for him to continue receiving the fundamental Catholic sacrament, "and I now ask respectfully that you refrain from doing so."

 

[goodal]

Can you give me one example of a church regulating the government? Sure, some politicians are religious, but that is not likely to change if churches lose their tax-exempt status. I don't make the leap between taxation of churches and government gaining more power.

I didn't mean to say it regulated government, just that it is outside of government and should be able to criticize or say whatever it wants about it (aside from inciting revolution). As far as your last question, i don't see how you CAN'T see that. If I can make you pay me money or fine you when you don't or fine you when you say something I don't like, then I own you. Same thing with taxation.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

If I can make you pay me money or fine you when you don't or fine you when you say something I don't like, then I own you. Same thing with taxation.

Using that same argument, every single person in a church is owned/controlled by the government, so how much of a leap is it if the church itself is also taxed?

 

[Lumber Jim]

If a person is Catholic and doesn't support the sanctity of life then he/she shouldn't be receiving communion. Being a public figure has no bearing.

By the way, Kennedy made it public through our wonderful media...

How did you turn that into the church controlling politics?

 

[engineergurl]

If a person is Catholic and doesn't support the sanctity of life then he/she shouldn't be receiving communion. Being a public figure has no bearing.

By the way, Kennedy made it public through our wonderful media...

OHow did you turn that into the church controlling politics?

Sometimes when I want to respond, I just have to wait I'd Jim to say what I am thinking.

 

[mudpuppy]

If a church catches on fire, the fire dept is going to show up. If someone breaks into the church and steals from it, the police are going to show up. If there's a pothole in the street at the church, the city/county will fill it in. But the church generally doesn't pay a dime for any of this. The only point I'm trying to make is the church should pay their fair share of this stuff.

 

[matt267 PE]

How did you turn that into the church controlling politics?

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, I don't know. Over the years, Tobin has proven to be very outspoken in the media concerning political positions/policies/elections etc. Whether I agree with him or not, it always catches my attention and sometimes it feels like he is lobbying.

And I'm likely going to step in a pile of shit here, but:

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Charities,-Churches-and-Politics

Currently, the law prohibits political campaign activity by charities and churches by defining a 501©(3) organization as one "which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."

And then this: http://ripr.org/post/bishop-tobin-blasts-raimondo-advises-catholics-how-vote

To be honest, I don't know how to feel about his outspokenness and flirting with the "line." I was raised Roman Catholic and many of my personal views are in alignment with the Church's. I just wonder how I would feel if an influential leader from some other religion, that didn't align with my views/beliefs, started getting involved in politics and campaigns.

 

[goodal]

If a church catches on fire, the fire dept is going to show up. If someone breaks into the church and steals from it, the police are going to show up. If there's a pothole in the street at the church, the city/county will fill it in. But the church generally doesn't pay a dime for any of this. The only point I'm trying to make is the church should pay their fair share of this stuff.

I think those are bad examples. All of those services are paid for by the citizens that go to that church, which already pay taxes. What the church runs on is a % of those same citizens income. The church doesn't generate income, it operates off of donations. So wouldn't taxing a church's donations be double taxation? Keep in mind I'm an engineer and not an accountant.

Oh and not to mention that MOST churches entire purpose for existing is to give back to the community. So in a very real sense they are "paying their fair share" and more.

 

[Ken PE 3.1]

Can we not agree that most churches are not the same as the mega churches that do actually generate income?