The famous cut score

[J-Dubbs]

I think my point has gotten lost b/c I did not do a good job explaining.

Let say 5 questions (out of 80) are thrown out before scoring the exam and an arbitrary (I am making this up) score of 53 correct (after problems removed) is chosen as the passing # for this exam.

If you had 54 questions correct (before the 5 problems were removed) but 2 of the 54 originally correct were thrown out, your correct score # is 52 = fail.

If you had 54 questions correct (before the 5 problems were removed) and 0 of the 54 originally correct were thrown out, your correct score # is 54 = pass.

That's what I meant by "if thrown out, hurts your chances of passing."

Bottom line as previously said, get as many correct as possible!

I'm wary to join in here, but I just want to say that this would make no sense for them to grade this way. Not only is it unfair, but it would skew scores in a way that isn't representative of the sample of test-takers. Doing it this way would actively penalize those who got more difficult questions correct. That makes zero sense.

More likely it would be one of two options:

1. The number of questions you answered correctly remains the same, but they reduce the overall number of questions by how many they decided weren't appropriate. So if you originally got 55/80 correct and they threw out 3 questions, you now have a score of 55/77. So your score goes from 69% to 71%.
   
2. They simply give credit to everyone for the questions that were deemed inappropriate for the exam. So if you originally got 55/80, and the 3 questions they threw out were ones you missed, your score is raised to 58/80. So your score goes from 69% to 73%.
   

Either method seems much more fair to me and results in the desired effect of returning credit to examinees for questions they decide should not have been on there for whatever reason.

It's all conjecture of course. You could certainly be right, and there are probably many other ways of curving it that we haven't thought of. But if they're fair about it, I don't see them doing it the way you mentioned.

 

[mudpuppy]

Has NCEES ever said that they "throw out" questions? Or is this one of those urban myths like the infamous "70" is a percentage and not just scale score?

Yes, it is stated in the video.

Not sure where they get their information, but this university claims that if NCEES determines a question is flawed that they give credit to multiple or all answers to that question, which should not work against the test takers. http://ef.engr.utk.edu/ef402-2010-08/feexam/grading.php

I swear I remember reading this elsewhere years ago but I can't find it on NCEES' website any more. It seems like NCEES is trying to become even more opaque about the scoring process.

 

[WR/ENV_Instructor]

@Sapper, pointless maybe ... but since I started this, I want to clear up any confusion.

So if you correctly answered 53 out of 80, and they threw 3 out, then your score is now 53 / 77.

Your assumption above assumes the 3 problems thrown out were incorrect: 53/77 = 68.8%.

Work it the other direction and assume the problems thrown out were correct: 50/77 = 64.9%.

I just don't see the confusion?

... and we've seen evidence just this past May / June that a 56 at least in one case = fail.

This just proves the point that 70% is a myth. Also, don't forget that each State board has the right to ignore the NCEES recommended cut score and adopt a cut score of the own.

 

[WR/ENV_Instructor]

Has NCEES ever said that they "throw out" questions? Or is this one of those urban myths like the infamous "70" is a percentage and not just scale score?

Yes, it is stated in the video.

Not sure where they get their information, but this university claims that if NCEES determines a question is flawed that they give credit to multiple or all answers to that question, which should not work against the test takers. http://ef.engr.utk.edu/ef402-2010-08/feexam/grading.php

There are two ideas of flawed to be considered:

1) If the problem was say ambigious where say two answers could be argued and deemed correct, they may give everyone credit.

2) If considered "compromised" then nobody will get credit.

 

[ptatohed]

I think my point has gotten lost b/c I did not do a good job explaining.

Let say 5 questions (out of 80) are thrown out before scoring the exam and an arbitrary (I am making this up) score of 53 correct (after problems removed) is chosen as the passing # for this exam.

If you had 54 questions correct (before the 5 problems were removed) but 2 of the 54 originally correct were thrown out, your correct score # is 52 = fail.

If you had 54 questions correct (before the 5 problems were removed) and 0 of the 54 originally correct were thrown out, your correct score # is 54 = pass.

That's what I meant by "if thrown out, hurts your chances of passing."

Bottom line as previously said, get as many correct as possible!

I'm wary to join in here, but I just want to say that this would make no sense for them to grade this way. Not only is it unfair, but it would skew scores in a way that isn't representative of the sample of test-takers. Doing it this way would actively penalize those who got more difficult questions correct. That makes zero sense.

More likely it would be one of two options:

1. The number of questions you answered correctly remains the same, but they reduce the overall number of questions by how many they decided weren't appropriate. So if you originally got 55/80 correct and they threw out 3 questions, you now have a score of 55/77. So your score goes from 69% to 71%.
   
2. They simply give credit to everyone for the questions that were deemed inappropriate for the exam. So if you originally got 55/80, and the 3 questions they threw out were ones you missed, your score is raised to 58/80. So your score goes from 69% to 73%.
   

Either method seems much more fair to me and results in the desired effect of returning credit to examinees for questions they decide should not have been on there for whatever reason.

It's all conjecture of course. You could certainly be right, and there are probably many other ways of curving it that we haven't thought of. But if they're fair about it, I don't see them doing it the way you mentioned.

I doubt as many as 5 problems are thrown out. These are professional grade problems written by professionals. I suspect that 0, maybe 1, tops 2, might be removed for various reasons.

I don't think throwing out a problem hurts somone who got a more difficult problem correct. If it's thrown out, it is likely due to it being defective, not because it was just hard. Even if someone is a good enough test taker to get a very difficult problem correct, but it ends up being thrown out, I'm sure they did well enough elsewhere, they should be fine.

 

[Sapper PE LS]

Harry. I'm not confused at all. You are simply not stopping to consider the opposing viewpoint. What part of correct answers are not penalized are you missing here?

 

[Dexman PE PMP]

Cut the guy some slack, he's water resources. Most of their math is voodoo anyways. He doesn't know any better.

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

I swear I remember reading this elsewhere years ago but I can't find it on NCEES' website any more. It seems like NCEES is trying to become even more opaque about the scoring process.

They could lay it out from A-Z and show video of every step in the process but there would still be people who wouldn't believe them........ :Chris:

 

[Ramnares P.E.]

 

[thebettersmith]

I think my point has gotten lost b/c I did not do a good job explaining.

Let say 5 questions (out of 80) are thrown out before scoring the exam and an arbitrary (I am making this up) score of 53 correct (after problems removed) is chosen as the passing # for this exam.

If you had 54 questions correct (before the 5 problems were removed) but 2 of the 54 originally correct were thrown out, your correct score # is 52 = fail.

If you had 54 questions correct (before the 5 problems were removed) and 0 of the 54 originally correct were thrown out, your correct score # is 54 = pass.

That's what I meant by "if thrown out, hurts your chances of passing."

Bottom line as previously said, get as many correct as possible!

If you throw problems out, the problems that are left in must have their point value 'increased' if you are going to assume that 80 was the basline for scoring each question - if 70% is the ratio that must be met than your chances of passing become slimmer due to the impact of scoring each individual question at the 'increased' point value.. so in a way, the NCEES punishes the test takers by screwing up the exam in such a way that they have to come back and gleefully fix THEIR errors but woefully punish the TEST TAKERS for their mistakes.. not fair at all in my summation.

 

[treborTAMU]

I think a large part of the grade is based on the quality of bubble. A dark impression completely within the lines being the ideal bubble. We are penalized on breaching the bubble perimeter, not applying proper force to accommodate the larger than normal lead diameter, and eraser marks. Cut scores and throwing out problems is just a rumor. You guys will believe anything they tell you.

 

[matt267 PE]

Isn't the thing graded on a bell curve anyway? I think they shift the curve so a certain percent fail.

 

[Ship Wreck PE]

Isn't the thing graded on a bell curve anyway? I think they shift the curve so a certain percent fail.

This sounds like a plan. As long as your group has a large amount of not smart people, you will pass.

 

[Road Guy]

So how does anyone in Missouri pass?

 

[Judowolf PE]

Thanks RG, according to your statement everyone in Missouri is smart and thus no one can pass....

 

[Road Guy]

Sorry how about Kentucky? Can we pick on them?

 

[Judowolf PE]

Lets make it a PCS state at least...

 

[WR/ENV_Instructor]

What part of correct answers are not penalized are you missing here?

@Sapper. My quote was "hurts your chances of passing" in regards to throwing out a problem you got correct.

If NCEES throws our a problem (that nobody is eligible for credit) that you had answered correctly, your correct # of answered problems goes down as does your % of correct answers (55/79 = 69.6% is less than 56/80 = 70.0%) relative to the situation where NCEES throws out a problem you had answered incorrectly, your correct # of answered problems remains the same but ... your % of correct answers actually increases (56/79 = 70.9% is greater than 56/80 = 70.0%.) You are actually penalized in regards to % of correct answers if a problem you marked correct is thrown out from the final tally.

To all those that claim this doesn't seem fair or right, this is exactly what happens when grades are determine via statistics and scored w/o subjectivity. Blame the math/method chosen.

 

[engineergurl]

I wonder if there is actual physical throwing of said problems?

 

[knight1fox3]

I wonder if there is actual physical throwing of said problems?

:dunno: