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How many people were displaced with the 3 gorges dam? It was like millions, right? That was a huge undertaking.

22.5 GW... very impressive.

 
in power, is the scale measured base-10? or does 1 kW = 1024W (like PCs and the 1 GB = 1024 MB)?

edit---"base-10" not "based-10"

 
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OSUguy98 said:
in power, is the scale measured base-10? or does 1 kW = 1024W (like PCs and the 1 GB = 1024 MB)?
edit---"base-10" not "based-10"
Click to expand...

Base 10. Though personally, I'd like to see it rated in hex.

 
jregieng said:
Important Cost-Technology Note:
It takes approximtely 3-units of energy to pump the water vs. 2-units of enegy generation. The feasibility/cost savings is realized and achieved by actively pumping when the baseload draw is at it's nadir (e.g. night). So, while this technology, at face, is not feasible, offsetting the pumping vs. discharging with 'surplus' energy is what makes it happen. Something most people don't seem to take into account when evaluating various alternative.
Click to expand...
I think it's an irony that (on my system at least), it's the low cost of nuclear that make pump-storage economically viable (although coal is also running 24 hours.)
[For the unitiated, you can pump water from the bottom of the dam back up to the top to refill the reservoir at night, allowing you to reuse the hydro the next day during peak hours when it's needed. With nukes and coal running 24 hours and the load way down at night, there is enough cheap energy available to make it cost effective.]

jregieng said:
Wolverine - can you comment/explain 'smart grid' technology in terms of how that plays out on the grid system as well as practicality/feasiblity of implementing/operating?
Click to expand...
At risk of exposing my cynicism, I've heard "Smart-Grid" applied to everything from the proposed 765kV super-grid to residential smart meters, often including the other favorite buzzword "Green Energy". I'm waiting for some politician to start promising "765kV Smart Energy Green Jobs".
Smart meters are communications enabled devices that send data back to the system operator. For reliability, they're great because they give a clear overview of system conditions - no calling in to report a problem. Also, they're useful for real-time pricing and load curtailment for large customers who want to save a buck by reducing load during peak hours, the expensive hours, where their industrial process allows for that.

They are also sold as snake oil by politicians as an efficiency that will reduce power consumption; theoretically possible, but impractical. The premise is that with a smart meter, the public can elect to use less power during peak hours. The reality is that the second time your air-conditioning and fridge cut off at noon in August in the south, the save-the-planet mentality goes out the window for all but the most fervent environmentalists. (cue Jeff Foxworthy voice: "Ta' hell with the planet, I ain't havin' Grandma sweatin' all over my La-Z-Boy no more. Get me a coldbeer."). We see it in industrial customers who, on the 7th curtailment day in a row, must get product out the door, forget the cost of electricity.

Theoretically, if everybody had a magic black box micro-generator on the side of their house, a smart grid would function magnificently to allow reliable energy for everyone through the interconnections. The reality is that electricity is produced by burning stuff to make steam to turn a massive generator, and those are located far away from the load. That's the way dad did it and it's worked pretty well so far.

Smart meters are useful to the utility, which is why we've already installed a million of them - no, literally, one million. They are useful to politicians because few understand what they are, but they sound really cool. They are useless to consumers, unless you think Jimmy Carter's oil conservation program was a big success. Unless you fundamentally change American psychology away from entitlement to cheap, reliable electric power, "Smart-Grid"(IMHO) is just a cool concept being abused as a buzzword for political and financial gain.

Oh, and I'm not sure how putting in more automation creates more jobs?

 
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I think I'm going to start saving wolverine's treateses on power generation and cut them paste them on other boards as necessary.

You explain stuff really well, wolv.

 
Wolverine said:
[For the unitiated, you can pump water from the bottom of the dam back up to the top to refill the reservoir at night, allowing you to reuse the hydro the next day during peak hours when it's needed. With nukes and coal running 24 hours and the load way down at night, there is enough cheap energy available to make it cost effective.]


Oh, and I'm not sure how putting in more automation creates more jobs?
Click to expand...
Ameren's Tom Sauk Reservoir worked pretty good until they had a level indicator go bad... oopsie.

Tom Sauk Reservoir Pics after emptied...

For more jobs, it has to be only a TEMP creation simply to do the installation /setup. Once it on line, if anything, it allows the utility to shed jobs if they had someone manually doing any of it before... My SIL used to be a meter reader for Colorado Public Service until they put in meters that talked to a central distribution office (or some that are too far out, you drive by to get data I think???). She became obsolete.

 
A truck drives down the street and reads our meters by remote now. Put a lot of readers out of work, I'm supposing.

 
Capt Worley PE said:
I think I'm going to start saving wolverine's treateses on power generation and cut them paste them on other boards as necessary.
You explain stuff really well, wolv.
Click to expand...
That's a why I always ask ...

I am waiting for him to say ... "for your ciphinin' pleasure ..."

JR

 
Capt Worley PE said:
I think I'm going to start saving wolverine's treateses on power generation and cut them paste them on other boards as necessary.
You explain stuff really well, wolv.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I have learned a lot from Wolverine's posts and responses.

 
I've learned an awful lot. Being mechanical, I hear a lot of stuff about power generation and the grid that doesn't sound quite kosher, but I don't have the background to figure out and explain why. Wolv's posts have explained a lot to me, in terms I can understand. the guy would make a great writer.

I can hoild my own on solar, but I did a lot of research on it on my own.

 
TouchDown said:
For more jobs, it has to be only a TEMP creation simply to do the installation /setup. Once it on line, if anything, it allows the utility to shed jobs if they had someone manually doing any of it before... My SIL used to be a meter reader for Colorado Public Service until they put in meters that talked to a central distribution office (or some that are too far out, you drive by to get data I think???). She became obsolete.
Click to expand...
The method for reading meters here has gone 'electric' too - the pilot-scale study has started in the town I live in and will be progressively phased to the other customers.

[sarcasm]

I have to say it was a great success. So far, the company has hit the mark every single month - it has been necessary to make a call to get the billing corrected. Every single time. I guess you can say they are CONSISTENT. Heckuva job!!!

[/sarcams]

Capt Worley PE said:
I've learned an awful lot. Being mechanical, I hear a lot of stuff about power generation and the grid that doesn't sound quite kosher, but I don't have the background to figure out and explain why.
Click to expand...
Same here ... talking these things out with the insights of wolvie and a few others who have REALLY, REALLY helped out with understanding the nuances of what is happening behind the scenes.

What is also kinda cool is that I get to learn a little from my job now - I will be taking an employee orientation on Wednesday that covers the following:

  • Energy Overview and History
  • Energy Business Model Part 1
  • Energy Business Model Part 2
  • Fundamentals of Electricity
  • Fundamentals of Natural Gas

If you have any questions - I will be happy to ask the experts. :)

Capt Worley PE said:
Wolv's posts have explained a lot to me, in terms I can understand. the guy would make a great writer.
Click to expand...
+1 on that!!!

JR

 
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wilheldp_PE said:
That's alright, the Sea Shepherds will attack them with butyric acid.
Click to expand...

I can see it now. Metallurgists for the OEMS of ocean turbines frantically doing corrosion studies that they just can't explain.

 
So with ocean turbines... Has anyone figured out how to keep the barnacles off them? Simple problem not so simple solution.

 
^^^ Has anyone figured out how to adequately secure them to a foundation when the ice comes ...

JR

 

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