SE Exam Cut Score Estimate

[TehMightyEngineer]

I posted this for the PPI review course takers but wanted to share it here as well to see if people drew the same conclusion. I went through this forum and gathered as many failing scores as I could find to try to roughly determine the "cut score" that one could typically expect to see on the SE exam. Here is what I found:

On the NCEES website, under "grading", they state the following:

"When an exam is introduced or when its specifications change, a committee of subject-matter experts works with experienced psychometricians (testing experts with a background in statistics) to determine the level of performance that corresponds with minimal competence in that discipline. This becomes the passing score. NCEES does not publish passing scores because they change with each administration. NCEES scores each exam with no predetermined percentage of examinees that should pass or fail. All exams are scored the same way. First-time takers and repeat takers are graded to the same standard.

For subsequent administrations of the exam, statistical equating is used to ensure that this level of performance is consistent across multiple administrations of that exam. Essentially, this means that while the numerical passing score may change with each administration, you are not disadvantaged when one administration of a particular exam is more difficult than another. This process accounts for the 8- to 10-week interval between an exam administration and the release of scores to member licensing boards.

Your exam results are determined by the number of items you answered correctly for the exam in its entirety. There are no minimum requirements for particular sections or topics within an exam. You are not penalized for incorrect answers."

Also note this:

"If the reviews confirm an error in a question, credit may be given for more than one answer."

So, some things are clear:

• The cut score changes from exam to exam.
  
• There is no grading curve.
  
• The exams are graded so that the cut score reflects a consistent difficulty; easier exams will require a higher score to pass than harder exams.
  
• You are scored based on your combined performance on both the morning and afternoon of each day.
  

However, if you get the very harsh words of "unacceptable" on your exam results you will be given a diagnostic report which will grade your morning problems as number answered correctly, and your afternoon problems as either acceptable, improvement required, or unacceptable. No indication of what "improvement required" or "unacceptable" is given.

The following is my own conclusions, which are entirely based on interpretation of limited data and my own assumptions. I could be completely incorrect (but would like to think I'm close).

Based on scores people have reported after failing the SE exam I've developed the following conclusions:

• You need approximately 28-30 on the morning from what I can tell.
  
• If you have a good morning score then you likely need two "acceptable" and two "improvement required" scores for buildings, or two "acceptable" (one of these being the 2 hour problem) and an "improvement required" for bridges.
  
• If you have a less than 30 morning score then you likely need three "acceptable" and one "improvement required" for buildings, or two "acceptable" (one of these being the 2 hour problem) and an "improvement required" for bridges.
  
• As best I can tell, if you get an unacceptable on any of the afternoon problems then you will not pass. Perhaps if you have a near perfect morning score then you may pass but this would be hard to determine based on limited information.
  

This is based 43 vertical and lateral scores that were reported, about 50% buildings and 50% bridges. Most of the bridge reported scores were on the lateral exam, most of the building reported scores were on the vertical.

The highest scores on the morning that still failed were the following:

• 35/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
  
• 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
  
• 32/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
  
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required
  
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
  
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
  
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
  
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable, Unacceptable
  

The highest scores on the afternoon that still failed were as follows (some of these are duplicates from above in highest morning scores):

• 25/30 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable
  
• 22/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Improvement Required
  
• 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
  
• 35/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
  
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required
  
• 28/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required
  

Do those who have taken the exam or done similar estimations agree with my conclusions?

 

[bassplayer45]

This is very close. I personally think (from seeing my results), that 27 is the target. Any form of "un-acceptable" will fail you. I see my 25-40 with all essays passing and was certain I passed the damn thing.  Also, I think they are VERY lenient as far as math and final answers go. They want method and approach.  

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

You might be right as I didn't find any 27+ that didn't have an obvious failing score on the afternoon. I guessed 28 but you're right that it may be lower.

I did see one 27/40 Acceptable, Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required which is why I guessed 28 as the lower bound of the morning scores. However, that could have been an easy year and they bumped up the cut score or those two improvement required may be too poor on the afternoon combined with a marginal morning score. Plus with a 25/40 and all acceptable (that's good enough in my mind) I felt that the 27 seemed too low.

In the end, I'm trying to establish a baseline where SE exam takers can judge how close they are to passing when they take a practice exam. That way if someone gets 26 out of 40 and do well on the afternoon they can feel confident that they just have to work on not making mistakes. Conversely, if someone gets a 20/40 on the sample exam then they clearly have some work to do and need to double down on their studies to get ready in time for the exam. Thus, I figure the slightly more conservative estimate of the cut score is the way to go.

 

[trees]

I had 29/40 in the morning and two acceptable, one unacceptable and one improvement required for building. I failed.

 

[trees]

I think one unacceptable in the afternoon will fail you unless you have extremely high score in the morning.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I agree trees.

 

[User Requested Deletion]

This is interesting, thanks for compiling. Any idea how the practice exam compares to actual? I remember the PE structural afternoon exam seemed quite a bit easier than the real thing. 

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I'd say the NCEES sample exam will be on par with or a little easier than the actual exam. The sample exam is very close though, so you can learn a lot about the difficulty of problems from that.

 

[smahurin]

I think the NCEES practice exams are very indicative of the actual exam difficulty.  Which, really they should be, they are just past test questions from my understanding.  For studying for both the PE Civil/Structural and both SE days I also ordered a PPI practice exam.  These were way harder than the actual exams.  Which I suppose also makes sense, as they are trying to prepare you for the exams.  If you can do well on the much harder PPI practice exams they must reason you'll do well on the easier NCEES exam.  

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

well the pass score for PE is 70, no?

if you have 27/40 in the morning

two acceptable, two need improvement in the afternoon (let's assume 10 for acceptable, 5 for needs improvement, 0 for unacceptable) that's a 30/40

total 57/80 is 71%. that works no?

that seems to be the only logical way to grade this.

I'm not sure, but NCEES has been pretty clear that they adjust the passing score to make sure that exams have equal difficulty (harder exams get lower passing scores). Also, while I think you are somewhat right on your scoring arrangement, it wouldn't explain some of the failing scores. For example; 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable should get you 63/80 or 78% but is a failing score. Most people are fairly convinced that an unacceptable on the afternoon kills any chance at a passing score. Otherwise I think you can figure it's something along the lines of what you proposed.

 

[Mithrandir918]

I'm not sure, but NCEES has been pretty clear that they adjust the passing score to make sure that exams have equal difficulty (harder exams get lower passing scores). Also, while I think you are somewhat right on your scoring arrangement, it wouldn't explain some of the failing scores. For example; 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable should get you 63/80 or 78% but is a failing score. Most people are fairly convinced that an unacceptable on the afternoon kills any chance at a passing score. Otherwise I think you can figure it's something along the lines of what you proposed.

To make it a little more confusing, a thought..  Do the graders in the afternoon know your score from the morning exam?  Due to the subjectivity of grading a written exam and if say you obtained 33/40 in the AM that you could get the benefit of the doubt in the afternoon if you were close to getting a problem wrong.  Again just speculation but it seems there is no way to predict the outcome.  Best way is to just try and get 100% then you dont have to worry.

 

[Lukus]

To make it a little more confusing, a thought..  Do the graders in the afternoon know your score from the morning exam?  Due to the subjectivity of grading a written exam and if say you obtained 33/40 in the AM that you could get the benefit of the doubt in the afternoon if you were close to getting a problem wrong.  Again just speculation but it seems there is no way to predict the outcome.  Best way is to just try and get 100% then you dont have to worry.

I would assume that the PM graders won't know your identity. In fact, your name isn't on your PM answer booklet and you are instructed not to write your name anywhere.  They just have a number on the front.  

 

[Troll]

I posted this for the PPI review course takers but wanted to share it here as well to see if people drew the same conclusion. I went through this forum and gathered as many failing scores as I could find to try to roughly determine the "cut score" that one could typically expect to see on the SE exam. Here is what I found:

On the NCEES website, under "grading", they state the following:

"When an exam is introduced or when its specifications change, a committee of subject-matter experts works with experienced psychometricians (testing experts with a background in statistics) to determine the level of performance that corresponds with minimal competence in that discipline. This becomes the passing score. NCEES does not publish passing scores because they change with each administration. NCEES scores each exam with no predetermined percentage of examinees that should pass or fail. All exams are scored the same way. First-time takers and repeat takers are graded to the same standard.

For subsequent administrations of the exam, statistical equating is used to ensure that this level of performance is consistent across multiple administrations of that exam. Essentially, this means that while the numerical passing score may change with each administration, you are not disadvantaged when one administration of a particular exam is more difficult than another. This process accounts for the 8- to 10-week interval between an exam administration and the release of scores to member licensing boards.

Your exam results are determined by the number of items you answered correctly for the exam in its entirety. There are no minimum requirements for particular sections or topics within an exam. You are not penalized for incorrect answers."

Also note this:

"If the reviews confirm an error in a question, credit may be given for more than one answer."

So, some things are clear:

• The cut score changes from exam to exam.
  
• There is no grading curve.
  
• The exams are graded so that the cut score reflects a consistent difficulty; easier exams will require a higher score to pass than harder exams.
  
• You are scored based on your combined performance on both the morning and afternoon of each day.
  

However, if you get the very harsh words of "unacceptable" on your exam results you will be given a diagnostic report which will grade your morning problems as number answered correctly, and your afternoon problems as either acceptable, improvement required, or unacceptable. No indication of what "improvement required" or "unacceptable" is given.

The following is my own conclusions, which are entirely based on interpretation of limited data and my own assumptions. I could be completely incorrect (but would like to think I'm close).

Based on scores people have reported after failing the SE exam I've developed the following conclusions:

• You need approximately 28-30 on the morning from what I can tell.
  
• If you have a good morning score then you likely need two "acceptable" and two "improvement required" scores for buildings, or two "acceptable" (one of these being the 2 hour problem) and an "improvement required" for bridges.
  
• If you have a less than 30 morning score then you likely need three "acceptable" and one "improvement required" for buildings, or two "acceptable" (one of these being the 2 hour problem) and an "improvement required" for bridges.
  
• As best I can tell, if you get an unacceptable on any of the afternoon problems then you will not pass. Perhaps if you have a near perfect morning score then you may pass but this would be hard to determine based on limited information.
  

This is based 43 vertical and lateral scores that were reported, about 50% buildings and 50% bridges. Most of the bridge reported scores were on the lateral exam, most of the building reported scores were on the vertical.

The highest scores on the morning that still failed were the following:

• 35/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
  
• 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
  
• 32/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
  
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required
  
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
  
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
  
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
  
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable, Unacceptable
  

The highest scores on the afternoon that still failed were as follows (some of these are duplicates from above in highest morning scores):

• 25/30 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable
  
• 22/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Improvement Required
  
• 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
  
• 35/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
  
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required
  
• 28/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required
  

Do those who have taken the exam or done similar estimations agree with my conclusions?

I thought it was 40 questions in the morning, 3 or 4 essay questions in the afternoon for each exam, friday and saturday?

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I thought it was 40 questions in the morning, 3 or 4 essay questions in the afternoon for each exam, friday and saturday?

Where did I say it would be otherwise?

 

[Troll]

Where did I say it would be otherwise?

on the text you typed which i clearly quoted.

you mentioned:

morning scores for 40 questions and 3/4 essays

afternoon scores for 40 questions and 3/4 essays

 

[David Connor SE]

Everyone has the same morning section. It's 40 multiple choice questions. Roughly 30 building questions and 10 bridge questions. 

If you take the buildings exam you will have 4 essay questions, both vertical and lateral exams.

If you take the bridges exam you will have 3 essay questions, both vertical and lateral exams. 

I don't know why they do it that way, maybe because the bridge essay questions don't have masonry or wood, but that is the case. 

 

[Troll]

Everyone has the same morning section. It's 40 multiple choice questions. Roughly 30 building questions and 10 bridge questions. 

If you take the buildings exam you will have 4 essay questions, both vertical and lateral exams.

If you take the bridges exam you will have 3 essay questions, both vertical and lateral exams. 

I don't know why they do it that way, maybe because the bridge essay questions don't have masonry or wood, but that is the case. 

multiple choice in morning, essay in afternoon correct?

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

multiple choice in morning, essay in afternoon correct?

Apparently my earlier reply didn't post.

When I mentioned the highest scores on the morning in my original post I sorted the scores based on the morning scores and posted both the morning and afternoon scores. For the highest scores on the afternoon I did the same thing but sorted by afternoon scores and showed both. I did this because the passing score is some combination of the morning and afternoon and thus you need to look at both.

Plus, if we look at a clearly passing afternoon score you can then determine that the morning caused the failing score and thus try to determine the passing (cut) morning score. Vice versa for determining the afternoon cut score.

And, yes, multiple choice in the morning and essay in the afternoon.

 

[StructuralVFL]

• 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
  

This is a scary thought right here. 83% on morning, 75% on afternoon, and still a failure.

Does anyone have an idea of the differences between "Acceptable", "Improvement Required", or Unacceptable? This is my first time taking the test (this April) so I don't have any personal experience to go from.

Also, just wanted to give a shoutout to Ian.  I'm taking the PPI OnDemand course and feel like I know you, but with it being last Spring's course, I obviously can't chat with the rest during class.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

This is a scary thought right here. 83% on morning, 75% on afternoon, and still a failure.

Does anyone have an idea of the differences between "Acceptable", "Improvement Required", or Unacceptable? This is my first time taking the test (this April) so I don't have any personal experience to go from.

Also, just wanted to give a shoutout to Ian.  I'm taking the PPI OnDemand course and feel like I know you, but with it being last Spring's course, I obviously can't chat with the rest during class.

Thanks StructuralVFL! Hopefully the course is working out for you, last year was a pretty good run with lots of good info. I'm surprised it's the Spring course and not the October course, though.

While I'm obviously knee-deep into this years PPI review course but if you have any questions about something brought up during that course just message me and I'll see what I can do.

Regarding the score; yeah, scary. That score highly convinced me that any unacceptable kills an exam attempt. I don't believe we know for sure but my guess is something like "needs improvement" is you made a minor math error or missed a step but overall the approach was good. Unacceptable seems to be some major flaw in the math or approach or otherwise it wasn't clear that you knew the material.