Question about the CA Civil Survey Exam Specifications

[Maji]

I have Mansour's book on Civil Surveying and borrowed Cuomo's book so that I get to work out some more problems. I saw that Cuomo's book had a chapter dedicated to Astronomical Observations which wasn't dealt in Mansour's book. I also saw Cuomo's book deal extensively with the California Coordinate System including mathematical problems, where as Mansour just dealt with definitions and terms. The US Public Lands System has been dealt extensively in both books. 

My questions are as follows:

1. I looked at the test specifications available on the CA Board's website. http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/plan_civsurvey.pdf . I did not see any explicit reference to Astronomical Observations. Am I missing something here or is that section redundant for the Civil Survey exam purposes?

2. I did not notice any reference to US Public Lands System but did see the following reference -  "K46. Formats and terminology of legal descriptions as it applies to the Business and Professions Code 6731.1." Code 6731.1 defines the various activities that a Civil Engineer can practice and can't. The only thing that I have seen in topographic surveys that refers to Sections, Townships/Ranges etc. are in reference to easements. I have a basic understanding of the system but do I need to study it for the exam? Understanding something and being able to answer questions in a few minutes in an exam are two related but separate items in my mind.

3. California Coordinate System - Can this be interpreted as the requirements shown in the following item? " T14. Use of datums for horizontal and vertical control K48. Different types of horizontal datums K49. Different types of vertical datums (e.g., bench marks)". Basically, I am trying to figure out if I should study it thoroughly or just skim through.

Thank you for your help.

 

[ptatohed]

1.)  Take the fattest red Sharpie you can and put a big red X over everything 'astronomical' and never give the topic a second thought.  If I remember correctly, within that chapter is a totally out of place section about reading maps/plans.  While the section is out of place in that chapter and poorly written, you should know the important aspects of plan and map reading.

2.)  You are thinking correctly here.  Yes, you should understand the basic concepts of the US PLSS (Public Lands Survey System).  Know the dimensions and layout of Quadrangles, Sections, Lots, etc.  Understand the divisions and how to identify them.  Understand fractional parts vs. regular parts. 

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/row/landsurveys/LSITWorkbook/12.pdf

3.)  Just understand the coordinate systems used in today's (primarily CA) surveys and the ones they superseded (what they are called, what they are based on, etc.).  Know a little bit about the differences between them.  I don't think you need to worry about anything too in-depth like converting between two systems. 

Good questions.  Best of luck.       

 

[Maji]

1.)  Take the fattest red Sharpie you can and put a big red X over everything 'astronomical' and never give the topic a second thought.  If I remember correctly, within that chapter is a totally out of place section about reading maps/plans.  While the section is out of place in that chapter and poorly written, you should know the important aspects of plan and map reading.

2.)  You are thinking correctly here.  Yes, you should understand the basic concepts of the US PLSS (Public Lands Survey System).  Know the dimensions and layout of Quadrangles, Sections, Lots, etc.  Understand the divisions and how to identify them.  Understand fractional parts vs. regular parts. 

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/row/landsurveys/LSITWorkbook/12.pdf

3.)  Just understand the coordinate systems used in today's (primarily CA) surveys and the ones they superseded (what they are called, what they are based on, etc.).  Know a little bit about the differences between them.  I don't think you need to worry about anything too in-depth like converting between two systems. 

Good questions.  Best of luck.       

Thank you ptatohed... very much appreciated.

I will study the USPLSS as you suggested. Mansour's book covers that aspect quite well in my opinion. Just for my information, where in the test specs do they say that US PLSS is required knowledge? In fact, as CEs after 1992, we are not allowed to do any surveying work related to property lines/ROW... right? Isn't the US PLSS used primarily to define property lines etc. in meets and bounds description? I believe that all CEs practicing in the USA should know the basics of the USP PLSS. 

 

[ptatohed]

I think what you mentioned in your Post #1... that reading/understanding PLSS is likely in regard to reading/understanding legal descriptions. 

Well, it's true that CEs can not establish PLs/ROW but..... they can locate PLs/ROW/Easements.  Therefore, a basic understanding of legal descriptions is important.           

 

[Maji]

I think what you mentioned in your Post #1... that reading/understanding PLSS is likely in regard to reading legal descriptions. 

Well, it's true that CEs can not establish PLs/ROW but..... they can locate PLs/ROW/Easements.  Therefore, a basic understanding of legal descriptions is important.           

Thank you for your reply and thank you for clearing up the doubt in my mind.... CEs can "locate" PLs/ROW/easement... perhaps one question on the test

 

[ptatohed]

Maji, I found this document helpful.  It is put out by BPELSG.  Look at page 11.  It lists all of the services a PS can perform and which of those services a post '82 RCE can do as well. 

http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/pubs/consumer_guide.pdf

 

[Maji]

Maji, I found this document helpful.  It is put out by BPELSG.  Look at page 11.  It lists all of the services a PS can perform and which of those services a post '82 RCE can do as well. 

http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/pubs/consumer_guide.pdf

Thank you for the document. It can be understood easier than the legalese in the Codes and Acts. I wonder why those can't be written in simple language

 

[CAPLS]

I think what you mentioned in your Post #1... that reading/understanding PLSS is likely in regard to reading legal descriptions. 

Well, it's true that CEs can not establish PLs/ROW but..... they can locate PLs/ROW/Easements.  Therefore, a basic understanding of legal descriptions is important.           

CE's (licensed after December 1981) are not authorized to establish or locate property lines, right-of-way lines, or easements that require the establishment or location of the previous two.

Follow the test plan specifications and not the books written by licensees with good intentions but no actual knowledge of what's on the exams.  You will be tested on what the civil engineer license authorizes you to do under that license and not what practicing civil engineers actually think they can do.

 

[Maji]

CE's (licensed after December 1981) are not authorized to establish or locate property lines, right-of-way lines, or easements that require the establishment or location of the previous two.

Follow the test plan specifications and not the books written by licensees with good intentions but no actual knowledge of what's on the exams.  You will be tested on what the civil engineer license authorizes you to do under that license and not what practicing civil engineers actually think they can do.

Thank you for the clarification. 

 

[ptatohed]

CE's (licensed after December 1981) are not authorized to establish or locate property lines, right-of-way lines, or easements that require the establishment or location of the previous two.

Follow the test plan specifications and not the books written by licensees with good intentions but no actual knowledge of what's on the exams.  You will be tested on what the civil engineer license authorizes you to do under that license and not what practicing civil engineers actually think they can do.

You are right CAP.  In the document I linked Maji to, it clearly lists this as a service only a PLS can perform:  "locate, relocate, establish, reestablish, or retrace any property line or boundary of any parcel of land, right-of-way, easement, or alignment of those lines or boundaries". 

Sorry for the misinformation Maji. 

 

[Maji]

You are right CAP.  In the document I linked Maji to, it clearly lists this as a service only a PLS can perform:  "locate, relocate, establish, reestablish, or retrace any property line or boundary of any parcel of land, right-of-way, easement, or alignment of those lines or boundaries". 

Sorry for the misinformation Maji. 

No problem ptatohed... I just wish the test plan specs were clearer in scope and intent. A prime example is the PLSS requirements. It should have been clearly stated in the specs so there were no doubts or case for misinterpretation. 

 

[CAPLS]

No problem ptatohed... I just wish the test plan specs were clearer in scope and intent. A prime example is the PLSS requirements. It should have been clearly stated in the specs so there were no doubts or case for misinterpretation. 

With all due respect, it is very clear.  It is not included in the test plan specifications.  How much more clear does it need to be said?

 

[ptatohed]

With all due respect, it is very clear.  It is not included in the test plan specifications.  How much more clear does it need to be said?

LOL, CAP takes it personally when one criticizes the Test Plan (or complains about exam fees).  Joking aside, I kind of tend to agree with Maji a little on this one.  Let's take the two topics that we have been discussing.  The US PLSS (Townships, Ranges, Quarter Sections, Fractional Sections, etc.) and the CA State Plane Coordinate System (NAD27/CCS27, NAD83, Lambert Projection, Zones, etc.).  I think (I could be wrong) that these are valid topics to study/understand because they might be tested on the exam.  Well, if so, where specifically are these topics on the outline?  It can be presumed that these topics fall under outline items T13/K46 and T14/K48/K49 but I wouldn’t necessarily call it very clear. 

 

[CAPLS]

LOL, CAP takes it personally when one criticizes the Test Plan (or complains about exam fees).  Joking aside, I kind of tend to agree with Maji a little on this one.  Let's take the two topics that we have been discussing.  The US PLSS (Townships, Ranges, Quarter Sections, Fractional Sections, etc.) and the CA State Plane Coordinate System (NAD27/CCS27, NAD83, Lambert Projection, Zones, etc.).  I think (I could be wrong) that these are valid topics to study/understand because they might be tested on the exam.  Well, if so, where specifically are these topics on the outline?  It can be presumed that these topics fall under outline items T13/K46 and T14/K48/K49 but I wouldn’t necessarily call it very clear. 

I wouldn't go as far as "personally"   What I'm saying is that PLSS and California Coordinate System are terms that are not stated in the test plan specifications.  What that means is that the candidates will only be tested on what IS included.  There is no "might be tested on the exam".  I would agree that T14 (K48/49) includes use of horizontal and vertical control, but if California Coordinate System were to be tested on, that term would have to be specifically mentioned.  Anything beyond knowing there are different datum and generally what they are is a waste of time to study for the exam.  PLSS is not stated anywhere in the document and the exam must meet the requirements of the document (see percentages).

 

[Maji]

With all due respect, it is very clear.  It is not included in the test plan specifications.  How much more clear does it need to be said?

I am sorry but I don't agree with you. Can you please let me know which part of the specifications tell me that our knowledge of PLSS will be tested? I am going to study for it because it is in one the guide books but I don't think the Board's Test specs are clear about it. I have to write/edit specifications extensively as related to various Civil Engineering projects, so I believe that I understand what specs are supposed to do and cover. Specs should be clear and should not create any misunderstandings or make the reader double guess the intent. If I did not read PLSS clearly in the specs, how am I supposed to know that I will be tested on that?

 

[Maji]

I wouldn't go as far as "personally"   What I'm saying is that PLSS and California Coordinate System are terms that are not stated in the test plan specifications.  What that means is that the candidates will only be tested on what IS included.  There is no "might be tested on the exam".  I would agree that T14 (K48/49) includes use of horizontal and vertical control, but if California Coordinate System were to be tested on, that term would have to be specifically mentioned.  Anything beyond knowing there are different datum and generally what they are is a waste of time to study for the exam.  PLSS is not stated anywhere in the document and the exam must meet the requirements of the document (see percentages).

I will not ask anyone to break the law or go against the Board policies. Will it be okay if the members here who have taken the test can state if questions related to PLSS was in the test or not?

 

[Maji]

LOL, CAP takes it personally when one criticizes the Test Plan (or complains about exam fees).  Joking aside, I kind of tend to agree with Maji a little on this one.  Let's take the two topics that we have been discussing.  The US PLSS (Townships, Ranges, Quarter Sections, Fractional Sections, etc.) and the CA State Plane Coordinate System (NAD27/CCS27, NAD83, Lambert Projection, Zones, etc.).  I think (I could be wrong) that these are valid topics to study/understand because they might be tested on the exam.  Well, if so, where specifically are these topics on the outline?  It can be presumed that these topics fall under outline items T13/K46 and T14/K48/K49 but I wouldn’t necessarily call it very clear. 

ptatohed, I actually really appreciate CAPLS taking the time to answer our questions about the exam and exam specs here. I may not like his answer but I have to appreciate his time and effort. 

Thank you to both ptatohed and CAPLS for posting here to help me understand the nuances.

 

[ptatohed]

To CAPLS and Maji....  I don't think this is going too far (gosh I hope not) but I remember a question on my exam (granted, this is back in Oct 2010) that required at least a basic understanding of PLSS.  I think, as an aside to the main question, one had to know the numbering and placement of sections within a township to be able to answer the main question being asked. 

 

[CAPLS]

I am sorry but I don't agree with you. Can you please let me know which part of the specifications tell me that our knowledge of PLSS will be tested? I am going to study for it because it is in one the guide books but I don't think the Board's Test specs are clear about it. I have to write/edit specifications extensively as related to various Civil Engineering projects, so I believe that I understand what specs are supposed to do and cover. Specs should be clear and should not create any misunderstandings or make the reader double guess the intent. If I did not read PLSS clearly in the specs, how am I supposed to know that I will be tested on that?

Maji, It doesn't...there is no part that tells you that PLSS will be tested.  That's what I'm trying to tell you.  PLSS is not even mentioned in the test plan document.  Look for yourself:  http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/plan_civsurvey.pdf

The fact that it is not included on the test plan means that it cannot be tested on.  The exam content must conform to the published test plan specifications.  If it makes you feel better, email [email protected] for an answer to your question.

 

[CAPLS]

To CAPLS and Maji....  I don't think this is going too far (gosh I hope not) but I remember a question on my exam (granted, this is back in Oct 2010) that required at least a basic understanding of PLSS.  I think, as an aside to the main question, one had to know the numbering and placement of sections within a township to be able to answer the main question being asked. 

Yeah ptatohed, the current test plan specifications were approved in November 2011 and first used for the October 2012 exam.  Good reference chart though.