CHANGES I’D LIKE TO SEE IN THE ENGINEERING PROFESSION

[IlPadrino]

Software engineering is not the same as coding. Federal law even decclares software coding as a wage job and cannot be misclassified as salary just because of the high pay.

Software engineering is not the same as engineering. If you want to classify it as a licensed profession, it's certainly closer to architecture than engineering. I'm sure you'd agree these software developers use the word "architecture" a lot more than they use the word "engineering".

Texas has a SWE PE but EE (electrical & computer) PE can cover SWE. Currently they do not offer an exam for SWE and expect to within a year or so. They used to gather experience records and then waive the exam. Since they stopped waivers altogether, it kind of puts the hamper on the PE requirement. Since most SWEs are also EEs they suggest getting an EE PE. Texas does not limit a PE to a discipline but requires them to have experience in that discipline. Not all states are on-board with the SWE like they are for the other disciplines. According to the TBPE, once ~10 states agree, the other states join in.

I imagine it would be NCEES that drives any watershed movement. And given they're all about INCREASING their purview, the cynic in me thinks it will likely go this way... but that doesn't mean I agree with it. If we let in software developers, we've begun down the slippery slope.

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

Software engineering is not the same as engineering.

Do they not have to take Physics or Calculus or Engineering Mechanics? How is it not engineering?

 

[EM_PS]

i agree that software engineering is valid discipline - Really, the older degrees of computer science - we're talking pre-pentium hardware - pretty much followed the exact path of EE or general eng undergrad schedule. At any rate, those grads could have easily taken the FE were they allowed to.

 

[IlPadrino]

Do they not have to take Physics or Calculus or Engineering Mechanics? How is it not engineering?

So do architects and physicists... they ain't engineers, though. Please explain why you think software developers are more like engineers than architects.

 

[IlPadrino]

i agree that software engineering is valid discipline - Really, the older degrees of computer science - we're talking pre-pentium hardware - pretty much followed the exact path of EE or general eng undergrad schedule. At any rate, those grads could have easily taken the FE were they allowed to.

Yes, they surely took general pre-engineering courses. I can tell you, though, from FIRST-HAND experience that the pre-pentium comp-sci majors (I was one of them in the early 1990s!), at my school at least, did NOT follow the path of EE of CSYS undergrads. While we all took the same first two years coursework (as did most everyone at RPI), it went wildly divergent from there.

 

[Slugger926]

So do architects and physicists... they ain't engineers, though. Please explain why you think software developers are more like engineers than architects.

Their programs do have Ergonomic Engineering implecations for their users.

Also, System Safety Engineering, Process Engineering, and Failure Mode and Effects Engineering should be applied in any program that your $$$ rides on, or any data that may affect your life or the life of a corporation. How about the problem where a program may cause traffic lights to turn green, or messes up a 911 call? Peoples lives, identities, and $$$ are at steak by un-licensed engineering being done inside computer networks.

Yes, they should be licensed, or working under a licensed engineer.

 

[IlPadrino]

Also, System Safety Engineering, Process Engineering, and Failure Mode and Effects Engineering should be applied in any program that your $$$ rides on, or any data that may affect your life or the life of a corporation. How about the problem where a program may cause traffic lights to turn green, or messes up a 911 call? Peoples lives, identities, and $$$ are at steak by un-licensed engineering being done inside computer networks.

Control System Engineers may broadly cover most of these use cases.

Yes, they should be licensed, or working under a licensed engineer.

Just because public safety is involved doesn't mean they should be licensed as engineers. Sure, license it... just like cosmetologists are licensed. Or should we call cosmetologists "facial engineers"?

 

[SuperAlpha]

In a medical product there are things to consider in the software side. These would be developed by the engineering team through risk analysys, operation analysis, etc.

1. usability must be thought out and user interfaces must be intuitive and prevent harm due to common-use

2. the safety architecture must be considered

I am sure there are more but those came to my mind first...

 

[Slugger926]

Control System Engineers may broadly cover most of these use cases.


Just because public safety is involved doesn't mean they should be licensed as engineers. Sure, license it... just like cosmetologists are licensed. Or should we call cosmetologists "facial engineers"?

Oklahoma would have to change their Engineering Law if they went with your interpretation. Cosmetologists are not engineering systems that affect the public. Now, the products they used may be required to be engineered.

 

[Slugger926]

In a medical product there are things to consider in the software side. These would be developed by the engineering team through risk analysys, operation analysis, etc.
1. usability must be thought out and user interfaces must be intuitive and prevent harm due to common-use

2. the safety architecture must be considered

I am sure there are more but those came to my mind first...

I found out last semester in Failure Mode and Effects Analysis that the medical industry engages engineers more than almost any other field. Of course, they want to blame any problems on the engineers rather than the doctor or nurse who had too little sleep.

Even the procedures that nurses and doctors follow are scrubbed by Licensed PE's in Industrial Engineering.

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

So do architects and physicists... they ain't engineers, though. Please explain why you think software developers are more like engineers than architects.

It's pretty obvious you already have your mind made up and nothing I say is going to change your mind.

 

[IlPadrino]

It's pretty obvious you already have your mind made up and nothing I say is going to change your mind.

Well, I admit, I won't change my mind for sure if you aren't willing to write "something". But if I wasn't open to new ideas, I wouldn't be spending my time on this thread.

 

[IlPadrino]

Oklahoma would have to change their Engineering Law if they went with your interpretation. Cosmetologists are not engineering systems that affect the public. Now, the products they used may be required to be engineered.

I don't know anything about Oklahoma Engineering Law, but what I meant was that many states (New York comes readily to mind) license most all "professionals" that impact public safety, cosmetologists included. Engineers don't have a monopoly on public safety.

I think we can agree that "engineering" is a pretty broad term... so the devil is in figuring out some boundaries that most everyone can agree on.

I haven't found a good definition for architecture (you'd think it's on the AIA website!), but intuitively software systems (if that's what you want to call teh output of software developers) seem architectural in nature, not engineering.

 

[Slugger926]

I don't know anything about Oklahoma Engineering Law, but what I meant was that many states (New York comes readily to mind) license most all "professionals" that impact public safety, cosmetologists included. Engineers don't have a monopoly on public safety.
I think we can agree that "engineering" is a pretty broad term... so the devil is in figuring out some boundaries that most everyone can agree on.

I haven't found a good definition for architecture (you'd think it's on the AIA website!), but intuitively software systems (if that's what you want to call teh output of software developers) seem architectural in nature, not engineering.

Section 475.2. Definitions:

1. “Engineer” means a person who, by reason of special knowledge and use of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences and the principles and methods of engineering analysis and design, acquired by engineering education and engineering experience, is qualified, after meeting the requirements of Section 475.1 et seq. of this title and the regulations issued by the Board pursuant thereto, to engage in the practice of engineering;

2. “Professional engineer” means a person who has been duly licensed as a professional engineer as provided in Section 475.1 et seq. of this title and the regulations issued by the Board pursuant thereto;

4. “Practice of engineering” means any service or creative work, the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training and experience in the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such services or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning and design of engineering works and systems, planning the engineering use of land and water, teaching of advanced engineering subjects or courses related thereto, engineering research, engineering surveys, engineering studies, and the inspection or review of construction for the purposes of assuring compliance with drawings and specifications; any of which embraces such services or work, either public or private, in connection with any utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, work systems, projects, and industrial or consumer products or equipment of a mechanical, electrical, chemical, environmental, hydraulic, pneumatic or thermal nature, insofar as they involve safeguarding life, health or property, and including such other professional services as may be necessary to the design review and integration of a multidiscipline work, planning, progress and completion of any engineering services.

=====================================================

 

[Slugger926]

Well, I admit, I won't change my mind for sure if you aren't willing to write "something". But if I wasn't open to new ideas, I wouldn't be spending my time on this thread.

There is a big difference between a punk that writes a video game program for a Wii and someone that is going to make sure my stock accounts are safe, or if the control system on an artificial medical system will be safe. There are programmers, and then there are software engineers that need trained on stuff outside of a computer program, and how their programs will affect the public.

Reboot is not an option for a program when someone's life or retirement fund is on the line. Working in Telecom, I have seen a 5 minute reboot cost $5 million dollars on an international currency trade.

The programmer may not need the PE, but the system/program should require oversight of a qualified PE.

 

[DVINNY]

I know little to nothing about these other professions, so I won't comment.

But it is a nice thread to read.

 

[IlPadrino]

There is a big difference between a punk that writes a video game program for a Wii and someone that is going to make sure my stock accounts are safe, or if the control system on an artificial medical system will be safe. There are programmers, and then there are software engineers that need trained on stuff outside of a computer program, and how their programs will affect the public.
Reboot is not an option for a program when someone's life or retirement fund is on the line. Working in Telecom, I have seen a 5 minute reboot cost $5 million dollars on an international currency trade.

The programmer may not need the PE, but the system/program should require oversight of a qualified PE.

I feel like maybe we're going in circles. Control Systems Engineering is already a recognized and licensed discipline in almost all 50 states (48 last time I checked). What else do "programmers" (your word, not mine... I'd choose software developer) need oversight on that isn't covered by the CSEs?

I'm not sure why you're disparaging video game programmers, but as I've written before, I think a programmer is analogous to a construction contractor except for the lack of detailed plans and specs. It doesn't matter what they're programming (video games, web apps (which create risk to your stock account security!), etc.) to me - they're all talented.

 

[IlPadrino]

Section 475.2. Definitions: .

.

.

So you believe computer programmers use "mathematical, physical and engineering sciences" and so should be licensed as a PE? I'll need to think on that for a bit because it would clearly leave out the CompSci guys but include those that graduate from an ABET-accredited software engineer program (which I'm still learning about).

Thanks for the reference.

 

[Slugger926]

I feel like maybe we're going in circles. Control Systems Engineering is already a recognized and licensed discipline in almost all 50 states (48 last time I checked). What else do "programmers" (your word, not mine... I'd choose software developer) need oversight on that isn't covered by the CSEs?
I'm not sure why you're disparaging video game programmers, but as I've written before, I think a programmer is analogous to a construction contractor except for the lack of detailed plans and specs. It doesn't matter what they're programming (video games, web apps (which create risk to your stock account security!), etc.) to me - they're all talented.

 

[Slugger926]

I feel like maybe we're going in circles. Control Systems Engineering is already a recognized and licensed discipline in almost all 50 states (48 last time I checked). What else do "programmers" (your word, not mine... I'd choose software developer) need oversight on that isn't covered by the CSEs?
I'm not sure why you're disparaging video game programmers, but as I've written before, I think a programmer is analogous to a construction contractor except for the lack of detailed plans and specs. It doesn't matter what they're programming (video games, web apps (which create risk to your stock account security!), etc.) to me - they're all talented.

Now we are on the same page. Control Systems Engineering is being done by HS and College dropouts in the name of programing or even software engineering, or even the name of "Cisco Certified Engineer".

Another change I would like to see is more proactive screening by the boards and local law enforcement. If someone does a surgery without the proper medical license, the police will be there to arrest the guy. If someone does illegal engineering services (Aerotek), they get millions in revenue with the slight threat of maybe paying a $500 fine.