Are Engineers Expendable

[rppearso]

Dont let it get your blood pressure up its just a differing of phylosophy. I think that the same admissions standards should hold you should still have to have high GPA, test scores and all that but if you are accepted financial issues should not be a barrier, just because Joe and Jenny have the same GPA and test scores but Joe is poor does not mean Joe should have to be paying on student loans for 20 years while Jenny is partying it up because her gravy train parents financed her education. Also china does not have first rate education and quality of life so that is a poor comparison. I dont know how im giving CSM a bad reputation, my reputation as an engineer is great and I will hopefully soon have my PE (still waiting 8 more weeks for results) so I would say im not doing half bad upholding the reputation, political positions has nothing to do with engineering reputation.

As far as the comment from the seabee, I suppose you are correct I guess it was just not my cup of tea, I did not exactly know what to expect with basic and in some ways it was probably good for me but its one of thoes things you only get to surprise someone with once not twice, the army would really do well to either get rid of one or the other for officer candidates, I believe the AF only does one so that may have been better for me you go get hazed and cussed at ONCE then you are pinned and done, getting someone to go through basic training twice is a tough sell.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

gravy train

"I do not think he knows what that word means."

 

[Dark Knight]

...and we are going to overtime

opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:

 

[rppearso]

gravy train

"I do not think he knows what that word means."

If you dont agree you dont agree thats why we have elections and vote. Whether I know what the actual term means or not is irrelvant I think I framed the context pretty well, it would be nice to see some well framed counter points but if not whatever its not the end of the world.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

gravy train

"I do not think he knows what that word means."

If you dont agree you dont agree thats why we have elections and vote. Whether I know what the actual term means or not is irrelvant I think I framed the context pretty well, it would be nice to see some well framed counter points but if not whatever its not the end of the world.

I'm on my iPhone on my T'giving road trip, so I'm not going to type a long winded response to your rambling. I MIGHT cook one up later, but probably not since I don't really care if I convince you of anything.

 

[rppearso]

gravy train

"I do not think he knows what that word means."

If you dont agree you dont agree thats why we have elections and vote. Whether I know what the actual term means or not is irrelvant I think I framed the context pretty well, it would be nice to see some well framed counter points but if not whatever its not the end of the world.

I'm on my iPhone on my T'giving road trip, so I'm not going to type a long winded response to your rambling. I MIGHT cook one up later, but probably not since I don't really care if I convince you of anything.

Like I said its not the end of the world, and I dont know why you think that as seabee shifted my thinking on the military aspect, to an extent, as seen from my last response. No one likes to be yelled and and swore at and sleep deprived so I think the army is pushing it by having 2 basic training for officers, one basic training seabees argument works but not for 2 basic trainings which is what OCS is. I mean the least they can do is combine them into one 12 week period or something.

 

[picusld]

Like I said its not the end of the world, and I dont know why you think that as seabee shifted my thinking on the military aspect, to an extent, as seen from my last response. No one likes to be yelled and and swore at and sleep deprived so I think the army is pushing it by having 2 basic training for officers, one basic training seabees argument works but not for 2 basic trainings which is what OCS is. I mean the least they can do is combine them into one 12 week period or something.

This guy can't be for real.

 

[rppearso]

Like I said its not the end of the world, and I dont know why you think that as seabee shifted my thinking on the military aspect, to an extent, as seen from my last response. No one likes to be yelled and and swore at and sleep deprived so I think the army is pushing it by having 2 basic training for officers, one basic training seabees argument works but not for 2 basic trainings which is what OCS is. I mean the least they can do is combine them into one 12 week period or something.

This guy can't be for real.

Seriously can you post something useful, I love this site and when i was studying for my PE it was great, very analytical and now I am getting the same posts that I do on other forums, as engineers and educated people I think we can do better.

 

[IlPadrino]

I think that the same admissions standards should hold you should still have to have high GPA, test scores and all that but if you are accepted financial issues should not be a barrier, just because Joe and Jenny have the same GPA and test scores but Joe is poor does not mean Joe should have to be paying on student loans for 20 years while Jenny is partying it up because her gravy train parents financed her education.

I think he's trolling... I have never met anyone in real life who believes welfare in the U.S. should extend to college education.

 

[rppearso]

I think that the same admissions standards should hold you should still have to have high GPA, test scores and all that but if you are accepted financial issues should not be a barrier, just because Joe and Jenny have the same GPA and test scores but Joe is poor does not mean Joe should have to be paying on student loans for 20 years while Jenny is partying it up because her gravy train parents financed her education.

I think he's trolling... I have never met anyone in real life who believes welfare in the U.S. should extend to college education.

I am not trolling, you can search my profile and see that I just took the chemical PE and am very much so a lagitimate engineer with a lagitimate reason to be here, I started this thread out of frustration for the currant job market and lack of wage increases and it got morphed into what it is now. As I said in another post I am not a millionare or my parents are not millionares so it would have been REALLY nice to have a gov financed education and all this money I am dumping into student loans could be dumping it into my condo so I have a roof over my head when im laid off, you can call it what ever you want but I call it not wanting to die.

 

[MGX]

I think you'll survive a layoff. We have unemployment in this country.

 

[EM_PS]

it would be nice to see some well framed counter points but if not whatever its not the end of the world.

as you're a graduate of the School of Mimes, i don't see why you're bellyaching about respect & pay

 

[rppearso]

I think you'll survive a layoff. We have unemployment in this country.

The spooky thing is I was almost laid off in may and have been applying for jobs like crazy and have not even got an interview let alone a job offer and that was 7 months ago, thats a long time to be unemployed and between my mortgage and student loans unemployment benifits would not cut it I would have to have significantly more debt paid down to live on unemployment. And that is 7 months and running, I am still looking for more stable employment and have not found it, thats a real problem. I think 1 year is the max you can collect unemployment so then I would be destitute, if people were only unemployed for a few months that would be one thing but thats not the case.

 

[RM-270]

I'm not wAsting any more time arguing with reppearso or RM-270. They are equally incoherent and stubborn.

Fine with me. But I've never gotten the sheep mentality of this profession: Never question your alma mater; never question some of these organizations that profess to represent us, etc., etc.. I mean, reminds me of that Nine Inch Nails song [Head Like a Hole]: 'Bow down before the one you serve.....you're going to get what you deserve....'

And I've also not gotten how self-centered some people can be in this business. I remember I had a colleague ask me once (in light of a letter I had published denouncing raising the bar [for licensure]): "Why do you oppose it? You have a masters and you are registered.....it would cut back on the number of people you have to compete against [for jobs]." I mean, WTF? That's like someone [who has 2 kidneys] saying everyone who has just one kidney should be executed to control insurance costs. There is rational self-interest and then there is overwhelming greed. One is healthy the other isn't.

 

[Dexman1349]

You want a response?

Here's your answer:

Im not sure I understand...

Ok seriously...

There were 2 types of people who attended CSM:

1) The ones who went there because they were the Validictorians, the ones who had the educational "silver spoon." They thought that because they were smart, they would be able to earn whatever they wanted without putting forth much effort. Luckily most of them were weeded out within the first couple of years by the school itself, but I guess a few still got out...

2) The ones who thought they could be Engineers. These were the logical, hard-working, understanding people who enjoyed looking at problems because they enjoyed figuring out a solution, they enjoyed helping society.

You my friend seem to belong in category #1. and you have finally reached that point when you realize your assumption of earning whatever you want without much effort isn't going to work out.

So I want you to think over the following points. Please think long, hard and RATIONALLY (yes, like an engineer) before responding:

1) You're an engineer. YOU should be more rational than this.

2) You cannot compare yourself to auto mechanics, or 20+ year engineers. They have different jobs, they walked down a different path than you did, they earned where they are today.

3) The military is an entirely different beast. If you want respect there, you can't just flash a degree in their face and expect them to put you in command of anything. If you wanted the "easy" way into the military while being an engineer, you should have attempted ROTC. I graduated with several guys (and girls) who went this route. One eventually became a fighter pilot.

*Disclaimer* By no means do I assume ROTC was or would be easy. I saw how many hours and how much dedication those who enrolled in that program had invested in it, and I applaud them.

Respect is not about how much money you make, what degree you have or where you got it. You want repect? EARN IT. Put in your time. Work your way into this position.

Honestly, in my opinion, it sounds like you belong in the upscale suburbs. You've got a nasty case of "better than the Jones'." If someone has it, you want the better version of it. Not only that, but you want to be able to flaunt it in front of that person. Additionally, you think your degree (or school, or how much you spent on school) ENTITLES you to be able to do it. THIS is why people here are having an issue with your arguments.

 

[rppearso]

You want a response?
Here's your answer:

Im not sure I understand...

Ok seriously...

There were 2 types of people who attended CSM:

1) The ones who went there because they were the Validictorians, the ones who had the educational "silver spoon." They thought that because they were smart, they would be able to earn whatever they wanted without putting forth much effort. Luckily most of them were weeded out within the first couple of years by the school itself, but I guess a few still got out...

2) The ones who thought they could be Engineers. These were the logical, hard-working, understanding people who enjoyed looking at problems because they enjoyed figuring out a solution, they enjoyed helping society.

You my friend seem to belong in category #1. and you have finally reached that point when you realize your assumption of earning whatever you want without much effort isn't going to work out.

So I want you to think over the following points. Please think long, hard and RATIONALLY (yes, like an engineer) before responding:

1) You're an engineer. YOU should be more rational than this.

2) You cannot compare yourself to auto mechanics, or 20+ year engineers. They have different jobs, they walked down a different path than you did, they earned where they are today.

3) The military is an entirely different beast. If you want respect there, you can't just flash a degree in their face and expect them to put you in command of anything. If you wanted the "easy" way into the military while being an engineer, you should have attempted ROTC. I graduated with several guys (and girls) who went this route. One eventually became a fighter pilot.

*Disclaimer* By no means do I assume ROTC was or would be easy. I saw how many hours and how much dedication those who enrolled in that program had invested in it, and I applaud them.

Respect is not about how much money you make, what degree you have or where you got it. You want repect? EARN IT. Put in your time. Work your way into this position.

Honestly, in my opinion, it sounds like you belong in the upscale suburbs. You've got a nasty case of "better than the Jones'." If someone has it, you want the better version of it. Not only that, but you want to be able to flaunt it in front of that person. Additionally, you think your degree (or school, or how much you spent on school) ENTITLES you to be able to do it. THIS is why people here are having an issue with your arguments.

I see your point, I was actually in catagory 2 but think I may have came across wrong. I dont want better than the joneses I want a chance to be able to live....literally I need the income to get myself out of basic debt because my up bringing was poor and its very frustrating to have that feeling that the rug is going to be pulled out from under you (or rocks cave in on you right as you can start seeing the light) before you have a chance to make it out of the cave and make it into the middle class. The lack of interviews and job offers between now and the time I was almost laid off is a very spooky reminder that I was very close to freezing to death on the streets (one to 2 months unemployment is one thing but 7 months is completely different thing). I would think that an engineering degree would buy you a little extra edge even in a tough economy but it really doesnt and that is a disappointment.

Yea the military thing was not my bag, I was in AF ROTC for 2 years at mines and got out because the contracts were so vauge, I also wanted to be a fighter pilot but struggled with height weight and running, I could pass them but not at a fighter pilot competitive level, I went to a recruiter after graduation for OTS and took my AFOQT for the second and final time, studied my butt off and was offered a navigator spot but did not want the 12 year contract and navigators rarely get a chance at the pilot slot and are not gaurnteed a fighter slot so I choose the civilian route and used my engineering degree. I then tried joining the guard to fly rotary but that did not work out for me either. My last chance to fly is to get myself in a financial situation where I can buy a red bull air race plane (extra 300) but with having the rug pulled out from under me while im still making balloon payments on basic debts that goal is a long way off if I can even survive to see it. I have always been a christian but investing in the next life has been on my mind alot more, I am almost 30 and cant even get a grip on my student loan debts how the heck am I going to buy a quarter million dollar plane and hanger (and thats for a used one) plus all the ansilary costs that go with it, this life is fading. All raises have been cut and there are no new job offers for more money.

Maybe im being overly dramatic but unless things dramaticly turn around and there are 6 figure salary engineering slots that come open and I start getting thoes job offers there is not much to look forward to, you can only be so old and maintain a class 3 medical, after about the age of 40 you are lucky to keep that class 3 medical, I guess I could always go to a more remote area and fly without a medical.

 

[Guest]

Perhaps we can rephrase this thread to ... are engineers EXPANDABLE.

I would say yes. Especially at Thanksgiving when there is more than enough food to go around!

Like I said its not the end of the world, and I dont know why you think that as seabee shifted my thinking on the military aspect, to an extent, as seen from my last response. No one likes to be yelled and and swore at and sleep deprived so I think the army is pushing it by having 2 basic training for officers, one basic training seabees argument works but not for 2 basic trainings which is what OCS is. I mean the least they can do is combine them into one 12 week period or something.

Hmmm ....

As a former ENLISTED seabee, I know all about boot camp and working construction. I have no qualms with my time in the service - it made me appreciate the difference between working on a construction site as the craft and working as an engineer. I chose the latter through hard work and sacrifice. Sometimes it takes time to get where you would like .. I am 15 yrs down the road and job jumping a few times and finally have a license to where I can ply myself for a better wage.

Keep your eye on the prize ...

P.S. - No smack talking seabees!

JR

 

[rppearso]

Perhaps we can rephrase this thread to ... are engineers EXPANDABLE.
I would say yes. Especially at Thanksgiving when there is more than enough food to go around!

Like I said its not the end of the world, and I dont know why you think that as seabee shifted my thinking on the military aspect, to an extent, as seen from my last response. No one likes to be yelled and and swore at and sleep deprived so I think the army is pushing it by having 2 basic training for officers, one basic training seabees argument works but not for 2 basic trainings which is what OCS is. I mean the least they can do is combine them into one 12 week period or something.

Hmmm ....

As a former ENLISTED seabee, I know all about boot camp and working construction. I have no qualms with my time in the service - it made me appreciate the difference between working on a construction site as the craft and working as an engineer. I chose the latter through hard work and sacrifice. Sometimes it takes time to get where you would like .. I am 15 yrs down the road and job jumping a few times and finally have a license to where I can ply myself for a better wage.

Keep your eye on the prize ...

P.S. - No smack talking seabees!

JR

I am not trying to come off wrong and the guy with seabee in his avatar made good points, for me getting swore at and sleep deprived was not my bag, im all about working hard but hazing does not work for me thats just a personal choise. I agree you just have to keep plugging along but I figured with 5 years of good solid engineering design experience I would not still be in the same situation as I was when I first graduated when it comes to getting job offers, I feel like im having to go through the same gyrations as someone with 0 years of experence, with all the resumes I put in I would think I would be getting a least a few interviews and possibly a few job offers so I could pick and choose but instead I still feel like I just graduated or an indentured servant lol. Maybe I really need the PE on the resume and 7-10 years before I can start getting call backs and offers without having to put out 30 resumes for one call back (if im lucky, which I have not been thus far).

 

[Flyer_PE]

[....you can only be so old and maintain a class 3 medical, after about the age of 40 you are lucky to keep that class 3 medical, I guess I could always go to a more remote area and fly without a medical.

Maintaining a class 3 medical isn't a problem after age 40. The FAA examiner that I did both my private and instrument checkrides with was in his 80's at the time (class 2 medical required). Hell, there are a lot of pilots flying biz jets after being retired from the airlines due to the age-60 rule.

The type club for my airplane has a member who is also an AME. His basic claim is that if you can walk up the hill to his office, he can get you a medical.

 

[rppearso]

[....you can only be so old and maintain a class 3 medical, after about the age of 40 you are lucky to keep that class 3 medical, I guess I could always go to a more remote area and fly without a medical.

Maintaining a class 3 medical isn't a problem after age 40. The FAA examiner that I did both my private and instrument checkrides with was in his 80's at the time (class 2 medical required). Hell, there are a lot of pilots flying biz jets after being retired from the airlines due to the age-60 rule.

The type club for my airplane has a member who is also an AME. His basic claim is that if you can walk up the hill to his office, he can get you a medical.

I may be asking you for that doctors recommendation, I was reading that if you have had any one of a long list of medical conditions EVER you will most likely be denied a medical (heart attack, etc). Maybe thoes were just scare tactics but im not sure what anyone would have to gain by creating a scare tactic for that. I always thought that if I thought I were having a heart attack I would not go in because getting a class 3 medical again would be virtually impossible without all sorts of gyration and hoop jumping, but if its not recorded who would know.