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HerrKaLeun

foreign undergraduate degree and US master

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I do have a German undergraduate degree (Diplomingenieur) and will graduate from the UW-Madison as Master of Engineering this week. I also have 4+ years of experience in the US. I did pass the FE in 2007 in the first try.

My problem is that the licensing board first had an evaluation firm (ECEI) they accepted. After I sent them my documents they canceled their work with WI licensing board and sent me my papers back and partially reimbursed my fee. then the board didn't have anyone doing evaluations of foreign degrees for a while. Then state licensing board told me to go to a company AACROA and they gave me an evaluation that my degree is " equal or better then a US bachelor". But then the licensing board didn't accept AACROA evaluations (apparently they never talked to them about what requirements they have). AACROA canceled their contract with WI licensing board too. Now WI has a new firm they (allegedly) accept evaluations from. But they require my German university to send in all documents in English (I'm not allowed to touch them). Problem is, my German university is small and they don't have any program documents in English and only release documents in the official language (German). Does anyone else have experience with that? Graduate school would accept my German documents. Anyway, I likely won't get a useful evaluation. Actually, passing the FE exam and attending graduate school was easier then dealing with these impossible-to-achieve requirements to get an evaluation.

Now my question:

- will they accept my US Masters degree? The official language is " 4 year degree" and all ABET accredited degrees are BS degrees. (the UW MAdison Mechanical engineering BS program is listed). In my world, a masters degree always trumps a BS. but we deal with state regulators here.

- will they count my work experience up to now even when that was done before graduating from grad school? (remember, in their eyes my German degree is nothing)

I plan to take the PE exam this fall. I searched for similar problems, but didn't find any.

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I imagine your US master's degree will be accepted from UW - Madison. Different states have different requirements for PE exam. Are you trying to take it in Wisconsin?

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I imagine your US master's degree will be accepted from UW - Madison. Different states have different requirements for PE exam. Are you trying to take it in Wisconsin?

Yes I'm trying to take it in WI. Department of Licensing and Registration (DLR) told me today my Masters degree doesn't count for more than one year of education since they only have the UW bachelor degrees listed (and apparently the ME is worth less than a BS :-). So my masters degree would save me one year of experience of the 8 that I need. BUT I attended grad school while working full time and they don't let me double-count. So for licensing purposes the ME degree is worthless.

since they also don't have a place of evaluation that doesn't require my German university to create official documents in English, I'm pretty much stuck with waiting to get 8 years of experience (4 more to go). Unless they change their rules.

Ironically they let people become PE that have longer experience WITHOUT writing a test at all. In my opinion they should close that loop hole and let people that make honest effort getting credentials take the test. At this point I'd write 2 PE tests and pay and study for 2 tests if I could jsut write them.

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I imagine your US master's degree will be accepted from UW - Madison. Different states have different requirements for PE exam. Are you trying to take it in Wisconsin?

Yes I'm trying to take it in WI. Department of Licensing and Registration (DLR) told me today my Masters degree doesn't count for more than one year of education since they only have the UW bachelor degrees listed (and apparently the ME is worth less than a BS :-). So my masters degree would save me one year of experience of the 8 that I need. BUT I attended grad school while working full time and they don't let me double-count. So for licensing purposes the ME degree is worthless.

since they also don't have a place of evaluation that doesn't require my German university to create official documents in English, I'm pretty much stuck with waiting to get 8 years of experience (4 more to go). Unless they change their rules.

Ironically they let people become PE that have longer experience WITHOUT writing a test at all. In my opinion they should close that loop hole and let people that make honest effort getting credentials take the test. At this point I'd write 2 PE tests and pay and study for 2 tests if I could jsut write them.

Couple of thoughts/items for you:

1 - Just a correction/update for everyone - WI actually just passed an amendment to their engineering laws in this most recent legislative session that will eliminate the option of becoming a PE without following the procedures that are relatively close to the "NCEES Model Law" option (Engineering Degree -> FE -> Experience -> PE), no more PE just based on experience.

2 - RE: your German degree - couple of thoughts...

- talk with the German dept at UW-Madison, they are frequently sending students back and forth between here and Germany and likely face this issue all the time with how to get the University to accept transcripts from German universities - what do they do? They may have some guidance for you to take advantage of (and they deal with state agencies too!)

- it's true that YOU cannot touch the transcripts, but what about an official translation company? Perhaps they can translate them and put a "stamp/note" of some sort (similar to a notary public, or a PE stamp) certifying that they have translated this properly...there are likely agencies or groups that can perform this task for you. Perhaps you can provide the WI DRL a copy of both your original transcript AND a "certified" translation?

Good luck - I didn't have too many challenges with the WI DRL, though my case was pretty "standard" as well. Write back if any of these work out or if you get some other ideas...maybe they'll help somebody else in the future!

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unfortunately, one of the most notable opinions on foreign degree evals around here recently got banned (again)

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In Minnesota if you have a graduate degree (MSEE, PhDEE) from the United States, they honor that degree and you don't need to go through the evaluation of your BSEE.

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I hate to quibble, but you are incorrect when you say "All ABET accredited degrees are BS degrees." It's true that MOST ABET accredited degrees are BS degrees, simply because most schools offer both a BS and MS degree, but have more BS students (plus, if your BS is already accredited there is no point in your MS also having to be accredited.).

However, there are some schools that only offer MS degrees, which are ABET acceredited. The MS program I went through for engineering management was accredited.

Unfortuantely, this helps you in no way shape or form, I'm just being an ass by pointing out your mistake. My wife hates it when I do that but I can't help it.

So go with the other's folks advice and see if you can take it in a neighboring state that will accept your credentials?

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I do have a German undergraduate degree (Diplomingenieur) and will graduate from the UW-Madison as Master of Engineering this week. I also have 4+ years of experience in the US. I did pass the FE in 2007 in the first try.

My problem is that the licensing board first had an evaluation firm (ECEI) they accepted. After I sent them my documents they canceled their work with WI licensing board and sent me my papers back and partially reimbursed my fee. then the board didn't have anyone doing evaluations of foreign degrees for a while. Then state licensing board told me to go to a company AACROA and they gave me an evaluation that my degree is " equal or better then a US bachelor". But then the licensing board didn't accept AACROA evaluations (apparently they never talked to them about what requirements they have). AACROA canceled their contract with WI licensing board too. Now WI has a new firm they (allegedly) accept evaluations from. But they require my German university to send in all documents in English (I'm not allowed to touch them). Problem is, my German university is small and they don't have any program documents in English and only release documents in the official language (German). Does anyone else have experience with that? Graduate school would accept my German documents. Anyway, I likely won't get a useful evaluation. Actually, passing the FE exam and attending graduate school was easier then dealing with these impossible-to-achieve requirements to get an evaluation.

Now my question:

- will they accept my US Masters degree? The official language is " 4 year degree" and all ABET accredited degrees are BS degrees. (the UW MAdison Mechanical engineering BS program is listed). In my world, a masters degree always trumps a BS. but we deal with state regulators here.

- will they count my work experience up to now even when that was done before graduating from grad school? (remember, in their eyes my German degree is nothing)

I plan to take the PE exam this fall. I searched for similar problems, but didn't find any.

Hi,

I had similar situation. My undergrad was outside US and i did my masters in US. When i sent my application to TX board of engineers i just took a letter from the Graduate School that my degree have been evaluated as per the US standard by the school and i got the admission on basis of that. I just provided this letter to TX board and they did not ask for anything else besides my graduate transcript. You can just approach anyone in your graduate school office and they should be able to provide you this letter. I am not sure whether WI board will accept it but i think its worth a try. It worked for me.

Good Luck

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Couple of thoughts/items for you:

1 - Just a correction/update for everyone - WI actually just passed an amendment to their engineering laws in this most recent legislative session that will eliminate the option of becoming a PE without following the procedures that are relatively close to the "NCEES Model Law" option (Engineering Degree -> FE -> Experience -> PE), no more PE just based on experience.

2 - RE: your German degree - couple of thoughts...

- talk with the German dept at UW-Madison, they are frequently sending students back and forth between here and Germany and likely face this issue all the time with how to get the University to accept transcripts from German universities - what do they do? They may have some guidance for you to take advantage of (and they deal with state agencies too!)

- it's true that YOU cannot touch the transcripts, but what about an official translation company? Perhaps they can translate them and put a "stamp/note" of some sort (similar to a notary public, or a PE stamp) certifying that they have translated this properly...there are likely agencies or groups that can perform this task for you. Perhaps you can provide the WI DRL a copy of both your original transcript AND a "certified" translation?

Good luck - I didn't have too many challenges with the WI DRL, though my case was pretty "standard" as well. Write back if any of these work out or if you get some other ideas...maybe they'll help somebody else in the future!

thanks to all of you.

chemorme:

- do you have a link or more information to the new law? I didn't see that DLR had changed their information. Did they by any chance include master's degrees or any other changes to foreign degrees? I wouldn't mind if they got rid of the option to just become a PE without the test (yes, WI allows that!!) Edit: just found it this really sucks. since they either want a 2-year of 4-year degree, but Master's only counts as one year. DLR board only has meeting minutes from last year where they talk about it. but no information on when they implement that. but they got rid of the loophole to get licensed without the test. Now I'm really screwed, how am I to fulfill that short of getting another Master's degree or to get a bachelor's degree?

- translating, if they accepted just a translation (they actually talk about getting original university documents in English). If just translating by an official translator would work, I the German university had to pay them, and they needed to set up ways for me to pay the university. then there also is no guarantee the the " transcripts" really would be acknowledged. there isn't a real German counter thing to transcripts like from a US school. thsi option also would mean me up-fronting large amounts of money for the thing (including tranlation etc.) without knowing if DLR will accept it (since I already got one from a company required by DLR, and then DLR didn't accept it)

- using my gradschool admission might be possible, but the last time I talked to DLR they were strict about that it has to say " NCEES approved..." and gradschool is no licensed to say such thing. but i cna contact them. I'm awaiting my diploma and they still have all my original German documents.

Mechguy: i just assumed since all courses I saw that were ABET were BS. I kind of wonder why they have the BS program from my school listed, but not Master's . but i don't think I can change that. Edit: jsut looked up all WI schools. All only have BS degrees listed as ABET

- yes I heard some states accept MS and ME degrees. however, DLR said that counts as one year education (with other words, in their world one bachelor degree is worth 4 Master degrees)

- I sent in my application for E.I.T again since now i have 4 years experience int eh US, got all my 3 PE references and wait for the result. I'm being reclassified at work and the higher position technically requires E.I.T. license (and nit just passing the test). hope HR gets around and acknowledges i have an ME degree to make up for it.

Any other ideas for Wisconsin? and I don't think i can go to another state. I guess one has to reside there.

Thanks

Edited by HerrKaLeun

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Just saw the governor signed act 350 into law. I'll see how quickly DLR sets rules accordingly.

Now they want either a 2-year technical college degree (+6 years experience) or a 4-year bachelor degree + 4 years experience. I don't generally oppose this, but am angry that they ignore graduate degrees. Now they not only say a Master's degree is worth less than a bachelor's degree. now it even is worth less than a 2-year technical college degree.

I'll await what the new rules will be, but I don't have much hope.

Does anyone have experience with foreign degrees accredited by NCEES? I really don't think any of my German institutions will send anything in English. I tried that 3 years ago at my first attempt with no luck. now most people I knew there likely are retired and my program from back then had changed dramatically (and is not even in English now)

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Just saw the governor signed act 350 into law. I'll see how quickly DLR sets rules accordingly.

Now they want either a 2-year technical college degree (+6 years experience) or a 4-year bachelor degree + 4 years experience. I don't generally oppose this, but am angry that they ignore graduate degrees. Now they not only say a Master's degree is worth less than a bachelor's degree. now it even is worth less than a 2-year technical college degree.

I'll await what the new rules will be, but I don't have much hope.

Does anyone have experience with foreign degrees accredited by NCEES? I really don't think any of my German institutions will send anything in English. I tried that 3 years ago at my first attempt with no luck. now most people I knew there likely are retired and my program from back then had changed dramatically (and is not even in English now)

I don't think they are really saying that a Master's degree is worth less then a 2 year degree... it's just a unique situation where someone would obtain a Masters without having gotten any sort of lower degree first. I have been going circles for two years regarding boards and degree/experience qualifications with the added fact that we move a lot, but then again, I don't have my masters... so although it's frustrating.

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I had BS and MS from China and MS from US, when I applied for the PE exam in NY, they sent the verification letter to the University where I got my BS. It took about 3 months that the NY Dept. of Education get the verification letter back from China.

I do think every normal college/University has the program of transcript translation becuase almost any University need the undergrauate transcipt for the application of MS, or PHD admission.

Check your university, tell the board the mail address of the office probabally will make the verification fast.

Do not fight with the verifcation procedure, find a way to make the verification done.

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I had BS and MS from China and MS from US, when I applied for the PE exam in NY, they sent the verification letter to the University where I got my BS. It took about 3 months that the NY Dept. of Education get the verification letter back from China.

I do think every normal college/University has the program of transcript translation becuase almost any University need the undergrauate transcipt for the application of MS, or PHD admission.

Check your university, tell the board the mail address of the office probabally will make the verification fast.

Do not fight with the verifcation procedure, find a way to make the verification done.

In your case it sounds like the department accepted the foreign degree. WI licensing board itself doesn't evaluate anything. they require me to use a certain evaluation service (today that is NCEES, it used to be other companies before).

The problem isn't necessarily the transcripts, it is obtaining them in English. Unlike the US school system, the German system is much more strict and the title "Diplomingenieur" (little bit in between bachelor and master imho) is protected by law. not like in the US where " university of Phoenix" can legally create random degrees and call them " bachelor" . With that, all German universities have to follow strict rules to earn that degree. AFAIK all engineering degrees are from state universities only. There also is no "PE" license in Germany. "Diplomingenieur" serves as that trademark, if you can compare it at all. That also means that no one ever wants to see a transcript since the title "Diplomingenieur" is not to be questioned. If you have that title, you are good to go. So if you have that title, you technically never need to proof what you exactly did in each class. That's why universities typically are not prepared to produce a transcript at the push of a button. Larger universities that are more likely to deal internationally, might do that. but all European schools will accept a German degree without questioning. My little (4000 student) university sure has not such process. And i tried that 3 years ago when I did the AACROA evaluation. But AACROA accepted the documents and translations coming from me (and likely verified translations themselves). they don''t even have that in english (or ready trasncripts at all) for current programs and sure don't go back in time to a 2003 graduate to re-create that in English.

I guess there is a difference in mindset here making an evaluation necessary in the US. In the US the term " engineer" is loosely used and not protected. I can call myself "sales engineer" and am legally OK. In Germany calling one " Diplomingenieur" without ever completing an official program would be considered fraud and can get you in jail.

Maybe I'll try again and give them my translations, so they can officially stamp and send it to NCEES. Does anyone know if NCEES has requirements regarding the translation (i.e. certified translator etc.?). Before I pay them money I rather know I have a shot. It seems NCEES doesn't give you much information before you give them money.

Edited by HerrKaLeun

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I am an engineer, and no longer have the tip of my tounge.

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I am an engineer, and no longer have the tip of my tounge.

no need to bite tongue...

Well, we get proposals from consultants and most of the "engineers" have never seen a college from inside.

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For example, you had BS in Germany and you want to apply for the MS, or PHD study from a university in US, normally the university will ask you ask your college send the official transcript (NOT from youself). What will you do? If your college does not have the program, it will be tough.

I do not know the requirement from WI, from NY, the Dept. of Education sent a form to my university in China, let them fill and sign the form ,send them back with the transcript DIRECTLY.

You maybe can translate the transcipt in englishby youself and get it stamped from youe university if your university does not international education program. or maybe as you said, get it in German and pay someone translated in English and notarized in US.

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+1 on going to a neighboring state.

I had issues getting all the documentation in correctly to my state so I went to Washington, they processed my paperwork with no issues and I took the test there (and it was cheaper).

Then once you have passed the test you have all the time you need to get things worked out with WI.

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+1 on going to a neighboring state.

I had issues getting all the documentation in correctly to my state so I went to Washington, they processed my paperwork with no issues and I took the test there (and it was cheaper).

Then once you have passed the test you have all the time you need to get things worked out with WI.

I'm not sure if going to a different state is possible without " pretending" to live there. And don't you need references from PE's from that state you apply for? I only work with PE's in WI.

Sommerset: Germany (at that time) didn't have BS and MS. " diplomingenieur" was the only engineering degree (besides becoming PhD). thsi makes comparing even harder. Now most schools have BS and MS, but also still have Dipl.-Ing. degrees.

The problem translating is, it needs to come from the university. so having someone in the US translating wouldn't work. but I'll try to send my university my own translations. does anyone know if that can be translated by anyone as long as it is stamped by the unviersity, or will NCEES require some officially certified translator? (this of course would make it harder and expensive)

WI licensing board requires evaluations sent from NCEES. NCEES requires my German university to send it all to them directly, and in English. WI licensing board themselves don't deal with any schools etc.

Regarding admission to graduate school and why they didn't require it sent by my German university:

Besides original German documents and my translations, I also gave them the official evaluation by AACROA (that the licensing board didn't accept). I also had attended UW Madison some years before on scholarship and took all graduate courses and had a GPA of over 3.5 back then. Aslo had GRE with 1200 scores etc. They do have German speaking staff that is very knowledgeable in foreign education systems. They asked for more documents (Abitur) etc. that only knowledgeable people would even know. Many of the graduate students are foreign, and all get paid a salary as research assistants (not me, I worked full time since I already had a good engineering job before grad school) . I'd think their evaluation systems is valid. they may or may not have checked more things int he background, like contacted my German school to verify, I don't know. It is one of the best engineering schools (of course I have to say that :-)

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You better explain this situation to WI exam board and ask them if it is okay you translate and let your university stamped it. Besides, you better check whether any form from WI need signed by your university.

It is tough, you can do it, it took me almost 1 year to get the approval from NY state. Do not give up.

P.E. is a BIG advantage for job hunting.

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You better explain this situation to WI exam board and ask them if it is okay you translate and let your university stamped it. Besides, you better check whether any form from WI need signed by your university.

It is tough, you can do it, it took me almost 1 year to get the approval from NY state. Do not give up.

P.E. is a BIG advantage for job hunting.

The licensing board doesn't care how I get the documents. they basically trust NCEES decision on the evaluation.

NCEES sets the rules and reviews the documents (WI licensing board doesn't even get to see the documents, they only get the evaluation document from NCEES).

The thing is, NCEES doesn't really have a contact information to talk to before you pay the $ 400. Then they will tell you what you exactly need. My question now to anyone having experience with NCEES: doe they have specific translation requirements?

Before I pay the $ 400 again, I'd like to have certainty it will work.

Edited by HerrKaLeun

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Well, we get proposals from consultants and most of the "engineers" have never seen a college from inside.

Is that always a bad thing?

I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying... I have researched it, and if I went to get an MS, there would still be no gaurentee that I could sit for any of the exams, since my BS is in a different area of study. But the way it is set up in some states, allows people who have changed professions, to become an "engineer" per say based on their knowledge and experience. I know plenty of competent engineers who have gotten a technical two year degree and worked the required years and gone on and become PE's, and plenty of others that have masters with PE's that can not produce a set of plans that I'm willing to accept for us to use. I do recommend looking into the neighboring states... it may be slightly a pain, but in the end, you may be able to achieve your goal in a more timely manner.

Also, since you are working in the engineering field, you could ask around your office regarding contact information. This was how I was able to get many of my questions answered.

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I'm not sure if going to a different state is possible without " pretending" to live there. And don't you need references from PE's from that state you apply for? I only work with PE's in WI.

Here is the list of states that require residency to take the exam NCEES Surveys. There are only a few states that you have to live in to take the exam. You may have to travel to that state to take the exam since the proctoring rules are changing.

My application was approved in PA, and I had 5 PE's as references, and they were all from different states.

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Well, we get proposals from consultants and most of the "engineers" have never seen a college from inside.

Is that always a bad thing?

I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying... I have researched it, and if I went to get an MS, there would still be no gaurentee that I could sit for any of the exams, since my BS is in a different area of study. But the way it is set up in some states, allows people who have changed professions, to become an "engineer" per say based on their knowledge and experience. I know plenty of competent engineers who have gotten a technical two year degree and worked the required years and gone on and become PE's, and plenty of others that have masters with PE's that can not produce a set of plans that I'm willing to accept for us to use. I do recommend looking into the neighboring states... it may be slightly a pain, but in the end, you may be able to achieve your goal in a more timely manner.

Also, since you are working in the engineering field, you could ask around your office regarding contact information. This was how I was able to get many of my questions answered.

I agree with the method of becoming a P.E. by having more years experience. Until this month, WI allowed writing the test with 8 years experience and no degree (that was my backup plan in case they don't acknowledge my German nor my US master's). but the new law doesn't allow that anymore (2-year technical college + 6 years experience or 4-year BS + 4 years experience required now).

(WI also allowed becoming a PE with BS degree + 8 years experience but no test... fortunately they got rid of that one)

I meant, many of the designers are neither P.E. nor completed college education. they always have one senior engineer for the RFP and meetings to make it look like they had qualification. but the design is done by non-engineers. At least for many consultants. there are some good ones, but those are the majority. Actually much of my work is fixing their mistakes at our expense.

At first i didn't realize that when i talked to them in design meetings adn they didn't understand some concepts. Since I'm from another country many things are different tome and are uncommon here and vice versa. but later on in my job when those designs failed exactly because they did things to the contrary of what i said, I had a closer look at their resumes from their RFPs. then I realized that they use little trick words like "electrical designer"instead of engineer. "attended UW Madison" instead of got a degree. Over time i also got to know more consultants (good and bad ones) and realized more that much of the design is done my some students. Maybe we always get the B-team of staff (I work for a local government) and in the beginning I was naive to think when we hire an engineering consultant all work would be done by engineers. At least the design. i realize some drafting etc. is done by cheaper people.

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