PMP Certification

[IlPadrino]

My job is sending me to the first course for this next month, 14-16 July. My boss is at the "Associates" level, and she gave me a brochure to read through for an understanding of hor it all works. From what I gather, you take 3 courses and pass the exam for each one and that gives you the "Associate" status. Then you take four more classes and pass the exams for each of those and that qualifies you for "Masters" status. Then you take a 3 hour cumulative exam and if you pass that, you can use the PMP designation. Anyway, I'm starting down that path in a couple weeks, so we'll see how it goes.

I didn't think PMP required anything but the requisite education, experience, and exam:

Program Management Professional (PgMP)SMPMI's Program Management Professional (PgMP) credentialing service offers PMI's first credential designed to demonstrate project and program management skills. To be eligible for the PgMP credential, you must meet specific guidelines that objectively measure experience, education and professional knowledge, and undergo a rigorous application process as well as three assessments. You also must agree to adhere to the PMI Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct. The CAPM or PMP credential are not prerequisites for the PgMP credential.

*

Eligibility

o • With a Bachelor’s Degree (or a global equivalent): Over the last 15 consecutive years, applicants must have at least four years of project management experience and four years of program management experience.

o • Without a Bachelor’s Degree (or a global equivalent): Over the last 15 consecutive years, applicants must have at least four years of project management experience and seven years of program management experience.

Certified Associate in Project Management (CAPM®) Credential is even easier...

Or are you talking about something else?

 

[IlPadrino]

Well, I am not sure why we're taking the course, but the application for this thing looks like a bear.
Okay, the PgMP certification is for Program Managers (definately diffrerent than the Project Managers certificate). The PMP cert more rigorous as I understand it.

Regardless, my boss is sending me to three days of training that will lead to more letters behind my name (eventually) for free, so whatever, I'm on board. If they weren't paying, I wouldn't give a shit. However, I do think that a well written application with documented work experience managing projects is sufficient for being allowed to sit for the four hour exam. I am not sure why all of us at my work are going through these courses?!?

The Program Management Professional (PgMP)SM Credential looked interesting to me, but the fee is CRAZY is you're paying for it yourself (I think is was something like $1500).

 

[GT ME]

As a person with 1st tier Engineering & MBA degrees, the PMP is a joke.

First of all, the PMP doesn't have educational requirements, so any donkey qualifies to get one. Need I say more?

I find it ironic that government identities hold respect for the PMP designation -- fiqures -- it gives donkeys an out to get into the GS14 & 15 level with no justification.

In the private sector, the MBA is superior -- in not only shows intelligence but also experience.

 

[IlPadrino]

As a person with 1st tier Engineering & MBA degrees, the PMP is a joke.
First of all, the PMP doesn't have educational requirements, so any donkey qualifies to get one. Need I say more?

I find it ironic that government identities hold respect for the PMP designation -- fiqures -- it gives donkeys an out to get into the GS14 & 15 level with no justification.

In the private sector, the MBA is superior -- in not only shows intelligence but also experience.

GT,

At first I thought you were trying to patronize YKW... but then I reread it and think you're sincere.

I don't know much about the PMI or their certifications beyond what I've read on the internet. Nor do I know which (if any!) government entities give much credibility in the certification - I'd say the DoD gives none.

BUT... I also don't think it's fair to compare an education (MBA) to actual, real-life project or program management. And I'd point out the PMP *does* have an education requirement in the sense that a degree removes some of the experience. Is that any different than the PE where some States allow non-accredited or degreed persons through?

MBAs are great and all, but they don't always translate to real-world use. I've met many bean counters that couldn't manage a Cub Scout Den.

 

[GT ME]

I was probably a little harsh -- my darn background makes me like that.

Unlike the PMP, you must have an accredited engineering degree in your chosen PE profession (not long ago, you didn't have to have an engineering degree to obtain a PE).

As a business owner since 1987, I can tell you an MBA doesn't translate to real-world experience (I graduated with an MBA in 2005, and I graduated with a BSME in 2000). But neither does a PMP.

I had a spirited conversation with a retired military person with a GS 15 and that person educated me on the levels and payment of government employees -- I deduced that you could have a GS 15 without a high school education with a PMP (the person said the top salary was 141k for a GS 15).

My point is the PMP deminshes my MBA education(not in the private sector) in government -- that ain't right.

GT,
At first I thought you were trying to patronize YKW... but then I reread it and think you're sincere.

I don't know much about the PMI or their certifications beyond what I've read on the internet. Nor do I know which (if any!) government entities give much credibility in the certification - I'd say the DoD gives none.

BUT... I also don't think it's fair to compare an education (MBA) to actual, real-life project or program management. And I'd point out the PMP *does* have an education requirement in the sense that a degree removes some of the experience. Is that any different than the PE where some States allow non-accredited or degreed persons through?

MBAs are great and all, but they don't always translate to real-world use. I've met many bean counters that couldn't manage a Cub Scout Den.

 

[IlPadrino]

Unlike the PMP, you must have an accredited engineering degree in your chosen PE profession (not long ago, you didn't have to have an engineering degree to obtain a PE).

I don't think that's true. I believe some state boards allow you to obtain licensure without a degree (much less accredited) so long as you have sufficient experience.

 

[IlPadrino]

I had a spirited conversation with a retired military person with a GS 15 and that person educated me on the levels and payment of government employees -- I deduced that you could have a GS 15 without a high school education with a PMP (the person said the top salary was 141k for a GS 15).

I know many GS-15s that don't have a college degree. But it certainly took them lots of time! As I wrote before, I don't know of *any* DoD position that gives credibility to the PMP - much less let you substitute education requirements with the PMP certification. If there's a government organization that does, I agree with you wholeheartedly!

 

[SSmith]

I know many GS-15s that don't have a college degree. But it certainly took them lots of time!

In all fairness though, a GS15 in DC is like a GS7 everywhere else. So I dont find this hard to believe at all. Everywhere else, this would be nearly impossible. A GS15 is on par with an O6. All O6s have college degrees. (Maybe its somehow possible for Green to Gold soldiers to become officers without a degree?) It would then follow the same requirement on GS15s.

 

[IlPadrino]

In all fairness though, a GS15 in DC is like a GS7 everywhere else. So I dont find this hard to believe at all. Everywhere else, this would be nearly impossible. A GS15 is on par with an O6. All O6s have college degrees. (Maybe its somehow possible for Green to Gold soldiers to become officers without a degree?) It would then follow the same requirement on GS15s.

While there are certainly a lot of GS-15s in DC, their position descriptions get classified like every other one, right?

You can't really compare GSs to military paygrades... while there's a Geneva Convention equivalency and protocol/housing/etc guidelines, they don't translate to responsibility. How many GS15s work directly for Flag/General Officers? Very few! And the equivalencies really break down at lower paygrades. I know of Ensigns that had GS-13s working for them.

Bottom line for me: guidelines are great, but I see nothing wrong with exceptions made on overall merit (which usually means considerable exceptional experience).

 

[IlPadrino]

So, I went to work and read the little brochure for this course I'm taking a couple weeks from now. Okay, so get this, the particular state agency that I work for basically got sold a line of crap on this. This is a "partnership" between ESI, PMI, and my agency. Each one of these classes costs a few hundred bucks and if you complete all 7 of them, then basically you get to sit for the PMP exam (which I could do now without any of the classes). Basically, my state agency and PMI and ESI have some sort of contract where they pay for so many seats in these classes. So, bottom line is my agency got ripped off, in my personal opinion. But who knows, I could be very wrong. I'll tell you how the classes went.

Maybe you can work out a deal where you get the time off from work instead of going to the classes... give you some time to study for the exam!

I imagine there's a lot of this in government - where the person making the "deals" has no clue what he's really buying, but it sounds good.

 

[GT ME]

Wow -- I hope that ain't true -- I thought that went out years ago -- I quess some states still live both in the dark ages and in ignorance.

I don't think that's true. I believe some state boards allow you to obtain licensure without a degree (much less accredited) so long as you have sufficient experience.

 

[GT ME]

Wish I would've asked that gentleman which department he worked for that gives more credibility to the PMP over MBA.

hooray for the DOD

I know many GS-15s that don't have a college degree. But it certainly took them lots of time! As I wrote before, I don't know of *any* DoD position that gives credibility to the PMP - much less let you substitute education requirements with the PMP certification. If there's a government organization that does, I agree with you wholeheartedly!

 

[Bman]

I am actually getting my MS degree in Project Management from BU right now, basically a version of an MBA with 4 core classes centered around project management. We reviewed the PMBOK pretty extensively as well as talked about PMP certification, so here's my two cents. PMP seems to be big with IT people, but doesn't seem to be too big outside of that particular field. I did not fully agree with their approach to project management (a project is a unique, one time endeavor so here's a textbook approach to deal with it- seems kinda contradictory to me) and it didn't quite seem like a lot of the professors did either, even though they were PMP certified; this also rings true with people I know that have the designation. Most of the professors would teach you the book way, the PMP way, and their way (made things a bit confusing at times...). I know in my field which is consulting engineering (building construction), no one would pay much attention to the PMP accreditation even if they knew what it was. There are also CU credits required, so there is some additional work to keep up the accreditation. Personally, I will be taking the PE next year and don't want to get bogged down with too many CU's.... I have also heard rumors that LEED may require CU's eventually and I plan on taking the LEED test before it goes to V3.

 

[KnowledgeAcquirer]

I'll add my 2-sense here based upon my DoD, Aerospace, and management consultant experience.

PMP has 2 meanings: Program Management Professional vice Project Management Professional.

As those familiar with DoD and the Federal govt have stated, PMP was in vogue in the past and has now made a comeback. For this sector, this is Program Management (as anything with DoD and the Feds, this is very large-scale). The Lockheeds, TRWs (now part of Northrop Grumman), Hughes (now part of Boeing), Boeing, etc., are referring to Program Management when discussing PMP. For example, an IMINT (imaging intelligence) or SIGINT (signals intelligence) satellite system normally consists of a constellation of several satellites and includes space- and ground- (sometimes airborne) assets. Almost always, there will be a "family" of programs that constitute several different versions that evolve over time and incorporate design changes to a baseline design. The Program Management Professional oversees all of these programs within a family. Unlike Project Management, Program Management also entails the Operational and Maintenance part of a birth-death life cycle. Yes, the Program Manager has to deal with operational issues (like when the telemetry has failed). She/He has to get an engineering team to resolve the matter and then incorporate the changes into other satellites in the same family that have not yet been launched and ensure the fixes/upgrades/improvements gets incorporated in the next family of the series.

On the IT side, and for that matter S/W Engineering in DoD and the Feds, PMP when mentioned, refers to Project Management Professional. Most commercial/financial sector/banking sector, IT and management consultancies are actually addressing Project Management not Program Management. The best engineering analogy is on the Civil Engineering side. Although a number of bridges may be designed and built by a a single engineering firm, there usually is a separate engineering team and management for each bridge project. A Project Manager does not have to deal with operational and maintenance issues since by PMI definition, a project is a one-time task. Contrast this with the satellite system example above.

Those of you with MBAs are correct; the PMP certification counts more than an MBA in many industries. This is ludicrous IMHO since the better MBA programs usually require at least one course or two in Project Management as part of the MBA curriculum. As for the experience requirement, almost all MBA programs of repute now require at least 2-3 years of working experience before accepting MBA applicants. It is very difficult to be a contributing member on a Case Study if you have no working background.

Besides my preparation for the PE in Electrical discipline, I am utilizing my ACM membership to take their online courses that prepares a person for the PMP certification exam. Yes, it is a CB (computer-based) exam. The nice part is that the ACM online courses are offered by SkillSoft (the same folks that are certified by PMI and prepares their courses). The online course mimics the CB exam --- they have actual simulations (get to click on a telephone and email icon in their simulations) that mimic an actual office environment. What is lacking is the actual day-to-day nuances (body language, political and cultural organizational stuff that occurs in a real-world environment).

Yes, like some of the other board members, I don't agree with their definitions, much less responses 100%, but HEY! that's the responses that help one pass and get another alphabet soup designation.

Unlike a PE license or Law license or Medical license or Dental license (u get the picture), one does not really need a college degree to "sit" for the PMP exam. What is supposedly required is work experience (a set number of hours doing actual project management). Now it is easy to see the Catch-22 here.

My "take" on this is if you are a good test-taker and memory-recall person, the PMP is a cinch. (FYI: I am not a good test taker though I am strong on memory recall. Since I am not a good test-taker I am so ecstatic that I passed the FE Exam on the 1st try after being out of school for 26 years.)

Unlike the PE license, one doesn't have to work a minimum number of years under a licensed PE or in this case, a minimum number of years UNDER A PERSON WHO HAS a PMP certification.

Thus, while a PE license discriminates against those who have worked in industry-exempt areas throughout their career, the PMP certification does not (all it requires is that one has done project management regardless of size or difficulty).

 

[IlPadrino]

I'll add my 2-sense here based upon my DoD, Aerospace, and management consultant experience.
PMP has 2 meanings: Program Management Professional vice Project Management Professional.

Interesting post... thanks for sharing. Two questions: 1) Do you have a link for the "Program Management Professional" you mentioned? 2) Can you edit your post to specify which PMP you talk about when you use it?

 

[benbo]

Interesting post... thanks for sharing. Two questions: 1) Do you have a link for the "Program Management Professional" you mentioned? 2) Can you edit your post to specify which PMP you talk about when you use it?

I thought they referred to one as a PgMP and the other as a PMP. Not that I know anything about it - I looked it up on Google after I saw this topic.

 

[IlPadrino]

I thought they referred to one as a PgMP and the other as a PMP. Not that I know anything about it - I looked it up on Google after I saw this topic.

There is definately the PgMP, but it's a new program (like something less than a year old) so I can imagine KA would have been talking about it like he had seen it anywhere. He must be talking about something else.

 

[KnowledgeAcquirer]

There is definately the PgMP, but it's a new program (like something less than a year old) so I can imagine KA would have been talking about it like he had seen it anywhere. He must be talking about something else.

PgMP is a relatively new program. For those who've been around a long time (I'm dating myself here), defense/aerospace companies such as Lockheed, TRW, Boeing, Rockwell, Hughes, Martin Marietta, etc., had Program Management courses (took them through about a year out of college because my company required it) formerly offered through the auspices of the Defense Systems Management College. At that time, there was no such thing as Project Management, only Program Management and the acronym PM meant Program Manager in the DoD/Aerospace sector.

"What goes round comes around" is true. The latest for DoD is "Systems of Systems Engineering". As stated at the IEEE Systems Engineering Council in 2007, "... one could define the Universe as the system". As engineers we realize that systems must be bounded.

 

[KnowledgeAcquirer]

Interesting post... thanks for sharing. Two questions: 1) Do you have a link for the "Program Management Professional" you mentioned? 2) Can you edit your post to specify which PMP you talk about when you use it?

OK, I'm still a "newbie" to engineerboards.com, but here is an excerpt from the April 2008 PM World Today. I did attempt to upload the PDF file for those at engineerboards.com that want more information. (Seems to be taking an inordinate amount of time for a file of only 106 KB in size to upload). If the file doesn't upload successfully, those who are interested can obtain the PDF file from the following link:

www.pmforum.org/library/second-edition/2008/PDFs/Ward-4-08.pdf

The Project Management Institute (www.pmi.org) is the organization that offers Program Management Professional (PgMP) certification (as of October 2007) so this is pretty recent, and the Project Management Professional (PMP) certification.

DoD Instruction 4150.07, May 29, 2008, actually defines PMP as Pest Management Professional. Thus, one must be aware of the client and sector one is interacting with in order to correctly "be on the same page" with respect to acronyms and their meanings.

PM WORLD TODAY – SECOND EDITIONS – APRIL 2008

Navigating the New PgMP

SM

Credential

By J. LeRoy Ward, PMP, PgMP

In October 2007, the Project Management Institute (PMI®) began offering its first

credential that demonstrates skills in the emerging discipline of program

management, the Program Management Professional (PgMP

SM

). I say emerging

because, while program management has long been an accepted profession and

practice within the U.S. government, particularly the Department of Defense, it has

just recently gained more interest and acceptance in commercial applications

around the world.

Program management deals with the many complex interdependencies between

component projects and helps ensure that projects align with an organization’s

overall strategy. In other words, program management is really about delivering

business results and benefits. The PgMP

SM

recognizes that a program manager,

while needing skills in project management, needs to also have strong business

skills and acumen to be successful.

Earning Your PgMP

SM

Before we talk specifics, let me ask you this. Have you ever helped your friend

move a piano up a flight of stairs? Have you ever climbed Mt. Everest, wrestled a

bear or lifted a Volkswagen Beatle over your head? Now think about doing all these

things at the same time and you’ll have an idea of what it takes to actually earn

your PgMP

SM

.

OK, I’m exaggerating. There weren’t any bears involved; however, I can tell you

from firsthand experience that PMI® hasn’t made this process easy — nor should

they have. From documenting literally thousands of hours of experience to a

grueling exam to an assessment by 12 of your colleagues, it’s as much a test of

endurance as it is experience and intellect.

So, for the benefit of any of you who might be seriously thinking of going after your

own PgMP

SM

— and, judging from all the buzz at this year’s PMI® Global Congress

 

[IlPadrino]

PgMP is a relatively new program. For those who've been around a long time (I'm dating myself here), defense/aerospace companies such as Lockheed, TRW, Boeing, Rockwell, Hughes, Martin Marietta, etc., had Program Management courses (took them through about a year out of college because my company required it) formerly offered through the auspices of the Defense Systems Management College. At that time, there was no such thing as Project Management, only Program Management and the acronym PM meant Program Manager in the DoD/Aerospace sector.
"What goes round comes around" is true. The latest for DoD is "Systems of Systems Engineering". As stated at the IEEE Systems Engineering Council in 2007, "... one could define the Universe as the system". As engineers we realize that systems must be bounded.

Yeah... PgMP is a new program... was that what you were talking about in your first post regarding two PMPs? If so, I'd suggest it's too early to tell how industry, government, or the DoD will react to this certification.