dont wear american flags on mexico's holiday

[MA_PE]

Wearing a confederate flag on mlk day may be "wrong" but the confederate flag in itself is not morally wrong. People use it in an immoral way which is the only reason the connection exist. Slaves came to this country under ships with English, French, and us flags. I challenge you to find a CSA flagbearing ship that brought any to the states. Of course all they teach kids in school these days is that the war against northern agression was all about slavery.

And I don't doubt the kids were provoking other students but again the us flag represents all us citizens regardless of where they came from.

It is my understanding that the fundamental reason the confederate flag exists is because the south wanted to secede from the union because they did not want to abolish slavery. I guess that I'm one of those northerners that was was taught that. Please educate me.

 

[MGX]

Cinco de Mayo has not a thing to do with Mexican independence. Independence day in Mexico is celebrated in September.

As for my two cents the patriotic kids were probably intentionally being dicks, but as far as I know being an asshole isn't a crime.

 

[benbo]

I guess my Peruvian immigrant wife and her Peruvian immigrant sisters who support the Arizona law will be surprised to learn they are anti Hispanic bigots.

I am not a big supporter of that law, for a number of reasons. So at least I can be content that I'm not a racist.

I also enjoy how people just make up facts that aren't given and use that to form opinions. Suppose we just assume, for the sake of argument, that all these kids did was wear the shirts. Regardless of motivation. If you think that every kid at high school who ever did something intended to rile up another kid is getting this same treatment, you sure went to a different kind of high school than I did. We need to respect the set rules, which did NOT priohibit wearing this shirt. We need to enforce them equally. If it stirs somebody up, then both groups should be sent home. I for one do not find school adminisitrators to be infallible and without their own biases.

 

[Master slacker]

^ So if I am an American citizen who happens to have brown skin, and find myself in Arizona being harassed by dumbshit racist clerks who think this law gives them an excuse to exercize their prejudices against people who aren't white, I should just leave?

So if I am an American citizen who happens to have white skin, and find myself passed-over for a job because of stupid shit laws that unfairly give those of non-white descent a higher spot on the pole (regardless of qualifications), I shouldn't be upset?

To answer your question, though, I never said you should leave. If you're here illegally, you're here illegally and are therefore a criminal. If the punishment is deportation, so be it. They have no right to cry that they're not being treated fairly. Illegals know what they're doing. Also, racists are everywhere and have every color of skin. People get mistaken for the real criminal all the time and get dragged to jail. If anyone thinks they'll be harassed, maybe they should carry paperwork with them to prove their citizenship. I'm sure Arizona will publish what will suffice. Hell, I carry my DL, credit cards, business cards, insurance cards, ATM card, cash, phone, and keys with me all the time. Is another piece of paper or two really too much to ask? As an aside - white people are not immune from racial laws. Ever seen anyone of Mexican descent with similar skin tone as a "white" person? Boy, I have.

Finally, why are people all jumping on the ship defending those who are here illegally in the first place? For the past 10+ years, the presidency has promised to crack down on illegal immigration, but all have dropped the ball and taxpayers suffer the consequences. However, when Arizona, which has all types of problems with drugs, crime, financial hardship that all stem from this immigration boom, decides to take matters into their own hands and save itself, everyone gets in a tizzy. I really don't give a rat's ass if the illegal is Mexican, Canadian, Pakistani, or frickin' British. My tax dollars, which always seem to be taken from me faster and faster, are funding all types of programs for these illegals. "But they pay social security if they are using an anonymous SS# to get a job!" So? You think SS will benefit anyone in 10 years? BTW, one of my great-grandmothers came over on a boat from Germany (learned the English language), another was full blood Native American (learned the English language, too), and countless others in my family came from Britain... ALL LEGALLY!

While we're at it, let's kill the law that forces convicted child molesters to register their whereabouts, notify their neighbors, and have it on their records. They're being discriminated against because potential employers will see this information and won't want to hire them. Boo-f'ing-hoo.

:violin:

Cliff's Notes: Illegal is illegal is illegal. Doing something illegal makes you a criminal. Criminals should face the consequences. Sometimes good people get mistaken for criminals. If you're in Arizona, help yourself prevent a mistake onto you. Today's laws positively and negatively affect everyone. You can't make everyone happy. Discrimination is everywhere.

[/rant]

 

[RIP - VTEnviro]

Wearing a confederate flag on mlk day may be "wrong" but the confederate flag in itself is not morally wrong. People use it in an immoral way which is the only reason the connection exist. Slaves came to this country under ships with English, French, and us flags. I challenge you to find a CSA flagbearing ship that brought any to the states. Of course all they teach kids in school these days is that the war against northern agression was all about slavery.

And I don't doubt the kids were provoking other students but again the us flag represents all us citizens regardless of where they came from.

It is my understanding that the fundamental reason the confederate flag exists is because the south wanted to secede from the union because they did not want to abolish slavery. I guess that I'm one of those northerners that was was taught that. Please educate me.

Ditto for me.

That's ok, the curriculum in the northwest is basically all Lewis and Clark, and some war we fought in seventeen seventy-something. (My MIL is a middle school teacher in WA)

 

[jmbeck]

It is my understanding that the fundamental reason the confederate flag exists is because the south wanted to secede from the union because they did not want to abolish slavery. I guess that I'm one of those northerners that was was taught that. Please educate me.

The north did not want to abolish slavery. The north didn't want new states to have the choice to be a "free state" or a "slave state". It this instance, the south fought for "state's rights" while the north wanted central rule. However, there were some instances were the North advocated individual state rights over federal rule, while the south believed centralized government was the right path.

Bottom line, you had two different economies that worked together, but had different interests. These different interests led to irreconcilable differences.

The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't an effort to end slavery as much as it was a strategic war move. It stated that states that did not return to the Union by 1863 would be freed. The second order, issued in 1863, specifically named the 10 states that comprised of the confederacy. It did not free the slaves in the border states of TN, the counties that would comprise WV, Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, or Delaware. Abolition did not come in these states until the 13th ammendment, 7 months after the end of the war.

The southern states and the northern states were at odds on a lot of issues, not just slavery.

That being said, I'm a United States American. That was a dark time in our history, and it tore a lot of families apart. It should be remembered, it should be respected, but it should be remembered as a difficult time. It shouldn't be made a mockery of with gaudy displays and as a platform for racism.

We don't have to sit here and discuss the merits of slavery. If someone can't see that it was wrong, then I can't help that person. And the war, no matter the intent, weakened our country and killed 620,000 of our young men in uniform, and who knows how many civilians. Luckily, we were united again and became the greatest country on earth. Had the South won, and we'd have attempted to function as separate countries, I doubt either would still be under it's own rule today.

 

[MA_PE]

The north did not want to abolish slavery. The north didn't want new states to have the choice to be a "free state" or a "slave state". It this instance, the south fought for "state's rights" while the north wanted central rule. However, there were some instances were the North advocated individual state rights over federal rule, while the south believed centralized government was the right path.
Bottom line, you had two different economies that worked together, but had different interests. These different interests led to irreconcilable differences.

Beck: Thanks for flashback history lesson. Maybe the North didn't specifically include language to abolish slavery, but they knew it was wrong. You say "two different economies that worked together, but had different interests. These different interests led to irreconcilable differences." The southern economy was built on and depended on slave labor. I still believe that that's where the fundamental difference was. Political jargon was, is. and will always be, political jargon.

I still believe that the civil war was about slavery, you have not convinced me otherwise, and as such the Confederate flag (whether it's intended or not) will always have a racist stigma associated with it (no matter how cool it looks on the General Lee). I certainly appreciate that not everyone who flies/displays the Confederate flag is a racist but they should be cognizant that not everyone shares this POV.

Now I think I'll fire up the bandit and head down past the Massy-Dixie line and have me some 'shine.

 

[Master slacker]

... and as such the Confederate flag (whether it's intended or not) will always have a racist stigma associated with it (no matter how cool it looks on the General Lee). I certainly appreciate that not everyone who flies/displays the Confederate flag is a racist but they should be cognizant that not everyone shares this POV.

It's a shame that ignorance and assumptions trump truth and self-inquiry every day. Similarly, the swastika (and likenesses) will forever be labeled only to the Nazis and not the Hindu or Native American cultures.

 

[jmbeck]

I still believe that the civil war was about slavery, you have not convinced me otherwise...

That's certainly your prerogative, history simply won't support your opinion.

There was a large faction in the north that tolerated slavery, but was for the war simply in an effort to preserve the union.

As I stated, slavery was and is absolutely morally wrong. But, to boil the civil war down to the "good people of the north trying to make the wicked south free the slaves" is historically innaccurate.

Study a little on the northern war democrats and the New York draft riots. The northern states may have abolished slavery, but racism was just as strong in the north as it was in the south.

 

[Road Guy]

The south seceded for many of the same reasons the original colonies fought for their independence, taxation without representation and states rights, tariff's etc. Slavery was one of the issues but if you put your 1862 hat on, do you really think that half a million Yankees died fighting to free slaves? Do you think half a million "rebs" who didnt own slaves died fighting to keep them?

 

[MA_PE]

The northern states may have abolished slavery, but racism was just as strong in the north as it was in the south.

Based on my life expereince here in the north, I'd have to disagree with that. I'm not saying that there were/aren't racists in the north but comparing the two populations there is a heck of a lot more tolerence in the north. History has pretty much demonstrated that.

do you really think that half a million Yankees died fighting to free slaves? Do you think half a million "rebs" who didnt own slaves died fighting to keep them?

Statements like that can be made about any war throughout history. Money is always the driving force. The wealthiest southerners used slave labor. They were the ones pulling the strings and pushing for war to preserve their wealthy lifestyle.

The Yanks were very sympathetic to human rights and did not want a hostile entity on the border.

 

[JavaJim]

The civil war may be over but the debate about how and why it started will go on for hundreds of years.

 

[IlPadrino]

The south seceded for many of the same reasons the original colonies fought for their independence, taxation without representation and states rights, tariff's etc. Slavery was one of the issues but if you put your 1862 hat on, do you really think that half a million Yankees died fighting to free slaves? Do you think half a million "rebs" who didnt own slaves died fighting to keep them?

All this talk of slavery reminded me of the latest PC "crap" that's being taught in school. My six-grader was told that heretowithforth, slaves that were coming to the U.S. on slave ships are to be called "African-American indentured servants". Unfortunately, he didn't have the courage to ask his teacher how someone who hasn't even hit the eastern short is entitled to the "american" label.

Not to hijack the thread, but I really dislike the term African-American. I'm a White American but probably have ancestors that come from Africa (if we go far enough back, maybe we all do). Can I start filling in the "African-American" block?

 

[MA_PE]

WHAM and proud.

White Heterosexual American Male

 

[benbo]

WHAM and proud.
White Heterosexual American Male

WHAM - George Michael.

Two out of four.

 

[EM_PS]

^Pwn3d! :lmao:

 

[MGX]

John Kerry's wife is the only African-American I can think of.

 

[RIP - VTEnviro]

WHAM and proud.
White Heterosexual American Male

WHAM - George Michael.

Two out of four.

 

[Dleg]

While we're at it, let's kill the law that forces convicted child molesters to register their whereabouts, notify their neighbors, and have it on their records. They're being discriminated against because potential employers will see this information and won't want to hire them. Boo-f'ing-hoo.
:violin:

Excellent analogy! Incorrectly applied, though. But still useful:

Child molestation was and still is illegal, and convicted child molesters were and still are required to register and carry ID. The Arizona law, if applied to the child molester analogy, gives the police the right to question anyone, at any time, to ascertain whether or not they are a registered child molester. Sounds OK, right? I mean, child molesters have committed an illegal act to begin with, right?

So let's say you're a good parent who has never touched your child's private parts for any reason other than to bathe them. You're certainly no child molester. You could be out at the mall, with your kids, and a policeman could decide that he doesn't like the way you look at your feet when he looks your way (hey, how could he know you're an engineer?), so he comes over to you, in front of your family and perhaps some friends you have met up with, and says "May I see your child molester registration card?"

You say "I don't have a child molester registration card. I'm not a child molester!" Your friends look at each other. Passing mall-goers gather, wondering if they will get to witness the arrest of a notorious child molester. At this point, the policeman is authrorized, by law, to use professional judgment, perhaps based on some training, to decide whether to haul you in to the police station for further investigation, or let you go.

That would be pretty embarassing, wouldn't it? Infuriating? Degrading???

Not to mention seeming a little unconstitutional, what with all that guilty-until-proven-innocent stuff. I thought we were all about protecting the Constitution around here?

That's why people are upset about the Arizona law.

Good analogy!

 

[Master slacker]

... so he comes over to you, in front of your family and perhaps some friends you have met up with, and says "May I see your child molester registration card?"
You say "I don't have a child molester registration card. I'm not a child molester!"

Hence my assumption...

If anyone thinks they'll be harassed, maybe they should carry paperwork with them to prove their citizenship. I'm sure Arizona will publish what will suffice. Hell, I carry my DL, credit cards, business cards, insurance cards, ATM card, cash, phone, and keys with me all the time. Is another piece of paper or two really too much to ask?