dont wear american flags on mexico's holiday

[ElCid03]

Even if they wore it to provoke the Mexicans, they shouldn't have been asked to remove them, for Pete's sake. It is the American Flag and last time I heard, this was still America.
It isn't like white kids wearing the Confederate flag shirt on MLK day.

Actually here in the second capital of the Confederate States of America we celebrated Lee, Jackson, and King on the same day in January until I was in high school. Mind you this was after Doug Wilder had served as governor.

 

[ElCid03]

It is my understanding that the fundamental reason the confederate flag exists is because the south wanted to secede from the union because they did not want to abolish slavery. I guess that I'm one of those northerners that was was taught that. Please educate me.

The north did not want to abolish slavery. The north didn't want new states to have the choice to be a "free state" or a "slave state". It this instance, the south fought for "state's rights" while the north wanted central rule. However, there were some instances were the North advocated individual state rights over federal rule, while the south believed centralized government was the right path.

Bottom line, you had two different economies that worked together, but had different interests. These different interests led to irreconcilable differences.

The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't an effort to end slavery as much as it was a strategic war move. It stated that states that did not return to the Union by 1863 would be freed. The second order, issued in 1863, specifically named the 10 states that comprised of the confederacy. It did not free the slaves in the border states of TN, the counties that would comprise WV, Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, or Delaware. Abolition did not come in these states until the 13th ammendment, 7 months after the end of the war.

The southern states and the northern states were at odds on a lot of issues, not just slavery.

That being said, I'm a United States American. That was a dark time in our history, and it tore a lot of families apart. It should be remembered, it should be respected, but it should be remembered as a difficult time. It shouldn't be made a mockery of with gaudy displays and as a platform for racism.

We don't have to sit here and discuss the merits of slavery. If someone can't see that it was wrong, then I can't help that person. And the war, no matter the intent, weakened our country and killed 620,000 of our young men in uniform, and who knows how many civilians. Luckily, we were united again and became the greatest country on earth. Had the South won, and we'd have attempted to function as separate countries, I doubt either would still be under it's own rule today.

Someone did not watch the Ken Burn's film very closely.

Lincoln was facing a difficult reelection campaign that had started up in 1863 for the Election of 1864. His opponet was George McClellan, the Army of the Potomac Commander he had fired twice. Lincoln did not have a snowball's chance in hell of winning the election unless General Meade could deliver him a Union victory in the eastern theater. Lincoln also needed the aboltionist vote but if he tackled emancipation without victory then he would risk alienating the significant northern population that was indifferent towards abolition. Two key things happened with a few days of July 1863: first Meade defeated Lee at Gettysburg (Actually Lee defeated himself but that is for another day...); second Grant took Vicksburg and control of the Mississippi River with it. Lincoln was able to take on the political risk of abolition once he had decisive victories. This is how a war that was first fought to preserve the union then became one about the question of slavery.

 

[benbo]

... so he comes over to you, in front of your family and perhaps some friends you have met up with, and says "May I see your child molester registration card?"
You say "I don't have a child molester registration card. I'm not a child molester!"

Hence my assumption...

If anyone thinks they'll be harassed, maybe they should carry paperwork with them to prove their citizenship. I'm sure Arizona will publish what will suffice. Hell, I carry my DL, credit cards, business cards, insurance cards, ATM card, cash, phone, and keys with me all the time. Is another piece of paper or two really too much to ask?

You see, this is why I would agree with Dleg to some extent. Slacker, none of those documents you listed would prove your legal right to stay here. People in California can get a driver's license while on a temporary visa, then just overstay their visa and have a perfectly good DL. I would need to carry my Passport with me, which I don't really want to do. Although I'll be honest and say being lily white I wouldn't really worry about it. I've come up through the border monitoring spot here by Camp Pendleton (about 40 miles north of the border) and the only time they haven't just waved me through was when I was with my Hispanic wife,and once when I was with a Filipino buddy.

Howver, I do believe the law is a reaction to a real problem, but was poorly thought out. I get really annoyed when peeople chalk this up to racism (although in a minority of cases it could be). I fully understand the frustration of the people who support this law. THe feds aren't doing their job controlling the border. I particularly understand the frustration of my wife who waited her turn and paid a lot of money to naturalize, and already carries her permanent resident card with her everywhere she goes. She gets no brownie points for obeying the law.

It's like this new law proposed by Lieberman and Scott Brown- to strip possible terror suspects of citizenship. I don't thinkyuou should be able to do something that radical without full due process. But I understand the sentiment behind it.

 

[rudy]

Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal's office.

Sounds like there is more to the story... like they got in trouble because of the bandannas. Times have changed. When we were in school, no bandannas were allowed.

Agree with the sentiment... they should be able to wear the American flag on any day. as long as it's not disrespectful... like Will Ferrell wearing the American flag short shorts in SNL.

 

[Master slacker]

You see, this is why I would agree with Dleg to some extent. Slacker, none of those documents you listed would prove your legal right to stay here. People in California can get a driver's license while on a temporary visa, then just overstay their visa and have a perfectly good DL. I would need to carry my Passport with me, which I don't really want to do.

Hence my assumption...

If anyone thinks they'll be harassed, maybe they should carry paperwork with them to prove their citizenship. I'm sure Arizona will publish what will suffice. Hell, I carry my DL, credit cards, business cards, insurance cards, ATM card, cash, phone, and keys with me all the time. Is another piece of paper or two really too much to ask?

When the fire has already engulfed the garage, will you try to put the garage fire out in hopes of saving what's left of it, or will you knock it down and hope to save the rest of the house?

 

[benbo]

If anyone thinks they'll be harassed, maybe they should carry paperwork with them to prove their citizenship. I'm sure Arizona will publish what will suffice. Hell, I carry my DL, credit cards, business cards, insurance cards, ATM card, cash, phone, and keys with me all the time. Is another piece of paper or two really too much to ask?

When the fire has already engulfed the garage, will you try to put the garage fire out in hopes of saving what's left of it, or will you knock it down and hope to save the rest of the house?

I didn't understand what you wrote because you put this-

If anyone thinks they'll be harassed, maybe they should carry paperwork with them to prove their citizenship

The law would be fair if it said "Everybody must carry this card when out of their home. They will be stopped randomly and asked to produce it."

But that's not what the law says, and if it did you would hear a lot more complaints. I can tell by the amount of people who complain about airport security.

In my state at least, I'd bet that most illegals are Hispanic. So thinking that a Hispanic is more likely to be illegal is not racist , it's demographic. But it's not fair to put an extra burden on a Hispanic citizen just because they have brown skin. As it is, I wouldn't worry about this at all, merely because I'm white.

If you could figure out an acceptable way to make it apply to everyone I'd be all for it. Or, for example, if they said "If you come to a public hospital for medical benefits you must be legal or after providing emergency treatment we will deport you." that would seem fair to me. Of course, a lot of people would complain about that too, as being cruel.

To me it's a distraction and a sideshow. I can pretty much guarantee you almost nobody will ever get deported through this law. Arizona can't deport anybody. It's a law that makes one jurisdiction (Federal) prosecute and penalize a crime investigated by another jurisdiction, under a different statute (State). Let's see how long that ends up in court.

And you think the Obama justice department is going to jump to deport people Arizona cops arrest? It's so political it's not going to accomplish anything. The feds should be doing this, they should build a big double fence, make absolutely certain illegals get no public benefits, they should penalize employers, they should start deporting people they find here illegally through investigation.

 

[MGX]

Has no one seen the Penn and Teller Bullshit! on immigration? A wall would be useless unless it was like the Berlin Wall with spikes, guard towers and razor wire; that would kick ass but noone would want to pay the taxes to build it. We're a nation of laws until we discuss immigration.

 

[rudy]

Yet "Los Suns" were applauded for wearing Spanglish uniforms in response to Arizona's new law. Go figure.

$80 dollars for the shirt... yeah, and sleeves not included

 

[benbo]

Has no one seen the Penn and Teller Bullshit! on immigration? A wall would be useless unless it was like the Berlin Wall with spikes, guard towers and razor wire; that would kick ass but noone would want to pay the taxes to build it. We're a nation of laws until we discuss immigration.

And what's wrong with making the fence like that? It works pretty well in Gaza. Why is that somehow worse than running around asking people for their papers based on a belief they were illegal? At least then you would know the people trying to come over the wall were actually doing something wrong.

And assuming it didn't work, what is your plan to keep them out? Why not just close the border stations completely and round them up after they run in.

Glad you get your information from Penn and Teller.

 

[rudy]

Penn and Teller? are they planning to make the wall disappear as part of their majic act?

The sad part is that the wall will be built by immigrants on the promise of a decent paying job.

 

[MGX]

Has no one seen the Penn and Teller Bullshit! on immigration? A wall would be useless unless it was like the Berlin Wall with spikes, guard towers and razor wire; that would kick ass but noone would want to pay the taxes to build it. We're a nation of laws until we discuss immigration.

And what's wrong with making the fence like that? It works pretty well in Gaza. Why is that somehow worse than running around asking people for their papers based on a belief they were illegal? At least then you would know the people trying to come over the wall were actually doing something wrong.

And assuming it didn't work, what is your plan to keep them out? Why not just close the border stations completely and round them up after they run in.

Glad you get your information from Penn and Teller.

Personally I have no silver bullet to prevent illegal immigration. Here in Oklahoma we do have a considerable amount of illegal (Mexican) immigrants but mostly they don't cause too much trouble. All the Guatemalans, Hondurans, Venezuelans and others from South America I know are legal immigrants or on student visas.

Only one or two thoughts emerge. One is to strictly enforce minimum wage laws to apply to legal and illegal persons, if such could be enforced then any motivation to hire illegal labor for cheaper wages would evaporate. Second could be some draconian methods we've applied in my state; that is anyone offering protection and housing to illegal immigrants faces severe financial penalties.

On the whole, the border jumpers in my state are looking for work so they can send money back home to their families. We do have some bad apples that get in and cause trouble. Whatever that percentage is we don't know since tracking how many illegals enter and how many cause trouble is tenuous at best.

There are many 'white' Mexicans, but rarely do they seem to jump the border. Call me racists but I've seen too many white looking people speaking only Spanish and driving very nice cars with Mexican plates to believe otherwise. If you think that's racist you're a racist for thinking 'brown' people are illegals.

 

[rudy]

So on the face of it, perhaps you can claim that the Arizona law is not racist. But it is resulting in people lashing out at "brown people" now.

I feel bad for the sun lovers and sun bathers... wondering if tanning businesses will be closing down.

 

[Kephart P.E.]

And the Repulicans cannot figure out why they seem to keep losing ground...shocking.

If you're illegal, you're illegal. HELLO! McFLY!!! GTFO
If you don't support the Arizona law, go pound sand.

If you're an American, you're an American. Wear that flag on any God-given day you want.

 

[Kephart P.E.]

And Cinco de Mayo isn't a holiday in the US, celebrate to your hearts content, but it isn't a federally recognized day. Deal with it.

That being said, school districts can make kids take off or change any clothing that disrupts school, I doubt the ACLU gets involved.

Cinco de Mayo has not a thing to do with Mexican independence. Independence day in Mexico is celebrated in September.
As for my two cents the patriotic kids were probably intentionally being dicks, but as far as I know being an asshole isn't a crime.

 

[Capt Worley PE]

Actually, the Arizona law is promoting racism. There was a story in one of our local papers here int he islands the other day. I'll try to dig it up and post it. Basically, a couple of islander kids (teenager-college aged), who had moved to Arizona with their families several years ago, went to a Wal-mart to use some sort of money wiring service to send money back to their relatives here in the islands, and the clerk at the Wal-mart asked to see their immigration papers or other ID to prove that they were US citizens, because of the new law.
So on the face of it, perhaps you can claim that the Arizona law is not racist. But it is resulting in people lashing out at "brown people" now.

Here's the article:

http://www.saipantribune.com/newsstory.asp...99325&cat=1

Something is up with that article. Only the police can ask for ID, not clerks at Wallyworld. I suspect the Castros were telling a tale.

 

[Dleg]

That's possible. But then again, it might just be that certain individuals who were already upset about illegal immigrants, or simply harboring racial prejudices, now feel empowered to look out for illegal immigrants on their own.

Kids growing up in Saipan have some good experience with that. Things aren't as bad here now as they were in the 90s, but back then, it was common for store clerks, policemen, government workers, and even just ordinary island residents to demand to see someone's immigration ID, oftentimes out of pure intent to intimidate. I personally saw this happen on one of our jogging paths, of all places, when some middle-aged island resident got angry about an obvious immigrant worker riding his bicycle on the path (he wasn't supposed to), and she stood in his way and castigated him, and then demanded he produce his ID card.

Personally, I had to work for over a year to get my inspection staff to stop doing the same thing to construction workers and field engineers over simple erosion control violations. It was extremely embarrassing for me, but these guys thought nothing of it, because the police did it all the time, and our local immigration law (we were, until last year, independent of the US immigration system) required aliens to carry their IDs with them. They would get mad because a silt fence wasn't in place, and the foreman wasn't repsecting them, so they would remind the foreman of his place by demanding his ID. Worked every time.

So yeah, it's possible these kids are lying, but it's also possible that some disgruntled clerk at a Walmart actually did this to them.

 

[EM_PS]

^ so was that (Saipan) considered racist profiling?

 

[Road Guy]

Saw these kids on tv and it was obvious they did this to stoke the fires. But this is after all America......

& just as I am sure people in Saipan wouldn't put faith in a story about their island in the Atlanta journal I wouldn't put much faith in something written half a globe away...

The states are granted the right to make laws under the constitution and my thought s if you don't live in Arizona it's not your problem. When there was a big construction boom in atlanta their were tons of "new pilgrims" taking up space in school, but we have congress to thank for that also . Ever since they left schools aren't so overcrowded, jails are not as full, those may not sound like big things but they are a huge drain on a local budget.

Espcially when they go to wal mart and wire all their money back to 'home' and such

 

[Dleg]

^ so was that (Saipan) considered racist profiling?

Yes. It was horrible, despicable treatment of other human beings, and is a big part of why the US Congress decided to exercise its authority under our Covenant to step in and take immigration control away. The only people that defended the CNMI's immigration system, at the time, were Tom Delay and Jack Abramoff.

The states are granted the right to make laws under the constitution and my thought s if you don't live in Arizona it's not your problem. When there was a big construction boom in atlanta their were tons of "new pilgrims" taking up space in school, but we have congress to thank for that also . Ever since they left schools aren't so overcrowded, jails are not as full, those may not sound like big things but they are a huge drain on a local budget.
Espcially when they go to wal mart and wire all their money back to 'home' and such

You can't hang your hat on one part of the constitution and ignore the other parts. Immigration control is the function of the federal government, not the states.

 

[Road Guy]

i see it that arizona is merely enforcing what is already law, it is against the law to be in this country illegally. like others have said look what mexico's stance is towards illegal immigrants, pretty severe compared to ours.. I hope other states adopt similar measures.

& when I refer to the constitution I mean the original draft, anything added after that is just crap IMO...