DONE with United Airlines

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knight1fox3 said:
TNSparky said:
I've been told flying is easy. It's landing that's hard. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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@Flyer_PE, is this true? :huh:
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To a certain extent, it is.  In a tricycle gear aircraft with no appreciable cross-wind, anybody can pretty much firewall the throttle and get in the air.  Keeping it there can be a bit of a trick.

One of my favorite sayings is still: "Flying is the second biggest thrill on earth.  Landing is the first."

 
Flyer_PE said:
One of my favorite sayings is still: "Flying is the second biggest thrill on earth.  Landing is the first."
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A friend in the Air Force ROTC had a plaque on the wall with this on it. He flew fighter jets after graduating, now has a desk job (still in the AF).

 
Want to talk about a real crime?

A guy at work (new to area) took spirit airlines and didn't pay attention to those emails and other "small print" - rushed to gate only to find they wouldn't allow him to take a "carry on" bag without paying a late bag fee of $100!!!!

 
TNSparky said:
http://www.staradvertiser.com/2017/04/10/breaking-news/united-ceo-defends-employees-in-plane-incident/

^^^ Tells you everything you need to know about United's values and culture right there. Very poor. Very nonchalant attitude towards customers. If we wanted to be treated like baggage or a package, we'd fly FedEx....would probably still get treated better on one of their planes than a United flight. 
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If they can ship Waterford crystal and have it arrive not broken (in most cases), I like my odds.

 
Audi driver said:
It's a private business with contractual rules for the passengers being there.  The contract was broken by the customer.  I hope any blame for rough treatment is placed where it belongs: on security and the police.
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Have you ever actually read the contract that goes with a plane ticket?  Here is United's:  https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx  It's a couple hundred pages long.  Show me what the guy did to violate it.

I've never read United's contract of carriage, but I have read Delta's (it's handy to know the actual rules when you fly 100 flights a year) and there are very specific procedures on how to handle an overbooking situation.  Without these specific procedures, the Department of Transportation (which regulates airline operations) would not allow an airline to overbook a flight.  From the reports I've read, it appears United did not follow their own procedures for bumping passengers from the flight (relying on randomness rather than a specific order based by time of check-in, etc.).  If these reports are true, then it is United that broke the contract, not the passenger.

I full support the passenger that refused to leave the plane if United was not following their own rules.  Airline gate agents tend to have a god complex and like to make up their own rules rather than follow the ones the airline has actually filed with the DOT.  It's very possible and probably likely that this passenger was having his rights violated, and I think because of this, in the end he'll probably settle for a large sum of money from the airline.

Something to keep in mind is this was likely not a flight run by United, but a 50 seat jet that is owned and operated by a subcontractor.  This likely played a role in the employees not being fully trained in the airline's procedures.

 
The video has something on the order of 10 million views.  This is a PR nightmare for the airline.  Their stock is off around 5% in pre-market trading.  Their market cap just took a billion-dollar hit.  I bet they sure are glad they stopped the bidding at $800.00.

Too bad UAL is too big to fail.  If it were allowed to go bankrupt, maybe the assets would now be under competent management.

 
mudpuppy said:
Have you ever actually read the contract that goes with a plane ticket?  Here is United's:  https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx  It's a couple hundred pages long.  Show me what the guy did to violate it.

I've never read United's contract of carriage, but I have read Delta's (it's handy to know the actual rules when you fly 100 flights a year) and there are very specific procedures on how to handle an overbooking situation.  Without these specific procedures, the Department of Transportation (which regulates airline operations) would not allow an airline to overbook a flight.  From the reports I've read, it appears United did not follow their own procedures for bumping passengers from the flight (relying on randomness rather than a specific order based by time of check-in, etc.).  If these reports are true, then it is United that broke the contract, not the passenger.

I full support the passenger that refused to leave the plane if United was not following their own rules.  Airline gate agents tend to have a god complex and like to make up their own rules rather than follow the ones the airline has actually filed with the DOT.  It's very possible and probably likely that this passenger was having his rights violated, and I think because of this, in the end he'll probably settle for a large sum of money from the airline.

Something to keep in mind is this was likely not a flight run by United, but a 50 seat jet that is owned and operated by a subcontractor.  This likely played a role in the employees not being fully trained in the airline's procedures.
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I'm with RG on this one.

In the contract provided my MP there is a specific section (Rule 25) addressing overbooking.  The process for denying passengers involuntarily is

"The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment."

they outline compensation up to 400% of the ticket price+.

Rule 21 is Refusal of Transport and addressing removing people from the plane.  Reason number one is "Breach if the Contract of Carriage"

Bottom line is Mr. Whiny Doctor needed a better reason than "I want to go home".

Everytime someone stages a "sit-in" and then gets forcibly removed people are aghast that the so-called "pacifist" is handled roughly.  Planes are very cramped and trying to get someone forcibly off may result in someone getting whacked.  Rules are rules.  He was selected....bummer.  Get off the plane like the other 3 guys.  Take you money and get home later.  I suspect if this guy had a reasonable excuse like he had surgery scheduled or something then they would've picked someone else.  Also missing in this story is when they were going to put him on another flight or they could've driven him the 5 hours.  So we're really talking about 5-6 hours that this guy was whining about.  He should get NOTHING.

 
TNSparky said:
I feel bad for the other passengers. I feel bad for the cops. I don't know the other passengers' stories. I only know the doc's in this one. As for the cops, I feel terrible for them too. They should not be in a position of doing airline's dirty work. The policy ought to be from law enforcement to the airlines: This is YOUR problem. YOU made it. YOU'RE gonna solve it. It's not our job to remove passengers form your overbooked flight because you can't understand the concept of one physical passenger per seat.
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No you don't.  You're just one more in a long line of sheep preaching how awful United is.  Look into it a little more than your Facebook feed and you would know that United has a system in place to figure out who would be the least inconvenienced by having to take another flight.  He was going to Louisville, not trying to make a connection in Louisville.  They spent quite a bit of time with him trying to explain this to him and get him off the plane.  I'm willing to bet they told him they'd get him on another flight at a later time but he preached to them that, how dare they, because he's a doctor.

Yeah, United was trying to make room to move their people around.  It happens.  Get over it.  It's their business and that's how things work sometimes to keep the flights going where they need to go.  They did what was within their power to try and remedy the situation.  Once he refused to leave because "he's a doctor", he's no different than any other unruly passenger who has been forcibly removed from a plane.

BTW, if it was so vital that he be in Louisville, then I'm willing to be that the hospital/doctor would have made different arrangements to get him there.  Flights are delayed/cancelled all the time.

 
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Here's a perspective from another airline employee. Not agreeing/disagreeing, just posting for discussion.

Not knowing the full details, I must come to the defense of United Airlines, although I do believe they mishandled the situation. When a crew MUST be flown to cover a trip, this is called "deadheading a crew." To further clarify, a passenger CAN have a ticket/seat, etc. but may be on stand by status, as he/she is confirmed for a later flight but is considered Stand By Status for an earlier flight. This past weekend was a traveler's nightmare; tornadoes, hail storms, thunderstorms, wind shear, logistical chaos for air travel. Delta had it's own share of chaos, with stranded passengers, stranded crew members, re-routed crews, shortage of hotel rooms, etc. Now, compound this drama with FAA rules and regulations which dictate that crews must have legal rest breaks after lengthy duty days, Delta purchased 450 PIZZAS to feed stranded passengers, extra supplies of food/beverage/snacks, etc, PLUS Medallion Level Loyalty customers, volunteering their time to help the operation, etc. Yes, nerves are stretched and frustration mounts and unfortunate situations happen. I'm sure there is so much more to the United story than what is being reported. I know the removed passenger/doctor was offered monetary compensation and somehow it escalated from there. Another couple was removed from the flight without incident. From the looks of the videos I have viewed, this removed man seems quite irrational, quick to enrage, and then after he is injured/bloodied, he is babbling and disoriented. All of this behavior is an FAA violation of many sorts: interfering with crew member duties, threatening the safety of the flight and it's passengers, etc. I'm sure there's enough blame to go around, but if removing 4 passengers so a deadheading crew can cover a trip in Louisville, then that is a necessary step to save another entire aircraft of passengers from being stranded. Just my humble observation and I'm sure there's much more to this story. Air travel is an imperfect science, subjected to the whims of Mother Nature and there is a factor/formula for overbooking by different percentages for different markets. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Hotels also overbook for the same reason. The objective is 100% occupancy. Just my humble opinion.....
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Flight attendants are part of the flight crew and as such are subject to the same crew rest periods required by the FAA. For the most part they just get you Coke, but they also are the ones who are supposed to get your ass off the burning plane. 

 
Whatever your argument may be, United is a business that only survives because customers are willing to pay a price for a service.  Now there may be a minority of people who will fly with them no matter what, but most people will see treatment like this, and arguments like those presented above in defense of such treatment, and choose to fly another airline.  Tough shit.  That's the free market in action.  I haven't willingly flown United since 2006 when they treated me like shit.  One of these days, and that might well be today, United is going to have to address their customer service problems or face extinction in the market.  No amount of fine print will change that reality.

 
Doctor was charged and convicted of trading prescriptions  for sex, lost license in Kentucky in 2015 and then was reinstated with limited ability to practice..

 
Dleg said:
Whatever your argument may be, United is a business that only survives because customers are willing to pay a price for a service.  Now there may be a minority of people who will fly with them no matter what, but most people will see treatment like this, and arguments like those presented above in defense of such treatment, and choose to fly another airline.  Tough shit.  That's the free market in action.  I haven't willingly flown United since 2006 when they treated me like shit.  One of these days, and that might well be today, United is going to have to address their customer service problems or face extinction in the market.  No amount of fine print will change that reality.
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The problem with this idea is there really aren't a lot of options.  There's only 4 major airlines in the U.S. that fly to the majority of destinations that people want to go to:  American, Delta, United and Southwest.  Between the legacy three (not Southwest) they basically have carved out certain regions that they control.  For instance, Michgian and Georgia are dominated by Delta, while North Carolina and Texas are dominated by American.  If you happen to live in a city that is dominated by United, you may not have a lot of choice without having to take an extra connection to get where you're going.

And for every person like you that's fed up with United, there is another that is fed up with American or Delta and won't fly them--so they end up taking your place at United.  The airlines all know this and that you have no real options, so they put the screws to passengers more and more every year.  And even though they're not officially monopolies, they all mimic each other's rules and fees almost instantly, so there is no real competition.

Southwest is the only nationwide carrier that offers real competition, but it too has it's drawbacks.

 
I've always been treated well with Delta (and previously Northwest - sorry to see them gone).  I have had excellent service on Alaskan.  Out in the Pacific islands/Asia, where the United staff were all former Continental employees, I their service was also very good.  United in the mainland feels like flying with TSA agents, or the bureau of motor vehicles.  I can only assume that this indicates a corporate culture of poor customer service, and a general sense that the employee is always right, contradicting centuries of market lessons.

Fortunately for me, even flying to United's hub, Denver, can be done just as cheaply through either of them from where I am.

 

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