What grade do you give the Engineering Community for Diversity?

[Supe]

I mirror what others said above, that in general in engineering if you have the skills to get the job done, you're accepted into the community.  I give engineering an A for accepting diversity in that respect.  But as far as actually being diverse, I think we're more like a D (but not for a lack of trying.)

Agreed, though I'll give us a B- on the "accepting diversity" front.  

I think it has less to do with the profession itself - I don't think the profession cares for the most part, there are just too many contributing factors at the pre-collegiate level that influence the overall makeup.  Excluding those that have "the knack" (and there are plenty of engineers who don't), I think most of it comes down to poor education at the K-12 level and lack of understanding and difficulty of getting the financial assistance needed to enroll in college, and that comes down to socioeconomic status, which has a strong correlation with race in many (most?) parts of the country.

I'm basing the above comments on American-born population - I think there IS segregation in the industry at the managerial level, but from what I've seen, I think that's attributed more towards a combination of how academics are handled internationally vs. in the states, and the economic status of the country of origin.  I do think US colleges focus more on collaborative efforts/personal interaction than schools from India and China as an example, and when coupled with language barriers, the people with better verbal communication and interpersonal skills gets the promotion, placing the foreign-born workers at an inherent disadvantage.  In respect to overall hiring practices, I think there are also many volume-based engineering firms that know they can hire foreign Engineers on the cheap, with little to no intent to ever promote or offer them professional development opportunities.  

I do know of one manager who is of Asian decent (I'm not sure exactly which country), has a thick accent, but is a nice, intelligent guy.  The company has no problem sending him to ASME meetings, etc. on his own to try and pitch work/build relationships, but when they go to some of the operating plants to try and do the same (e.g. WV/PA area), the company sends the slick-talkin' good ol' boy along with him to try to make the sale.  **** like that is why I can't give the industry an A - I can't fault the company for recognizing the bias and adjusting for it, but the fact that they know up front that their clients across the country have various inherent prejudices says quite a bit about the profession.  

 

[Dean Agnostic]

We've come along way and now is the perfect time to create real reform and change at local, state, and federal level. Although my skin color is yellow, bad driver, cannot speak proper English and with a great smile; certainly, there are hierarchies of competence in my view. So for example, in your local and federal courts, you'll see the preponderance of attorneys/prosecutors are white males. In the NBA and NFL, the majority of players are black. In my psychology class, the majority of students were white intelligent females. Also, there are irreconcilable differences, so, regardless of skin color, if you were left to your own devices, you would certainly choose a career that you enjoy, grow and become very  successful. 

 

[Road Guy]

Federal contracts require a percentage of the contract to be DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprises) - and I find it odd that there really are not a lot of these firms around, we work on projects all over the US and we have a hard time filling this requirement on many jobs we have to pull from firms in other states where we would prefer local firms who know the area -

Ive even tried to talk my wife into going back to school because female owned would meet this requirement - but I wonder what is the push that gets someone to be able to make that leap? The engineering community certainly consists of individuals who have the skills to make this jump, I know some friends I have talked to just lack that first years loss of income they would lose in between leaving "working for the man" and putting out your own shingle?

 

[Supe]

I think that's a huge part of it.  I'd say the overwhelming majority of engineers are risk-averse, and there are few professions that can be viewed as riskier than consulting.

 

[snickerd3]

Federal contracts require a percentage of the contract to be DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprises) - and I find it odd that there really are not a lot of these firms around, we work on projects all over the US and we have a hard time filling this requirement on many jobs we have to pull from firms in other states where we would prefer local firms who know the area -

Ive even tried to talk my wife into going back to school because female owned would meet this requirement - but I wonder what is the push that gets someone to be able to make that leap? The engineering community certainly consists of individuals who have the skills to make this jump, I know some friends I have talked to just lack that first years loss of income they would lose in between leaving "working for the man" and putting out your own shingle?

yep.  Same issues here.  One of the labs/consulting I work with started out by a male owned company, passed onto the next generation, also male.  They made the decision to sell to the females in the family so they could get Fed work and keep the company alive.  The wives own the company and manage the lab while the hubby's manage the environmental consulting side.  

 

[csb]

Maybe a C? 

I don't know that white guys are still the majority for all of engineering in America, but they definitely hold the majority of leadership positions. 

It's still been in the last few years that I know I've heard, "Yeah, but will it be a 'thing' to hire a (insert non-white-male characteristic here)?" 

My grandfather was an immigrant to America. He came from Colombia where he was a doctor and continued to be a doctor in America. My mother has some of those kid-of-an-immigrant quirks, but it's not the same at all when someone says The Immigrant Experience. I definitely don't look like I have an immigrant grandfather. 

I am frequently the only woman in the room at work, but that doesn't follow me out into my normal life. I think there's a much bigger difference to be a POC in the engineering world. In my state, Latinos are the most likely person you will see making up the diversity. We've still had issues at work where even in the last twenty years smaller towns won't serve non-white people at restaurants. 

I dunno. 

 

[snickerd3]

We are the complete equal opportunity employment package place from race to LGBTQ, but overall I'd Agree with csb on the C rating.     

 

[envirotex]

Federal contracts require a percentage of the contract to be DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprises) - and I find it odd that there really are not a lot of these firms around, we work on projects all over the US and we have a hard time filling this requirement on many jobs we have to pull from firms in other states where we would prefer local firms who know the area -

Ive even tried to talk my wife into going back to school because female owned would meet this requirement - but I wonder what is the push that gets someone to be able to make that leap? The engineering community certainly consists of individuals who have the skills to make this jump, I know some friends I have talked to just lack that first years loss of income they would lose in between leaving "working for the man" and putting out your own shingle?

Just waiting until the side-hustle can pay the rent and the insurance...but maybe before then.

 

[envirotex]

We are the complete equal opportunity employment package place from race to LGBTQ, but overall I'd Agree with csb on the C rating.     

Same.  Most of the meetings I attend and  projects that I am on are still majority Caucasian and male, but a lot of my work focuses on an industry that lags behind other sectors, for sure.

 

[Road Guy]

I work for a company that is based out of one of the flyover states, although its a huge company, most of senior management are white men - My boss was a female up until 2 weeks ago I was reorganized into the West Division - and I work for a guy out of Vegas that I have never met -  

But we are hiring literally all over the country and moving people to Denver and our office is getting more diverse than when I was hired a year ago.

My previous employer in Denver, although fairly vanilla, had a much larger female management presence.  But the vanilla part of that is just do to the demographics of Colorado I imagine.  I found it interesting that when our European, Asian, and even African "Big Wheels" [talking about the Continents] came for a visit (this was ATKINS) there wasn't a single person of color or a woman in the group. This was a group of around 20 + people and there handlers that came over to visit the US Peasants.

I have had many many clients whose POC with me was female & maybe that is more due to the governments role out of a EEO plan?  - but at the same time these women were very much on top of there game.

At my County job, we had a county of just under a million people, probably 65% Caucasian, and we had a black county manager, even though he was a serious hard ***, he was excellent - the only county manager I can think off that lasted more than 20 years (most are not able to survive the politics) - but he had no black department heads (Parks, DOT, Library, Police, etc) - he got a lot of grief from that from the community and he felt that we didn't hire enough people of color at the entry level to feed into the county system- so he had staff make a push at career fairs but we never really got much attention from minority applicants - Actually we had a hard time hiring period because at the time our hiring salary range was way less than the private sector, even during a recession we didnt get many sniffs from our jobs postings and they would take months to fill. 

I am glad to hear your opinions,  I think its healthy to have these in writing at some level..

I know I look back on my career and have actually had more female bosses than male bosses. But that doesnt really mean anything.  I watched our County DOT hire a female director (they are now on there 2nd female director) - The first one was my boss.  It was interesting watch the old guys visibly upset that they now worked for a woman, and most got drummed out or moved to other departments.  She straight up transferred 4 old guys she knew would be problems on day 1 (& those guys were worthless - even though we didnt replace their slots it was addition by subtraction.

So after reading my own post above I revise my score to a C

 

[Tiger15]

I'd give engineering as an industry a C- at best. People of color and women are significantly underrepresented in engineering and in STEM fields in general. The causes are too numerous and complex to try and get into here. But this has been recognized in the past 5 or so years, and there are many efforts to work on this. We'll probably have to wait a decade to see if these efforts are really working. 

I know all personal experiences are anecdotal in nature, but speaking for my experience. All of my workplaces have been mostly white males by a large majority. Women and minorities definitely exist but statistically speaking are very underrepresented as compared to the population. That's not necessarily the fault of the company or industry, like I said lots of causes of that. What really bothers me is that, the women and minorities who are there don't ever seem to make it into management or leadership positions. I do hold the companies and their leadership accountable for that. I don't think is blatant prejudice. I can only clearly identify one instance of blatant prejudice that I've experienced in my career, which I reported to HR. HR basically told me, (paraphrasing) "We know the guys in the field are racist; we can't do anything about that, so we focus on the office." WTF! Are you serious?! (Sorry, I'm off on a tangent, back to hiring of women and minorities) Rather it's just that people gravitate to, and feel most comfortable with, the people they most relate to and identify with. This leads to white men continuing to promote white men. It's a very subtle and hard to identify bias, but it's there. There's no individual situation where I can say this specific person was passed over due to race. But when you observe the patterns, it's actually quite clear.

And that brings me to the whole "I don't see color" thing. I find that offensive. If you don't see color then you don't see racism. If you don't see color you won't be able to see the patterns of under-representation or injustice. If you don't see color then you can't value racial diversity, which has been objectively shown to result in better and faster business outcomes. (True of all diversity, not just racial). If you don't see color then you're not working toward achieving equality for all people. Not seeing color equals ignoring race, which isn't good enough. Everyone, especially white people, need to be actively fighting against racism.
(I don't intend that as a personal attack on whoever said that. I don't know you and can't know your heart. But I don't feel like enough people understand why that thinking is problematic, so I felt it necessary to speak on it.)

 

[csb]

And that brings me to the whole "I don't see color" thing. I find that offensive. If you don't see color then you don't see racism. If you don't see color you won't be able to see the patterns of under-representation or injustice. If you don't see color then you can't value racial diversity, which has been objectively shown to result in better and faster business outcomes. (True of all diversity, not just racial). If you don't see color then you're not working toward achieving equality for all people. Not seeing color equals ignoring race, which isn't good enough. Everyone, especially white people, need to be actively fighting against racism.
(I don't intend that as a personal attack on whoever said that. I don't know you and can't know your heard. But I don't feel like enough people understand why that thinking is problematic, so I felt it necessary to speak on it.)

I completely agree with this. 

 

[JayKay PE]

First off, I agree a ton with what JP has written.  Maybe it's because I was in NY/LI, but the lack of minorities and women in an office is grating when you're one of them, especially when you saw so much diversity in the general population just walking out the door.  My first office used to 'boast' that they had an almost 50% ratio of men to women, but that was total employment.  So it included HR and accounting (which seem to be predominantly women, yet the supervisors of those departments were men), and it was a geology firm that turned to engineering, so geologists seem to be predisposed towards having a few more women.  In that office there were 15 principals.  One was a woman.  Two were men POC.  The other offices associated with this firm were even less diverse...I think I remember one other female Principal in LA, but none others off the top of my head and I worked there for 5 years.

What really bothers me is that, the women and minorities who are there don't ever seem to make it into management or leadership positions.

This.  THIS IS A HUGE THING.  It's why I left my last company, and they seemed surprised that I stood up to them.  A big thing that has happened with me, not sure if this is a woman thing or a minority in the STEM field thing, is that I am promised something when hired, like a promotion or a raise or training that would help me move up the ladder.  As the date approaches, I'll touch base with the OM or my supervisor.  My OM kept pushing it off and then when I put in my two weeks notice he asked what they as a company could have done to keep me and was super surprised when I said, "Given me the promotion you promised me 18-months ago". The...lack of support when I actually want to move up the ladder and take more responsibility is super frustrating.  I've never been included in 'development' activities unless I fight to be included, throwing extra hours and backup materials to show I'm worth it, whereas the white guy hired after me with less experience is an auto-invite.  

"We know the guys in the field are racist; we can't do anything about that, so we focus on the office."

I'm not going to even go into the amount of unsolicited **** pics I've been shown/sent by contractors or some of the **** spoken to me while I was working on sites.  It's not worth it to even fight it, because they're "field guys" and "it gets rough" and "we do a lot of work with that drilling company, don't rock the boat".

I agree with JP.  I give it more of a solid C- than a C.  There is a lot of stuff I've seen and experienced that shows there is a long road for the engineering community to get more diverse.  People shouldn't be hired because of the color of their skin or their ***, but I also think some companies need to branch out from where they're recruiting to actually see there are more people who can do the work than those who are able to come to a job fair in the middle of the day (when most people who need to work are working).

 

[Sirian]

As a female engineer (still white) .... I can say that I was lucky not to be harassed more, probably in no small part to meeting crews as part of a group rather than arriving alone to a site. I have been hit on and harassed multiple times to the point where it is something I can expect and shrug off when it happens.

To me it's a sort of an eyeroll reaction: 'Oh no, here we go again.'

Let's be real: this general experience is common for women, whether or not they are at work. Men just have a hard time respecting that I am trying to do a job here and no, I don't care how attractive you are, or that you just want to 'shoot your shot' because you only see me at work -- work is not the place for that. Wait until the end of the day after your shift! Give me an out! I cannot tell you how many times the whole 'having someone try to figure out whether I might or might not be interested' is just ... couldn't you have waited? To be honest I'm never interested in anyone that approaches me while I'm working because I find it so offensive.

The number of mildly or overtly misogynistic comments, the times when people turn a room or a meeting into a 'boys club' environment (because for them that's inclusive, that's bonding) ... the number of times my male colleagues complain about having families or about keeping a wife happy, or ask me if I have children (spoiler alert: childfree), or make comments that are "just a joke."

I have developed a potpourri of equally joking responses to all of this nonsense: "Sir, you're telling me you can operate an excavator, but a washing machine is too confusing for you?"

It's just mind-boggling.

And I love my job. Don't get me wrong. My job is the best job in the world.

I hate how those comments and awkward moments ruin my day at my awesome job and make me feel like I don't belong.

Solid C- from me for the industry. Because at least I have my awesome job, even with some crappy days. And I will put up with all the stupidity in the world to be able to do what I love.

 

[Road Guy]

I assume the dating comments are guys your age or are they the old grey haired dudes (they are the worst)

Also I agree on the “don’t see color” comments - when I was in boot camp our CO said something to the effect of “were all green in his eyes” (US military In general is probably the most diverse entity on the planet) later our 3 black drill sgt’s told us that was ******** and if we ever said that they would smoke us for a week...

But anytime I hear someone say they don’t see color I think of the green comment for some reason—-

 

[DoctorWho-PE]

I assume the dating comments are guys your age or are they the old grey haired dudes (they are the worst)

Also I agree on the “don’t see color” comments - when I was in boot camp our CO said something to the effect of “were all green in his eyes” (US military In general is probably the most diverse entity on the planet) later our 3 black drill sgt’s told us that was ******** and if we ever said that they would smoke us for a week...

But anytime I hear someone say they don’t see color I think of the green comment for some reason—-

The amount of racism I remember as a child is limited. Due to growing up in a military family I remember people being singled out more for rank of their sponsor than anything else.  But really, that is neither here nor there in this conversation.

 

[DoctorWho-PE]

I know all personal experiences are anecdotal in nature, but speaking for my experience. All of my workplaces have been mostly white males by a large majority. Women and minorities definitely exist but statistically speaking are very underrepresented as compared to the population. That's not necessarily the fault of the company or industry, like I said lots of causes of that. What really bothers me is that, the women and minorities who are there don't ever seem to make it into management or leadership positions. I do hold the companies and their leadership accountable for that. I don't think is blatant prejudice. I can only clearly identify one instance of blatant prejudice that I've experienced in my career, which I reported to HR. HR basically told me, (paraphrasing) "We know the guys in the field are racist; we can't do anything about that, so we focus on the office." WTF! Are you serious?! (Sorry, I'm off on a tangent, back to hiring of women and minorities) Rather it's just that people gravitate to, and feel most comfortable with, the people they most relate to and identify with. This leads to white men continuing to promote white men. It's a very subtle and hard to identify bias, but it's there. There's no individual situation where I can say this specific person was passed over due to race. But when you observe the patterns, it's actually quite clear.

I am fortunate that the office I work in has had strong female leadership.  My mentor, and my first full time job supervisor, is the current office director/VP and has been selected to be the next president. However, of the 6+ (I think it is actually 8 now with some recent acquisitions) offices, only one has a female OD, and as far as I am aware, she was the first female OD in the company. She will be the first female president. 125 years of company history, and we have our first female president.  

As for field people, or clients in general, there have been a handful of times that I have really felt disrespected in the field.  Typically, it is because they see me and think I am young and inexperienced, in addition to being female. 

Tangent: at my last job, when I was an architect, I had a client who was 2 hours late for a meeting, walks into the office at closing time, then berated me because my male boss was not there to assist him with his project. I pointed out that as I was the one responsible for the design of his project, I was the person he was to meet with.  Then he yelled at me because his time was valuable, and I was wasting it. Excellent dude, really.

 

[csb]

Tangent: at my last job, when I was an architect, 

Whoa, whoa, whoa. We're tolerant of a lot of things here, but we draw the line at architect. 

 

[DoctorWho-PE]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. We're tolerant of a lot of things here, but we draw the line at architect. 

I know I know I know.  I saw the error in my ways.

 

[squaretaper LIT AF PE]

We're tolerant of a lot of things here, but we draw the line at architect. 

@csb this NEEDS to be in your tagline or signature.