What grade do you give the Engineering Community for Diversity?

[Dleg]

Great thread idea and conversation.

I've been a white guy in engineering for almost 30 years now, and definitely fell into the "I don't see color" camp when I was younger. I also felt like I got myself to where I am purely on my own accord, and that everyone in America has the exact same opportunity I have had, and they only fail because they don't work at it hard enough. It's only been in the past few years that I have realized that none of this is true, and like others have said here, it has only served as an excuse for me to continue ignore my own prejudices and, especially, the plight of others and my role in ignoring the problem.

I'd give the engineering industry a C- or even a D for diversity, personally. I base this in part on simple statistics that I have observed: the nationwide, governmental organization I currently work for is amazingly diverse. I am sure this stems from years of helpful policies that have made it an accepting place for all. However, when you split out the engineers (about 400 of us), it's a totally different story. We have some diversity, but nowhere near the rest of the professions. Of those 400, I can think of only 3 that were black. I don't know where to lay the blame for that, but I am sure it is more reflective of our industry than my organization.

And honestly, it was only in the past two weeks that I started to see the problem from a different perspective. Someone I know on this very forum said something about the people rioting, that they must be insane because they keep doing the same thing (rioting) and expecting different results. And it hit me all of a sudden that WE are the ones who must be insane, because WE keep doing things the same way yet expecting things to change. Now that I am thinking in this way, the problems all look very different to me. I think that's the same situation with engineering diversity. We need to stop thinking that the profession will just become more diverse because we are good people, or don't see color, or whatever. Well, it hasn't happened yet and it isn't going to unless we do things differently.  I'm just not sure what those things are, at this time, but I am willing to approach the problem with my eyes and ears open now.

(and for what it's worth I agree with @mudpuppy that it probably has to include fixing the disparities in the education system, which basically means our entire society.)

 

[Ble_PE]

I've been thinking about this thread ever since RG started it and I've come to the same conclusion that a lot of others have. I'd love to say that we're doing great as a community, but I realize that we aren't. Like dleg just said, I grew up believing that I got myself to where I am based on my own merits and that everyone else had the same opportunities that I had if they would only use them. Lately I've realized just how wrong I was. 

I've been thinking back over my career and there has really not been much diversity at all amongst my fellow engineers. In my first two jobs out of school I didn't work with any minorities at all and only 3 female engineers out of about 20. My next job also didn't have much diversity. I think I remember 1 or 2 black engineers and a few more female engineers, but that's about it. I have worked with several Indian and Asian engineers, even some in management positions, but my current job is the first place I've been that has had a black engineer as a manager. There are quite a few female engineers at my current company, as well as several minorities, but again, blacks are very under-represented. I have no idea what the solution to this is other than what @mudpuppy and @Dleg mentioned in regards to our education system. But if I had to give a score, it would probably be a C-.

 

[leggo PE]

I honestly wouldn't give the engineering industry even a C-.

If I'm going by "school grades", a "C" is considered adequate. A "B" is above average. And an "A" is the top. So by that metric, I'd give the engineering industry (based on my experience and general understanding) a D-. I cannot fathom how the industry is anywhere NEAR "acceptable" or "adequate" in terms of racial diversity. What even is "acceptable"? Is it even a 50% White / 50% BIPOC mix? I don't know. This has entirely everything to do with the American white supremacist society that I (and all of us) live in, and that I, personally, have benefited from, as a cis white woman.

I have definitely experienced sexism, that's for sure. I've seen very little female leadership in my 8 years in this industry. I can think of maybe two companies in the area I'm in that are run by women. That's not a lot, for where I live.

Currently, I think I work in a relatively diverse office in a pretty NOT diverse company. Of the 40 people in our office, we are close to 50/50 in terms of racial diversity (white and BIPOC). There is only one Black person in my office, and much of the diversity comes from Asian (Chinese and Indian, primarily) or Asian-American people, whom there are a lot of in the SF Bay Area; we also have three Mexican and Mexican-American engineers, who are all young and a few years out of college. There are seven women in my office, two of which are admin, two of which are on our drafting team, one who is new out of college, one who is in upper-management managing her own three person team, and me (and mid-level, not management). Our office is led by the two older white men who founded it.

I fully understand that my experience is completely influenced by where I have worked, which has nearly entirely been in very white areas of either the city I was living in, or the general region I was living in. But again, this speaks to the broader racial injustices that this entire country has been built on since its very beginning.

There will be no fixing the diversity issue in the engineering industry until broader changes are made in the way society is run, the way laws are written, the urban planning is designed, reparations are paid, etc.

 

[mudpuppy]

What even is "acceptable"? Is it even a 50% White / 50% BIPOC mix? I don't know.

I don't have a lot of answers on this stuff, but this question at least has numbers involved.  In the dealings I've had with recruiting, our HR says the affirmative action targets want the employee population to mirror the general population.  Which sounds fair at least on the surface.  When we get into recruiting, though, we find engineering students don't make up the same percentages as the general population, so it becomes much more difficult to achieve those targets.

I don't have the specific numbers for our company, but in general the US population is about 60% white alone, 18% hispanic, 13% black, 6% asian, which obviously has huge regional variations.

 

[Road Guy]

I dont know the numbers, but the engineering world (Transportation) in Atlanta was much more diverse than Denver.  Many owners of medium and smaller firms were minorities, leadership roles in larger engineering firms tend to have a more diverse makeup (other than white women). 

I recall an event the City of Atlanta held to introduce DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprise)  firms to the established (large and medium sized) engineering firms for teaming opportunities, and the City of Atlanta  staff that hosted the event was fairly irritated that so many (white) female owned firms showed up.  Under the Federal rule they are considered a DBE for federal projects, but the COA would judge your proposals based on if your were meeting or exceeding the DBE requirements based on who your DBE partners were. 

I dont have any experiences working for the boutique sized firms that are often owned by 1-3 individuals, but in the Civil / Transportation world, the general rule of thumb is that "winning work" pays better and leads to more opportunities than "doing work" -I've often advised many younger people that I have mentored over the years that if they want that corner office and the larger responsibility / salary they need to do good work, but also to get out on your own and make some contacts,  its very strange how a long commitment to (the right) professional organization can pay dividends down the road - Actually in Denver the largest Professional Organization is WTS.

 

[leggo PE]

San Francisco has a similar regulation where (I'm sure I'm loosely paraphrasing) construction projects of a certain size must include, for a pre-determined portion of the work, what is called here "Minority Owned Businesses" (which must have at least 51% minority ownership) and local businesses. I guess they also have wording for "Women-Owned Businesses" and "Small Business Enterprises". The company I used to work for was a Minority Owned Business and, I'm guessing, also a Small Business Enterprise.

I'd also also like to point out that most of the locations BIPOC live in this country is very intertwined with and often defined by the history of race and racial injustice in this country. This has happened with Native American populations, Black people, Japanese immigrants, and simply immigrants of all types. This inherently compounds the issue of diversity in the engineering industry, and truly, in all industries and in society country-wide.

Honestly, I'm very much learning about all of this right now, in a broader context. To echo and expand on what others have said, I have lived the vast majority of my life not even realizing I have been complicit in a white supremacist society that continuously beats down BIPOC and builds up white people. I have a long road of personal learning and outward action ahead of me.

 

[csb]

I'm humored that there's a MOB hiring requirement. 

I was able to hear a talk a couple years ago that took issue with the word minority. He gave an example that Swedish-Americans make up a very small portion of the population, but that's not who we're talking about when he say minority. What it really means is non-white. The word itself has some negative connotations. For instance, the minority in Congress is the party that didn't win as many seats. It's the losing party. So when we say minority, it's like saying, "Yeah, not the winners." http://bellevillemessenger.org/2018/04/bishop-urges-us-to-listen-learn-think-pray-act-in-deans-lecture-on-race-law-and-society/

(bracing for "It's just a word!" arguments)

 

[Road Guy]

I always thought the DBE phrase was strange too to be honest, & I imagine it took several weeks for someone to come up with the term (Disadvantaged Business Enterprise) - ?/

 

[Audi Driver P.E.]

Focus on diversity rather than meritocracy is error, IMO. I'm looking for the best skilled and most capable and I couldn't care less whether they be blue, 20 ft tall, or have feathers.

 

[Tiger15]

Focus on diversity rather than meritocracy is error, IMO. I'm looking for the best skilled and most capable and I couldn't care less whether they be blue, 20 ft tall, or have feathers.

Sure, in a perfect world I would completely agree with that. The problems is that the traditional metrics of measuring who is most capable have bias and prejudice baked into them. Grades, previous work experience, recommendations, salary history, etc... all of those things provide an inherent advantage for incumbent and the people in the majority. In America that's white men. Minorities and women are inherently disadvantaged because there were biases in school, then there were biases when applying for job, then there were biases in who provides recommendations for whom, and the wage gaps are well documented.

My point is not to throw all that stuff away. It's still important. But other factors need to be considered. If you're basing your meritocracy only on the traditional metrics then you're potentially missing the best candidates and instead selecting the privilege candidates.

EDIT: Also regarding diversity. It's been proven that diverse groups consistently produce better solutions than homogeneous groups. There is definite value in having a wide variety of perspectives.

 

[Dleg]

 Like I have said, I previously thought like Audi driver, but I have come to realize how superficial that attitude is, and how it completely misses the real problem, which is the difficulty non-white people have in even making it to that point. 

 

[Audi Driver P.E.]

Sure, in a perfect world I would completely agree with that. The problems is that the traditional metrics of measuring who is most capable have bias and prejudice baked into them. Grades, previous work experience, recommendations, salary history, etc... all of those things provide an inherent advantage for incumbent and the people in the majority. In America that's white men. Minorities and women are inherently disadvantaged because there were biases in school, then there were biases when applying for job, then there were biases in who provides recommendations for whom, and the wage gaps are well documented.

My point is not to throw all that stuff away. It's still important. But other factors need to be considered. If you're basing your meritocracy only on the traditional metrics then you're potentially missing the best candidates and instead selecting the privilege candidates.

I don't think you understand an engineering meritocracy. It's where the project is done on time, within or under budget, and meets or exceeds the specifications. Those are the traditional metrics and they give fuck all about what color skin a person has or if they choose to marry a puppy. Your points about how, when, or where an individual (or duality, depending on how folks choose to identify) gains their education or qualifications aren't engineering metrics that need adjustment. If (and there probably are) biases in education exist, that's an education problem, not an engineering meritocracy one.

 

[Audi Driver P.E.]

I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that a white male like myself was at a disadvantage going into engineering school. There was no "white male" or "white" or "male" scholarship I could apply for. The entrance review committee consisted of several non-white foreign nationals. Once I got in,  a person could make an argument I was still at a disadvantage. A healthy portion of the the professors I had teaching my engineering courses had accents that were difficult to understand. At least half where neither white or were female and there were exactly zero "white male" study groups I could join.

If there was one advantage I had, it was being a native English speaker whose text books were written in English (though at least one was written in English by my prof whose first language was not English).

All that said, I'm not trying to convey any "poor me" attitude about it. Just wondering how in 2020 there's still strong evidence of white male bias in education?

 

[Dleg]

Edit: I posted a snarky GIF, but decided to delete it since everyone else in this thread have responded in a more mature manner. So far. 

But I will say that I do not agree with the viewpoint of Audi driver. I used to believe some of that stuff, but now I do not, at all. In the organizations that I have been a part of where diversity is encouraged (or enforced), I have only seen it result in stronger teams - yes I do believe stronger than would have been accomplished on the basis of meritocracy, had we just picked all of the people based on resumes.  

Some of the hardest working and most driven people I have met have come from very modest to even poor backgrounds, and often can't even get their foot in the door because of that. And some of the most mediocre people I have worked with have graduated from the best schools and with the highest GPAs, had the best looking resumes, etc. The concept of a "meritocracy" is deeply flawed. 

 

[JayKay PE]

I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that a white male like myself was at a disadvantage going into engineering school. There was no "white male" or "white" or "male" scholarship I could apply for. The entrance review committee consisted of several non-white foreign nationals. Once I got in,  a person could make an argument I was still at a disadvantage. A healthy portion of the the professors I had teaching my engineering courses had accents that were difficult to understand. At least half where neither white or were female and there were exactly zero "white male" study groups I could join.

See.  If the rl was like college/academia, then a majority of the engineering supervisor positions would be POC or women, and yet, they're not. 

So there may have been a 'disadvantage' for you going through college, but that's because you're the norm.  The scholarships are there for those who wouldn't have even thought of going to college, much less going to engineering.  There are so many people I know who were amazing in my high school that just...haven't gone anywhere due to limitations, accidentally getting pregnant in high school, being shot and killed, etc. etc.  If they had the 'base' of being a white male, maybe none of that would have happened and they would have thought about going through higher education, but when you have bills that need to be paid now or else your electricity will be shut off, it tends to make putting everything on hold for a four (maybe 5) year degree less appetizing. 

 

[JayKay PE]

Edit: I posted a snarky GIF, but decided to delete it since everyone else in this thread have responded in a more mature manner. So far. 

Um.  I demand this snarky gif.  Sometimes when things get too serious on EB I get confused.

 

[JayKay PE]

Trrrrrrrrrrriple post to avoid the double post banhammer

 

[Audi Driver P.E.]

Edit: I posted a snarky GIF, but decided to delete it since everyone else in this thread have responded in a more mature manner. So far. 

But I will say that I do not agree with the viewpoint of Audi driver. I used to believe some of that stuff, but now I do not, at all. In the organizations that I have been a part of where diversity is encouraged (or enforced), I have only seen it result in stronger teams - yes I do believe stronger than would have been accomplished on the basis of meritocracy, had we just picked all of the people based on resumes.  

Some of the hardest working and most driven people I have met have come from very modest to even poor backgrounds, and often can't even get their foot in the door because of that. And some of the most mediocre people I have worked with have graduated from the best schools and with the highest GPAs, had the best looking resumes, etc. The concept of a "meritocracy" is deeply flawed. 

There are definitely advantages to having varied viewpoints and differing inputs, so don't mistake what I am saying for an argument for a team to be of all one makeup of race/color/gender/footwear -- it's how unique solutions to problems are created and developed. That said, it can have a negative influence as well, so balance it important (something not borne out absent a meritocracy). If everyone disagrees on a path forward or they can't come together to work as a team, those things are destructive to the outcome in a meritocracy, but if the goal is diversity no product gets delivered and you can say "yea diversity" and pat yourselves on the back as everyone walks out the door with their pink slip trophy.

 

[csb]

I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that a white male like myself was at a disadvantage going into engineering school. There was no "white male" or "white" or "male" scholarship I could apply for. 

Is the disadvantage is that no one batted an eye that you wanted to attend college and get a technical degree? 

When there isn't a special group for you, it's because your group has always had the upper hand. 

Yesterday I was on a video call with 51 people and four of us were women. The main people driving the conversation were white males. When we're in person, they dominate the conversation. I have frequently experienced in that group those same men discounting my expertise and calling me sweetie and asking me where to find the snacks. This is a national committee of engineers. 

So forgive me if I'm not buying your disadvantage. 

 

[leggo PE]

I'm humored that there's a MOB hiring requirement. 

I was able to hear a talk a couple years ago that took issue with the word minority. He gave an example that Swedish-Americans make up a very small portion of the population, but that's not who we're talking about when he say minority. What it really means is non-white. The word itself has some negative connotations. For instance, the minority in Congress is the party that didn't win as many seats. It's the losing party. So when we say minority, it's like saying, "Yeah, not the winners." http://bellevillemessenger.org/2018/04/bishop-urges-us-to-listen-learn-think-pray-act-in-deans-lecture-on-race-law-and-society/

(bracing for "It's just a word!" arguments)

I always thought the DBE phrase was strange too to be honest, & I imagine it took several weeks for someone to come up with the term (Disadvantaged Business Enterprise) - ?/

A friend of mine who I've been having racial conversations with mentioned the word "marginalized" instead of "minority". I thought it made a lot of sense. I mean, heck, a group may not actually be the minority in a given scenario, but that doesn't mean they aren't marginalized.