Trying to get boss to allow the same study opportunities as coworker

[WickedYetCivil]

I have an ongoing battle with my boss to allow me the same opportunities for PE studying as my one coworker did when they took the test a few years back. I have been struggling to pass the PE and going on attempt number four for April 2020. 

A little background info this coworker got roughly 8 weeks of one day off a week to study from home. All expenses were covered from the state board fee, the NCEES fee, PE class fee, the codes required but not the person's hotel room or money for travel. The coworker was also studying at work at times and there were conversations asking if it was ok to give another job to this person or if they needed some extra time to study. The biggest thing was that the coworker was working for a different plant and basically worked remote from my plant because its closer to their home. Coworker’s boss at the time was at the same level as my boss and they both report to the head of engineering who is located in my office.

So skip to when I can first sit for the PE. I told my boss roughly a year before taking it so he knew it was coming. Well I straight up ask for what the other coworker got and I a VERY clear NO!!!! Looking back at the first attempt I got SoPE paid for, 1-2 references bought for me and the NCEES fee. I had no vacation due to getting married & taking a honeymoon so I studied at lunch, at night and on the weekends. I even remember waiting for one of my bosses to buy references and two weeks before the exam I freaked and just out right paid for them which didn't give me enough time to learn them either. I took this attempt as a learning experience. 

Second attempt I retook SoPE, paid for EET depth, took about 5 days of vacation over 5 weeks, probably also used a sick day as "mental health day" all in hope to pass. I was maybe given a total of 12 hours at work to "study" but if work came in I had to stop. Boss also caved and gave me 1 work from home day which I maybe got 4 hrs of studying in and then 2 days of "work from home" tomorrow because we were slow. I still felt like I was struggling to get in all the lectures and problems worked for the classes. I basically had no life from Jan-April this second time due to studying 8am-8pm on the weekends both days and came home from work and studied another 2 hrs each night. I also had my boss piling very large and complex projects on my desk even tho we were slow and some people in my department had time to watch youtube videos because we didn't have enough work to go around.

Third attempt I decided that I wasn't going to take anymore classes just work problems and practice tests and learn my references. I asked to work 7:30am, take a 30 min lunch, and leave at 4pm. I also took about another 5 days of vacation over 4-5 weeks along with having no life and studying on the weekends for 4 months. This helped but boss had so much on my desk I was going home so drained that my 3 hrs of studying sometimes was only roughly 2 hrs. 

Heading into attempt 4 and have no clue what to do. I did reach out to HR for advice (have actually gone to my HR rep about my boss before over not being treated equal to my coworkers), and waiting to hear back. I personally don't want to drain more vacation over this since I had a coworker who was able to not take vacation and also use a week of vacation to take a vacation before the PE. 

I honestly don't have the best relationship with my boss but I sure have tried. He is a passive aggressive type and has a temper. Anytime I bring up an idea about studying I get shot down. It’s almost like it has to be his idea or it won't happen. I also know that I am lucky on the fact that my company has covered a good amount of the PE expenses. I'm just confused why they will cover so much and not try to give a reasonable amount of study time especially when we are slow. They also encourage engineers to get the PE as well.

WOW this post got way longer than expected but hopefully someone has some advice for me! 

 

[john813_PE]

Hmm, tough one. 

If your boss doesn't want to offer you more time off I'm not sure what you could do without making your professional relationship worse. 

Was there more down time a few years back when your coworker took it?

Is your company desperate for you to get your P.E. or is it something that would be nice, but not needed from their side?

 

[Ramnares P.E.]

Couple items:

1. Regarding test materials and prep courses, the policy for reimbursement should be clearly defined in your company's policy for tuition reimbursement.  If not, you should have this in writing before undertaking any costs.  Most places I've worked for you paid all costs up front and only got reimbursed if you passed the exam.

2. There is no obligation from a company or managers to allow you time off to study or allow you to study at work.  The vast majority of board members dedicated personal time to study and vacation time if required to travel to the test site.  I understand your frustration with how it was managed for a co-worker but that was cleared through his/her manager, not yours.

3. From your second attempt description it sounds like your boss has been fairly flexible with your schedule and giving you time to study.  Again, your company is under no obligation to give you time at work or less work so that you can study for an exam.  Most of us on the board and myself personally dedicated personal time outside of work to study.  Typically I studied from 7-10PM every weeknight and then 8AM-4PM with short breaks as needed during the weekend for three months.  PE prep can be very time extensive but it's on your personal time.

That ^ may not be what you wanted to hear but the PE is a personal goal and its not to your company's benefit as you'll expect a raise when you pass the exam.  It is for your personal and your professional betterment that you're taking the exam and your company and boss aren't obligated to help you pass.

 

[WickedYetCivil]

Hmm, tough one. 

If your boss doesn't want to offer you more time off I'm not sure what you could do without making your professional relationship worse. 

Was there more down time a few years back when your coworker took it?

Is your company desperate for you to get your P.E. or is it something that would be nice, but not needed from their side?

We were slammed when my coworker took it. I was even picking up extra work at coworkers plant to help out.

Currently they are not desperate but there are not many PEs in the office and once some of the older PEs retire they would benefit from me getting my PE. They also are needing PEs to get licensed in more states as well.

 

[WickedYetCivil]

Couple items:

1. Regarding test materials and prep courses, the policy for reimbursement should be clearly defined in your company's policy for tuition reimbursement.  If not, you should have this in writing before undertaking any costs.  Most places I've worked for you paid all costs up front and only got reimbursed if you passed the exam.

2. There is no obligation from a company or managers to allow you time off to study or allow you to study at work.  The vast majority of board members dedicated personal time to study and vacation time if required to travel to the test site.  I understand your frustration with how it was managed for a co-worker but that was cleared through his/her manager, not yours.

3. From your second attempt description it sounds like your boss has been fairly flexible with your schedule and giving you time to study.  Again, your company is under no obligation to give you time at work or less work so that you can study for an exam.  Most of us on the board and myself personally dedicated personal time outside of work to study.  Typically I studied from 7-10PM every weeknight and then 8AM-4PM with short breaks as needed during the weekend for three months.  PE prep can be very time extensive but it's on your personal time.

That ^ may not be what you wanted to hear but the PE is a personal goal and its not to your company's benefit as you'll expect a raise when you pass the exam.  It is for your personal and your professional betterment that you're taking the exam and your company and boss aren't obligated to help you pass.

Comments on (1)- policy wasn’t clear and Head of engineering ( my boss’s boss) said he would cover the class and references like they did for my coworker. But he wanted to see if other plants had the references before buying them. I did ask after my first attempt about how they wanted to handle the class and they just reimbursed me but any references that head of engineering didn’t find I ended up buying myself. I learned my lesson there for sure.

Comments on (2) - coworker’s boss is a Chef Engineer who got approval from the Head of engineering for my coworker’s study opportunities. My boss is chef engineer of just a different plant and had to ask the same guy for me and I got a no in person from both of them after they talked about it. I know when my boss and his boss took the PE they studied at work. This is very common in this company to allow an engineer some extra time to focus on the PE. I was just hoping to be treated equally that’s all. 
 

Comments on (3)- he did allow me some time here but gosh it was random and I was bringing in all my structural depth books to work daily just hoping to get more than my lunch to study. 
 

Yes I understand that my company didn’t have to give me anything more than the written approval and signature to sit for the PE. I am just beyond confused why I am being treated so differently than others before me. 

 

[StandardPractice]

Sounds like you received a good amount of opportunity both time and financial at least compared to the standard. Bits of your story seem to be self defeating e.g. you waited until two weeks to get your references bought? That's your responsibility whether or not it's being funded by your firm. You know the exam schedule and what you need to get done. You should have told them to buy the references sooner or bought them on your own dime to be reimbursed later. It's your PE license...not the company's license. 

Your issue appears to be your study method and not the time. If this is your 4th time taking the exam, and you truly put in the hours you stated on the previous 3 attempts, then you shouldn't need as much time to study. You should be studying your weak areas and reinforcing your strengths through short practice problems. You can pass I'm sure. And if you feel disresptected by your boss...get your PE, find a higher paying job hopefully in a company that is better suited for you and quit. Life's too short to waste time complaining *if* there are options available for you to get out of your predicament. 

 

[Road Guy]

So this doesn't sound like a very consistent plan from your company but if it were me I would just focus on the exam and your preparation and really try and not worry about what someone else got when they studied. It seems like that is adding in some unnecessary stress, and this exam is already stressful enough.

If they paid for a review course and some references that's 1000% more than I got (back in the olden times of 2005) - but I would seriously just maybe ask for a 40 hour schedule that will best give you the ability to study on your time and then once you pass you can move on to another job without owing anyone anything.

 

[MOULVV]

I passed PE structural exam in Oct 2019 luckily. I was assigned to a design build project since May and the whole team (~5 people) have been working over 50 hours ever since till Dec. I told my PM and my supervisor that I will be taking PE in Oct in Texas (I work in NY but due to immigration status I can't get it in NY). And they all forgot that my PE thing until 1 week before PE exam. I started to study in June, e.g. on every Sat and Sun. but I thought I would forget all about it when it comes to Oct so I stopped. Then I started again in August. I worked around 8 PM everyday and took EET online classes to 12 AM. I had to work also during weekends. I also bought a lot of practice books from Amazon but it turned out I had no time to finish them all. During the exam week, I told my PM that I really need to squeeze sometime to study so I worked from home and I need to take the flight to Texas on Thursday and the exam is on Friday. But until Wednesday of that week, they still gave me assignments and I had to finish them because the project I was working on was one of the biggest projects in my office. And my company doesn't expense any cost, only a $3000 bonus (and it needs to be taxed) when you pass.

So based on your situation, time isn't a matter for passing the exam, you need to focus on your weak areas and try to do as many practice problems as you could.

Best of luck on your 4th attempt!

 

[WickedYetCivil]

Sounds like you received a good amount of opportunity both time and financial at least compared to the standard. Bits of your story seem to be self defeating e.g. you waited until two weeks to get your references bought? That's your responsibility whether or not it's being funded by your firm. You know the exam schedule and what you need to get done. You should have told them to buy the references sooner or bought them on your own dime to be reimbursed later. It's your PE license...not the company's license. 

Your issue appears to be your study method and not the time. If this is your 4th time taking the exam, and you truly put in the hours you stated on the previous 3 attempts, then you shouldn't need as much time to study. You should be studying your weak areas and reinforcing your strengths through short practice problems. You can pass I'm sure. And if you feel disresptected by your boss...get your PE, find a higher paying job hopefully in a company that is better suited for you and quit. Life's too short to waste time complaining *if* there are options available for you to get out of your predicament. 

To clear up the references, I had some available to me when I first started but codes I don’t use at work had to be bought. Which meant being cleared by the big boss and that took forever. I would have loved to pass my first time but I have come to accept that it was a learning experience that I learned from greatly. 
 

I have switched up my study habits and I’m currently working on my weaknesses to hopefully get me to a pass this round. One of my biggest issues is the night before and just sleeping. 
 

That is the goal right now, get my PE and if things don’t turn around I have the option to leave!

 

[WickedYetCivil]

So this doesn't sound like a very consistent plan from your company but if it were me I would just focus on the exam and your preparation and really try and not worry about what someone else got when they studied. It seems like that is adding in some unnecessary stress, and this exam is already stressful enough.

If they paid for a review course and some references that's 1000% more than I got (back in the olden times of 2005) - but I would seriously just maybe ask for a 40 hour schedule that will best give you the ability to study on your time and then once you pass you can move on to another job without owing anyone anything.

Thanks and yes this test is very stressful. I even asked my boss why isn’t there a policy for engineers going for their PE and he had no answer for me. 
 

Yeah that’s what I asked for last time. You do have a point about not owing anyone anything. Maybe it’s the way to go this round too.

 

[P-E]

Thanks and yes this test is very stressful. I even asked my boss why isn’t there a policy for engineers going for their PE and he had no answer for me. 
 

Yeah that’s what I asked for last time. You do have a point about not owing anyone anything. Maybe it’s the way to go this round too.

Your co worker was lucky.   I don’t know too many that are given time during the work day to study.   I studied for 5 months on the train in, nearly every evening until 11 and all weekend with a 4 yr old at home.    Like RG said, get it done and move on.    Good luck!

 

[Tiger15]

Yeah. To me the issue here is that your company doesn't have a clear policy on how to handle engineering pursuing their PE, and as such, everything is subjective and case-by-case. I definitely get the frustration, especially when other we allowed more than you.

Is it just this one issue? Or does your company have that same problem in other areas?

For the record, I think the accommodations you received were reasonable. You got both financial reimbursement and some study time, which is way more than some people get. But yeah, why the inconsistencies. That's definitely frustrating. I don't know what to tell you, except good luck.

For whatever it's worth, my company has a very clear and consistent policy. (This is what I got.)

• Requires approval from your manager.
  
• The exam fee is reimbursed.
  
• All preparation cost are reimbursed up to $1500 (includes courses, book, supplies, other misc fees, etc)
  
• Taking the exam on exam day is on company time (no vacation required)
  
• All studying must be on your own time.
  
• You'll be reimbursed pass or fail, but you can only use this policy once.
  
• Ongoing: renewal fees and costs of continuing education can be expensed to the company. 
  

 

[Stardust]

Timing is important and that ship has sailed. I don't think your boss owes you anything as most engineers that took this test likely still worked a full 40 hours week, including me, and having to study outside of work. Focusing too much on your co workers is not helping you. I wouldn't waste any more energy fighting this. Keep your head down and study hard is my advice. Sorry if my words sound harsh, just being straight up. Good luck!

 

[Mo84]

Your situation was much better than mine. My firm doesn't pay anything - no references no classes. I borrowed a morning class binder from a coworker and studied on my own. But I will say this, I went for WRE depth instead of Structural even though I specialize in structural. I kept it realistic and avoided all the study time needed for the structural depth.

Advice: Do not spend time wasting your energy looking at other peoples lives, It would only frustrate you and hold you back. Be positive and focus on your goal and have a clear study plan. Constantly complaining would eventually reflect a bad impression ( if it hasn't already ) and will have a negative impact on any future promotion opportunities. I apologize if I sounded a little rough here, but I'm only saying this for your own benefit.  Good luck

 

[Michael Scott PE]

You should be glad that your employer gave any time at all, regardless of which attempt, to study during working hours.  I've never heard of an employer giving time during working hours for someone to study for the PE exam, and I know quite a few PE's.  2019 was my busiest year at work so far in my career and I spent 50+ hours at work a week.  Zero time during the day to study.  On top of that we had our 1st child in August.  I took the exam in October for the 4th time, and passed, with all of that on my plate and the only time I had for studying was after work until I went to bed.  

Maybe I missed it but how many attempts did it take your coworker?  If they passed on the 1st try, or even the 2nd, then maybe your employer has actually given you the same, or close to the same, amount of time/support that your coworker received considering you're on your 4th attempt now.  It's possible that it has added up and reached a limit.

I think revisiting your study schedule and restructuring how you study for the exam is what you need to be focusing on, not trying to obtain more time during the day, at work, during working hours which you are paid for, to study for the exam.  If your employer offered you 1 hour a day unpaid would you take it?  They would probably agree to that.

 

[WickedYetCivil]

Yeah. To me the issue here is that your company doesn't have a clear policy on how to handle engineering pursuing their PE, and as such, everything is subjective and case-by-case. I definitely get the frustration, especially when other we allowed more than you.

Is it just this one issue? Or does your company have that same problem in other areas?

For the record, I don't think the accommodations you received were not unreasonable. You got both financial reimbursement and some study time, which is way more than some people get. But yeah, why the inconsistencies. That's definitely frustrating. I don't know what to tell you, except good luck.

For whatever it's worth, my company has a very clear and consistent policy. (This is what I got.)

• Requires approval from your manager.
  
• The exam fee is reimbursed.
  
• All preparation cost are reimbursed up to $1500 (includes courses, book, supplies, other misc fees, etc)
  
• Taking the exam on exam day is on company time (no vacation required)
  
• All studying must be on your own time.
  
• You'll be reimbursed pass or fail, but you can only use this policy once.
  
• Ongoing: renewal fees and costs of continuing education can be expensed to the company. 
  

I agree with you that having a policy in place would allow fair opportunities throughout the company. Thank you for sharing your company’s policy. If I asked my boss about the PE exam and he provided me the above information I would have taken some time to see how I could fit this into my schedule and go from there. 
 

I don’t work in a big city, actually a more rural area. It seems that there is a “good boy” system that is slowly being pushed out but it’s not gone yet. When I was told I wouldn’t be given the same opportunities as my coworker I did bring up that maybe there needs to be a policy set in place to avoid this issue in the future but nothing came of it.

And yeah I am thankful that a class was covered and some of my materials. I haven’t asked for anymore expenses to be covered since the first time I took it. I guess a part of me is having trouble brushing off the frustration of being treated differently than the person sitting three feet from me, but that’s life sometimes! 

 

[WickedYetCivil]

I passed PE structural exam in Oct 2019 luckily. I was assigned to a design build project since May and the whole team (~5 people) have been working over 50 hours ever since till Dec. I told my PM and my supervisor that I will be taking PE in Oct in Texas (I work in NY but due to immigration status I can't get it in NY). And they all forgot that my PE thing until 1 week before PE exam. I started to study in June, e.g. on every Sat and Sun. but I thought I would forget all about it when it comes to Oct so I stopped. Then I started again in August. I worked around 8 PM everyday and took EET online classes to 12 AM. I had to work also during weekends. I also bought a lot of practice books from Amazon but it turned out I had no time to finish them all. During the exam week, I told my PM that I really need to squeeze sometime to study so I worked from home and I need to take the flight to Texas on Thursday and the exam is on Friday. But until Wednesday of that week, they still gave me assignments and I had to finish them because the project I was working on was one of the biggest projects in my office. And my company doesn't expense any cost, only a $3000 bonus (and it needs to be taxed) when you pass.

So based on your situation, time isn't a matter for passing the exam, you need to focus on your weak areas and try to do as many practice problems as you could.

Best of luck on your 4th attempt!

Hey that’s awesome!

I’m curious, how much of the afternoon material do you use daily?

I mostly deal with loading and steel all day. I had classes in school for steel, concrete and foundations. Wood, masonry, AASHTO and the rest I have been learning since so started to study for the PE. 

 

[WickedYetCivil]

You should be glad that your employer gave any time at all, regardless of which attempt, to study during working hours.  I've never heard of an employer giving time during working hours for someone to study for the PE exam, and I know quite a few PE's.  2019 was my busiest year at work so far in my career and I spent 50+ hours at work a week.  Zero time during the day to study.  On top of that we had our 1st child in August.  I took the exam in October for the 4th time, and passed, with all of that on my plate and the only time I had for studying was after work until I went to bed.  

Maybe I missed it but how many attempts did it take your coworker?  If they passed on the 1st try, or even the 2nd, then maybe your employer has actually given you the same, or close to the same, amount of time/support that your coworker received considering you're on your 4th attempt now.  It's possible that it has added up and reached a limit.

I think revisiting your study schedule and restructuring how you study for the exam is what you need to be focusing on, not trying to obtain more time during the day, at work, during working hours which you are paid for, to study for the exam.  If your employer offered you 1 hour a day unpaid would you take it?  They would probably agree to that.

I am happy that work has tried to give me some time to study and yes I understand this is not a common practice. Also that’s great that you passed with all of that on your plate! Keep hearing people pass after the 4th time and that’s why I haven’t given up yet.
 

The coworker passed first try but was given ideal study opportunities. I felt like the past two times I took it I was very close to passing. The second attempt I got the most study time but also had mountains of work on my desk compared to the work load my coworkers had. The third time I studied completely outside of work hours but was allowed to come in early but still work 40 hrs. What really annoyed me was that I planned vacation days in advance and was asked if I could still come into work since we were busy and I was “just studying”. 
 

I have been taking a different approach this time and hopefully can finally pass this thing! Also pretty sure HR wouldn’t be happy to have to make daily adjustments to a salary workers pay over the next 8 weeks lol.