Recession?

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Agreed on all points. Huge pet peeve of mine. We bought a starter house that's not fancy or in a rich suburb - because we couldn't afford our dream home in our mid-20s. We got a house that we could comfortably afford. We have so many friends and relatives our age who are in debt up to their eyeballs. People with comparable income to us spent $100-150K+ more on a mortgage, often for a smaller/older house than ours (all to live in a more affluent area). I have no idea how they afford it.

Student loan debt is a huge problem. Mr. Bug worked his way through college part-time (he's on his last class now) and I used a combination of scholarships and a small federal student loan to finance my undergrad. I chose to work for a company with good educational benefits, and they paid for grad school. We are the exception among people we know, though. I have a coworker who's 28 and still lives at home with his parents, because he has $120K in student loans to pay off (he very stupidly just bought a $30K SUV because he was "bored" with his old car). Mr. Bug's sister just HAD to go to a very expensive grad school, and a few years later is upset that she can't be a stay-at-home mom, solely because of her pile of student loan debt.

We have two paid-for cars...almost everyone we know has at least one car loan, usually two. And these people aren't buying a 2 or 3 year old used car, they buy new and loaded with options. Financed for 6 or 7 years, too, and when they get tired with the car after a few years they trade in and just go more upside-down on the next loan! I don't mind one small-ish car loan at a time, but two would just suck.

We're weird in that we save up to pay in cash for home improvements, vacations, and luxury items. Everyone else uses home equity lines or credit cards (surfing the balance for lower interest rates) to pay for what they want. It's like it's a novel concept to only buy what you can afford.

Almost no one has significant savings. Mr. Bug and I are working on saving up enough to cover all expenses for 4-6 months and again, it's like we're weird. These are educated young couples and families with six-figure incomes, yet they still live paycheck to paycheck. Growing up, my parents were laid off or downsized often enough that I know to NEVER trust in job stability or security.

I'm worried about the economy. Mr. Bug and I desperately want to start our family, but daycare's expensive. Private school's expensive. Food's expensive. College savings is expensive. Kids in general are expensive. We do plan to try for a baby in the next year or so, but we've held off longer than we originally wanted to - primarily due to financial worries. We want a nice fat emergency fund in the bank and to be at a good level of savings before taking on the financial pressures of children.
I'm somewhat in the same boat as you are. We've got maybe 6-7 months of cash for a "rainy day fund" but everyone I know thinks that Mrs kevo and I are crazy for doing this. The only debt we have are my school loans and our home loan.

Mrs kevo is going to grad school right now but she's paying for it herself with cash. The only way we can do this is if she would work during the day and take night classes. So, we're doing that.

The only crazy thing I see with the economy is housing. It takes a lot longer to sell a house in my area. A typical starter home costs $160,000 around here. As for work, my company is super busy and we are looking to hire 1 or 2 more engineers. Business doesn't seem to want to slow down. :screwloose:

 
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I'm worried about the economy. Mr. Bug and I desperately want to start our family, but daycare's expensive. Private school's expensive. Food's expensive. College savings is expensive. Kids in general are expensive. We do plan to try for a baby in the next year or so, but we've held off longer than we originally wanted to - primarily due to financial worries. We want a nice fat emergency fund in the bank and to be at a good level of savings before taking on the financial pressures of children.
Same here. We want a nest egg and the debt (mortgage and student loan) to a point we can handle it only on the hubbys paycheck so I can be a stay at home mom for 6 to 12 monthes. It took the detailed explaination of this to family to stop the when are you having kids...everyone else has started (there were like 5 weddings in the family all within a years time, we are the only couple sans baby right now)

 
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^- reminds me of the idiocracy movie, everyone who shouldnt be having kids having more than they can afford, and the ones who can afford them are waiting for the best time.

But for most of us "midde class" folks, there really isnt a special formula to have to save enough to have kids, those little buggers eat up a lot of income thats for sure, not as bad as you may think though....

 
As Error_matrix can attest, things here in MI are not good. The state has been in decline for the past several years. Since June 2001, we've lost 260,000 jobs; approximately 4.4% of the total job pool. Unemployement is currently 7.2%. My mom got laid off 4 years ago and has not been able to get another job since. She is now taking classes trying to get a job in a totally different field (medical).

We did catch the housing boom a little bit, but prices are on the way back down. Housing prices in most areas are well below the national median and falling. One of my co-workers' property tax assessment fell 17% this year. Mine only went down 6%, but I'm in a low-price area where no one will buy. My neighbor has had his house for sale for 2 full years now.

Most of the job losses have been industrial-- primarily automotive--and construction (housing bust) but there have been some other high-profile losses like Pfizer shutting down a research facility with something like 2000 jobs.

 
Yes, Michigan's makin' me cry -

4 yrs ago i was gainfully employed as a design tech - based on my job dissatisfaction and desire to move to higher levels, my wife & i figured we'd take the brief window of opportunity afforded at that particular time in life for me to return to school to get the necess. ABET degree to be able to become licensed. Now, I can't find a job even below what i was earning 4 yrs ago, and i got a 30k loan to pay off! Many, many land development firms have sucessfully migrated to offices out-of-state (whereever the work is). Ex bosses & my network would love to hire me back or in, if their budget would just allow, yada-yada. For the first time ever in my home-owning adult life, our state equalized value (SEV) on our house actually went down!! That never happens!!! Seriously!

Yes virginia, there may be no recession in your neck of the woods, but here in the Great Lakes state, its as bad as the early 80's (Reagan-nomics)

 
Yes, Michigan's makin' me cry -4 yrs ago i was gainfully employed as a design tech - based on my job dissatisfaction and desire to move to higher levels, my wife & i figured we'd take the brief window of opportunity afforded at that particular time in life for me to return to school to get the necess. ABET degree to be able to become licensed. Now, I can't find a job even below what i was earning 4 yrs ago, and i got a 30k loan to pay off! Many, many land development firms have sucessfully migrated to offices out-of-state (whereever the work is). Ex bosses & my network would love to hire me back or in, if their budget would just allow, yada-yada. For the first time ever in my home-owning adult life, our state equalized value (SEV) on our house actually went down!! That never happens!!! Seriously!

Yes virginia, there may be no recession in your neck of the woods, but here in the Great Lakes state, its as bad as the early 80's (Reagan-nomics)
Have you considered moving? I don't think every place in the country is as bad as Michigan. It sure doesn't seem that bad in California. At least not yet.

 
^^Would that i was, maybe 15 yrs younger. We have a budding family (an almost 2 & 3+ yr old), a 16 yr old on the verge of finishing high school, in addition to all our family being here, and my wife having a very proficient career (computer related). So my gripin' is all from my frustrated point of view - of taking the steps to improve my career track, only to have none of it pan out the way i envisioned (such is life). it'll pay off eventally, its a long-term investment - if only ill advised to have undertaken, given the state of the State.

It would have to take a whale of an opportunity for us to pick up & head for 'greener' pastures. Its not impossible, just improbable presently.

 
I haven't lived in the mainland US since 1995. So maybe I'm a bit out of touch. But, I do get plenty of news out here. And lately, it seems like everyone is talking about a recession, and perhaps the worst one in a generation (as said on NPR two days ago). I've also read opinion pieces from economists that sound extremely negative, as if the US is on a permanent decline, with China-Russia-India poised to become the new world economic powers.
I'm just wondering what the feeling about our (US) economic condition is with all of you living back there. I'm wondering if I might be better off in the long term just staying out here, closer to the potential economic future. Or, if moving back to the states will be a better idea, as it has appeared to be for a long time until now. Do you guys think housing prices will fall significantly, for example? (so I can afford to live there!)

but I guess to your question, there is always going to be affordable housing here, just depends if you mind living with rednecks or not?

It hasnt really hit the South East , other than residential market, that bad, but Atlanta isnt a "blue colar" city, theres not much manufacturing here, mainly "office" type jobs. I wonder if all the illegals who were here working in the residential market have left to go to the high paying jobs in Mexico? <-- When that happens we'll be in a recession...

But if you will recall the last time the news was this frantic about the economy was the last election, and then the one before, then the one before that, etc, etc,

 
^^Well, maybe it's that our local economy is in near-depression here ( all my neighbors have lost their jobs and moved away to the states - we're the only ones left), but from out here, on the doorstep of Asia, things aren't looking very good at all. Especially when you look back 10 years or so.

 
Have you considered moving? I don't think every place in the country is as bad as Michigan. It sure doesn't seem that bad in California. At least not yet.
Having been paid off in California a year ago, I think California is doing terribly. My first company was around 150 when I left 2 years ago, and is now nearing 50. The last of my friends there got laid off last week, and every single person that had left to go work for developers has been laid off over a year. (That, of course, is the price you pay- huge salary, no job security.) The last round of layoffs was 13, and the 6 I have heard about are all leaving the state.

My now fiance (YAY!) even had a hard time finding a job as a pediatrician, which hasn't happened in decades, if at all. I made him move to me (Dallas) because I didn't think I could get a job somewhere else. Texas is starting to get hit too- TxDOT is on a hiring freeze, and a lot of places around here aren't actively looking, but it's not NEARLY as bad as California, Michigan, and Florida (am I missing somewhere?).

I found it easy to find a job once I was willing to leave CA. I don't think it would still be quite as easy this year as it was last year (two offers in one day, both during phone interviews :true: ). I sent my resume out to probably 30 places in California, had 4 interviews, none of which ended up resulting in anything.

I won't even get started on people being able to pay their mortgage and zero-down, interest-only loans...

 
Having been paid off in California a year ago, I think California is doing terribly. My first company was around 150 when I left 2 years ago, and is now nearing 50. The last of my friends there got laid off last week, and every single person that had left to go work for developers has been laid off over a year. (That, of course, is the price you pay- huge salary, no job security.) The last round of layoffs was 13, and the 6 I have heard about are all leaving the state.
My now fiance (YAY!) even had a hard time finding a job as a pediatrician, which hasn't happened in decades, if at all. I made him move to me (Dallas) because I didn't think I could get a job somewhere else. Texas is starting to get hit too- TxDOT is on a hiring freeze, and a lot of places around here aren't actively looking, but it's not NEARLY as bad as California, Michigan, and Florida (am I missing somewhere?).

I found it easy to find a job once I was willing to leave CA. I don't think it would still be quite as easy this year as it was last year (two offers in one day, both during phone interviews :true: ). I sent my resume out to probably 30 places in California, had 4 interviews, none of which ended up resulting in anything.

I won't even get started on people being able to pay their mortgage and zero-down, interest-only loans...
Sorry that was your experience, but that isn't my experience. Everybody I know is employed, although they are mainly electrical engineers. I admit I don't know much about civil engineer employment. Maybe the civil people just got hurt worse because the real estate and development boom is now over. In the place where I work (state government) we are still hiring because the engineers are mainly exempt from the current hiring freeze. I just sat on employment panels where we interviewed a total of 10 people, all of whom had jobs but were looking for better jobs. Granted, we don't make a fortune, but we are around 100K.

I am really surprised a doctor couldn't find a job. Is that what you're saying? There are no jobs for doctors in California? Because frankly, that is really surprising.

 
I am really surprised a doctor couldn't find a job. Is that what you're saying? There are no jobs for doctors in California? Because frankly, that is really surprising.
No, I meant in Texas and the midwest specifically. I had already moved to Dallas so he wasn't looking there, so I'm not sure how it is out there for doctors. He didn't want to deal with the California medical system and refused to go there so the move the TX worked out anyway. I'm not sure about jobs in California, but in the rest of the country they were pretty hard to come by. I think he ended up only getting 3 interviews, which was about average for his class. Last year they were averaging over 10.

 
No, I meant in Texas and the midwest specifically. I had already moved to Dallas so he wasn't looking there, so I'm not sure how it is out there for doctors. He didn't want to deal with the California medical system and refused to go there so the move the TX worked out anyway. I'm not sure about jobs in California, but in the rest of the country they were pretty hard to come by. I think he ended up only getting 3 interviews, which was about average for his class. Last year they were averaging over 10.
Well, that is not a good sign. Luckily he did find something.

Maybe I'm just lucky. I hope it doesn't get too much worse then. because I sure don't want to have to look for a new job.

 
Sorry that was your experience, but that isn't my experience. Everybody I know is employed, although they are mainly electrical engineers. I admit I don't know much about civil engineer employment. Maybe the civil people just got hurt worse because the real estate and development boom is now over. In the place where I work (state government) we are still hiring because the engineers are mainly exempt from the current hiring freeze. I just sat on employment panels where we interviewed a total of 10 people, all of whom had jobs but were looking for better jobs. Granted, we don't make a fortune, but we are around 100K.
I am really surprised a doctor couldn't find a job. Is that what you're saying? There are no jobs for doctors in California? Because frankly, that is really surprising.
I'm in mechanical, but my experience is similar. Everyone who I went to college with is gainfully employed or in academia. When I graduated in '03, I had committed to my employer 5 months before graduation. Everyone who graduated in May (as opposed to the following December - the 4.5 year plan) had a job at graduation day, most of us with multiple offers.

I've sat on many interview panels over the last 6 months to fill two positions in our group...without exception, our interviewees were employed in the field but looking for something new. We only had one guy who was clearly in dire straits (unfortunately for him he wasn't remotely qualified). We made two offers that were declined due to 1) the guy wanting more pay than we were offering, and 2) a guy who wasn't actually serious about wanting to change jobs.

My cousin is a civil, a PE, and she and her hubby are trying to head back to Michigan after a year in Illinois due to his job. She's having a heck of a time finding a job in the part of the state where they want to live. Granted, Michigan is all kinds of messed up right now in terms of employment/economy, but her old firm just doesn't have a job to give her. You couldn't pay me enough money to move to Michigan now - and my family is FROM there!

Mr. Bug has been working in electronics sales for about 2.5 years now and things aren't looking good in retail at all. Folks have less disposable income for those things and he's seen his hours cut by about 10% over the last quarter or so. Since he's paid hourly, he's bringing home a little less money than he used to. Unfortunately he's finishing up his degree (will be done in August) and is having a miserable time finding a better job in his field of study (marketing). Being brutally honest, he'll never land the type of work he really wants. Kind of sad that he's worked so hard for a decade to get through school, only to be job hunting during a tight job market. He also should have probably gone into the health care field or teaching, not into marketing/business. Oh, well.

Thank heavens I'm in a pretty stable industry. Thanks to the global nature of my company we haven't been hit as hard by the construction/real estate slowdown in the US (China's going nutso and that makes up for it). However, I realized about 6 months ago that my engineering skills have become VERY specialized. That specialization is part of what's spurring me on this goal to getting a PE - it provides me with a credential that's fairly "portable". Everything I do now is very specific to the elevator world...and while people will always NEED elevators, I'm not so foolish as to think my employer will necessarily be retaining large numbers of engineers in the US, not when they can operate engineering centers so cheaply in China.

Kind of depressing to think about starting a family in this economic climate...what kind of country/world will my children have to look forward to? I truly don't know if we'd fully bounce back after a recession, or if China and India will become the new economic superpowers.

 
I still trust in capitalism to ride things out, its the natual balancing act, assuming we can keep the government out of it.

 
Kind of depressing to think about starting a family in this economic climate...what kind of country/world will my children have to look forward to?
That was one of my concerns about starting a family. I honestly don't know what kind of country/world they are going to inherit. If it is tough for me to be satisfied with my living, I can't imagine what it will be like for them. In actuality, it turns out that I never started a family because .. I never seemed to be able to slip one past the goalie. :true:

I hope Mr. Bug's propects look up. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to be unemployed or even underemployed in a job market that you worked so hard to break into.

I still trust in capitalism to ride things out, its the natual balancing act, assuming we can keep the government out of it.
It sounds like the Bush Administration wants to make the largest sweep in overhauling the financial system since the Great Depression - Paulson unveils sweeping financial reform plan

Convinced that government is going to stay out of it??

JR

 
Having been paid off in California a year ago, I think California is doing terribly. My first company was around 150 when I left 2 years ago, and is now nearing 50. The last of my friends there got laid off last week, and every single person that had left to go work for developers has been laid off over a year. (That, of course, is the price you pay- huge salary, no job security.) The last round of layoffs was 13, and the 6 I have heard about are all leaving the state.

Not that I don't believe you, but I haven't seen any of that. I'm like the boy in a bubble with my government job. I guess I've been out of the loop for a few years. I only deal with one consulting firm and they seem busy, but they only do public/government work.

 
At risk of posting another long-ey: here's an article from John Lott, an author I admire. A great read to get a balanced perspective:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,343671,00.html

The 'Recession' Is a Media MythMonday , March 31, 2008

By John R. Lott, Jr.

During the 2000 election, with Bill Clinton as president, the economy was viewed through rose-colored glasses. According to polls, voters didn’t realize that the country was in a recession. Although the economy started shrinking in July 2000, most Americans through the entire year thought that the economy was fine.

But over the last half-year, the media and politicians have said we were in a recession even while the economy was still growing.

Gas prices are going up. The economy is slowing. Talk of recession is seemingly everywhere. While the majority of people rate their personal finances positively, consumer confidence in the economy has plunged to a 16-year low, well below what it was during the last year of the Clinton administration when we were in a recession.

A Google search on news stories during the three-month period from July 2000 through September 2000 using the keywords “economy recession US” produces 1,610. By contrast, the same search over just the last month finds 50,763. Or, even more telling, take the three months from July through September last year, when the GDP was growing at a phenomenal 4.9 percent. The same type of Google search shows 7,310 news stories.

Over 4.5 times more negative news stories discussed a recession when the economy under a Republican was soaring than occurred under a Democrat when the economy was shrinking.

A little perspective on the economy would be helpful. The average unemployment rate during President Clinton was 5.2 percent. The average under President George W. Bush is just slightly below 5.2. The current unemployment rate is 4.8 percent, almost half a percentage point lower than these averages.

The average inflation rate under Clinton was 2.6 percent, under Bush it is 2.7 percent. Indeed, one has to go back to the Kennedy administration to find a lower average rate. True the inflation rate over the last year has gone up to 4 percent, but that is still lower than the average inflation rate under all the presidents from Nixon through Bush’s father.

Gas prices are indeed up 33 percent over the last year, but to get an average of 4 percent means that lots of other prices must have stayed the same or gone down. On other fronts, seasonally adjusted civilian employment is 650,000 people greater than it was a year ago. Personal income grew at a strong half of one percent in just February.

Despite all that, this last week, Barack Obama proclaimed “As most experts know, our economy is in a recession.” Hillary Clinton made similar staements last fall. Yet, as any economist knows, a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative growth, and we haven’t even had one single quarter of negative growth reported. The economy slowed down significantly during the end of last year, but that was after a sizzling annual GDP growth rate of 4.9 percent in the third quarter.

Housing has obviously been a big drag on the economy, but many other sectors of the economy, such as exports, have been doing well, some extremely well. For example, aerospace exports increased by over 13 percent last year.

The media’s focus on the negative side of everything surely helps explain people’s pessimism. In a recent interview Fox’s Neil Cavuto claimed this bias “is all part of the media’s plan to get a Democrat in the White House.”

Indeed, research has indicated that media bias is real. Kevin Hassett and I looked at 12,620 newspaper and wire service headlines from 1985 through 2004 for stories on the release of official government releasing numbers on the unemployment rate, number of people employed, gross domestic product (GDP), retail sales, and durable goods.

Even after accounting for how well the economy was doing (e.g., what the unemployment rate was and whether it was going up or down), there was still a big difference in how positive or negative the headlines were. Democratic presidents got about 15 percent more positive headlines than Republicans for the same economic news.

Yet, the hysteria created by this coverage can have another cost. It creates pressure for government to “do something,” even if that rush to do something actually ends up hurting the economy. For example, Obama's promises last week “to amend our bankruptcy laws so families aren't forced to stick to the terms of a home loan” will only further drive down the value of mortgage-backed securities, making any unstable financial institutions that hold them even more likely to fail. In the long term, who is going to want to loan money when the contract can be rewritten at a later date?

The news media have generated a lot of fear. Ben Stein has a point when he says “The actual economic conditions are not that bad. I think if we have a recession, if we have a serious recession, a great deal will lie at the media’s feet.” Hopefully a little perspective will enter the picture before even more harm is done.

John Lott is the author of Freedomnomics and a senior research scientist at the University of Maryland.
 

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