Recession?

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Dleg

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I haven't lived in the mainland US since 1995. So maybe I'm a bit out of touch. But, I do get plenty of news out here. And lately, it seems like everyone is talking about a recession, and perhaps the worst one in a generation (as said on NPR two days ago). I've also read opinion pieces from economists that sound extremely negative, as if the US is on a permanent decline, with China-Russia-India poised to become the new world economic powers.

I'm just wondering what the feeling about our (US) economic condition is with all of you living back there. I'm wondering if I might be better off in the long term just staying out here, closer to the potential economic future. Or, if moving back to the states will be a better idea, as it has appeared to be for a long time until now. Do you guys think housing prices will fall significantly, for example? (so I can afford to live there!)

 
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I haven't lived in the mainland US since 1995. So maybe I'm a bit out of touch. But, I do get plenty of news out here. And lately, it seems like everyone is talking about a recession, and perhaps the worst one in a generation (as said on NPR two days ago). I've also read opinion pieces from economists that sound extremely negative, as if the US is on a permanent decline, with China-Russia-India poised to become the new world economic powers.
I'm just wondering what the feeling about our (US) economic condition is with all of you living back there. I'm wondering if I might be better off in the long term just staying out here, closer to the potential economic future. Or, if moving back to the states will be a better idea, as it has appeared to be for a long time until now. Do you guys think housing prices will fall significantly, for example? (so I can afford to live there!)
Housing prices have been dropping like a rock! Not so much by me in the mountains of CO, but I know Denver has seen a huge drop.

 
I think this recession is probably overblown. Yes we'll take a hit, people will lose their houses/stock portfolios/jobs but in 6 months to a year we'll be fine and the stock market will be skyrocketing again and everything will be back to normal.

BUT.... I think the massive debt the US government is collecting combined with a failing social security system and massive expenditures in Medicare are really really really scary. I think in our lifetime we will see a Great Depression style collapse in our economy because of the massive debt we're building up. Democrats think helping the poor and increasing taxes will help, Republicans think giving the taxes back to the rich will help. I think they're both idiots and are all driving us into the poor house to keep themselves elected.

 
On the bigger picture, though, don't you guys worry about the fact that the US is no longer manufacturing much in the way of goods? It seems the whole balance of things has shifted to Asia. What will be the source of wealth in the US in the near and distant future, if all the consumer goods we buy are coming from overseas?

 
I dont see the lack of manufacturing as a big problem. The US economy is shifting and developing in ways the world has never seen and I think the offshoring of manufacturing is a sign of this.

On this note though what I do find scary is the potential for the US to lose its scientific advantage. Losing manufacturing doesnt hurt as long as we're cranking out innovative products and discoveries, if we lose that then Ill be worried.

 
Dleg,

As far as house prices, they have been falling in the larger, more expensive cities. When I was in Miami a few months ago, there were entire neighborhoods that had been foreclosed and many people looking to get out of there looking for greener pastures. I have heard that housing prices were generally more stable in, of all places, college towns. I would say that is consistent based on what I am seeing locally - not too much drop off in the price of real estate except for the higher-end market.

FWIW - I always wondered how the median price of a house in a particular market could be priced well above what the median salary of a family in that market could afford. If anything, the housing market is just re-adjusting to what people can afford. I don't know what it means long-term because I don't know how salaries are going to fare long-term, but I feel confident in saying that run the housing market has had COULD NOT have been sustained for very long.

I agree with FW in large part - while our economy is taking it on the chin for a lot of different reasons, it will slowly begin to stabilize again. You may have read about the debacle with the Bear Stearns investment bankers losing >50% of thier worth in stock within minutes and eventually getting bought out by a competitor. For them, they got hit from over-speculating on the sub-prime mortgage market. While this sounds like a doom-and-gloom scenario when a behemouth company like Bear Stearns goes belly up - thier competitors are actually posting record gains. Wall Street THRIVES on people who can adequately manage risk because if you aren't taking a risk, you aren't getting ahead. And while there are signs of trouble, there is still a viable, lucrative market of making money.

I also agree with FW about the debt our country is amassing. At some point the system is going to become so tilted towards debt (or at least debt + recurring expenses) that it will be impossible to fix. Much like FW - I am not happy with how either major political party has handled it, but then again, I don't have a crystal ball to make recommendations to fix it. Our aging workforce that is moving towards retirement is also going to strain reserves for health insurance, company cash flow, and money going INTO our economy.

Back to your point though, the biggest signs I see of a recession or maybe closer to your point the 'affordability' of living, I would say housing, food, gas, and salary/pay are good indicators. While I agree that the price of houses have gone up significantly, I would actually note that the food has probably gone up even more in a relative sense. My wife and I were having huge fights over the price of groceries and I am only now coming to realize that groceries really ARE that expensive now. Gas prices factor in simply because I think there is a HUGE potential for those costs to really eat away at the quality of life for the average person. While + $1/gallon gas can realistically be absorbed, I also believe that people who already have it tough are going to have it that much tougher.

Which really brings me to the point that I wanted to make but unfortunately I am just long-winded. For many, I think we FEEL a recession because we are having to budget our money. Americans, in general, are very spoiled and being put into a situation of having to put our disposable income into the recurring expenses column on a permanent basis is not very satisfying. I know I have been less than pleased with my personal recession, so I can only begin to imagine what it is like for others.

One other thought:

I think a person can still do well in this country/economy if they are willing to be flexible with thier selection of vocation/profession AND with relocating. It seems that many businesses are having to change with the times and if your employer (industry) is making changes then you had better be prepared to make changes too if you plan on staying at the top. That flexibility also extends to a willingness to change employers to stay on top of your game.

:2cents:

JR

 
Here's an opinion piece from last week that got me a little worried. Now, keep in mind it was printed in our local Saipan newspaper, but it is by a guy who runs a consulting business from the states, that serves businesses doing business in Asia, not just our little backwaters. (He also writes a column for a pilots magazine). I think he knows what he is talking about:

link

By Ed Stephens Jr.Special to the Saipan Tribune

For many years, I have warned Saipan Tribune readers that the U.S. dollar, and the pile of toxic debt it is built on, will all collapse in an ugly heap.

And it’s happening. Right in front of our eyes. It’s the stuff of global headlines right now. There will be time, a lot of time, later, to analyze the impact on Saipan, but today let’s just ponder the general situation.

And first, yes, I’ll say "I told you so," about this dollar and credit gig, since I figure if a guy ventures predictions in writing, he’s entitled to settle the account when the scores come in.

Now that the stuff has hit the fan, many folks have asked me, recently, how they can prepare for the financial mess. Well, it’s too late to prepare, of course. The time to hide from this storm was before it hit, which is why I’ve been poking you in the chest all these years with my warnings.

Understand this: This is not a mere U.S. "recession" we’re talking about, anymore than driving your car off Suicide Cliff is a speeding problem. This isn’t some hiccup in financial markets that can be smoothed over by the government, the banking industry, some clever interest rate tweaking, a glib speech, or anything else. The plain fact is that the world is realizing that the U.S. has amassed so many debts, both public and private, that much of the money can’t, and won’t, be paid back. In order to try to prop up this dead horse, the U.S. is reducing interest rates and, basically sacrificing the value of the dollar in the process. My pals who thought I was paranoid about this years ago, well, they aren’t laughing now. Suckers!

This is a one-way slide. Standards of living in the United States will fall substantially. I don’t want that to happen, of course, but what I want isn’t the issue.

As it is, over my lifetime, I have seen the typical middle class household going from needing one earner, to needing two, just to get by. It’s not the welfare class that is totally dependent on government; now the middle class, too, has government as the single biggest player in their expenses, their mortgages, their educations, their health care, their pensions. I’m not saying this is good or bad, it’s simply what the people want. Politically, nothing else can come from a large democracy.

But, economically, they’ve been living in a fool’s paradise, thinking they could enjoy both a living standard toward the top of the list, while also plunging into total bureaucratic collectivism. The latter entails centralized planning, and this induces distortions in markets that eventually reduce economic output, investment and, eventually, average income. Again, I am not saying this is good or bad; that’s not my judgment to make.

In the coming months, you can expect a louder chorus of whining for "somebody else" to fix everything, since the people have long ago given up their abilities, or even desire, to control their own lives. You’ve seen this dynamic on Saipan, of course; the "next" politician is going to fix everything that the "last" politician messed up.

My first exposure to that mentality was my school days, when I’d travel to Europe. I noticed that the main topic of conversation in cafés and on trains was how the government should do this, or should do that. Government, not private initiative, was the central focus of life. Subsidies took place of opportunity. Many people seemed to revel in their helplessness; they rooted for officials to improve their lives like football fans root for a running back to score a goal.

Sure, it’s an odd way to live, yelling from the sidelines, but it requires no exertion or skill, and it allows one to blame everyone else, or at least someone else, for any bad outcomes. Most of the Western world has sunk to this level. The Eastern world, by contrast, is rising. And here, twixt the two, is Saipan.

Never mind what the stock market did yesterday. Forget what the pooh-bahs of policy say. And who cares what gold costs? That’s mere trivia now, so trivial that it’s not even newsworthy. The real news is that, as much as it breaks my heart to see it, the U.S. financial structure is in danger of losing its credibility. The recent headlines may be the gust front ahead of the storm, or they may be the actual storm, but rest assured, the dark clouds are on the horizon.

So don’t condescend too much to our garment workers; your grandchildren may wind up being nannies for their grandchildren.

Ed’s column runs every Friday. Visit Ed at TropicalEd.com.
 
It is all because of our huge government debt, which funds the unjust occupation of another nation, all because of oil. Thanks GWB, you have out done Herbert Hoover as being the worst president ever!

 
Well a recession is two quarters of negative growth, and we haven't had one quarter yet (although last quarters growth at 0.4% wasn't stellar), so we may, at the most, be on the outset of one.

I don't think we are though, and here's why: the housing market has needed a corection for some time. The markets that have been overvalued are getting slammed, whiule others have remained fairly steady. Most journalists live in big cities, and those are the markets that have suffered the most. So journalist report what they see.

FW is dead on with the oncoming entitlement disaster. Quite frankly, I'd give up all the money I allready have in Social Security if they'd just let me invest my 15% contribution for the rest of my life. I damn sure could do better than what the gov does.

 
It is all because of our huge government debt, which funds the unjust occupation of another nation, all because of oil. Thanks GWB, you have out done Herbert Hoover as being the worst president ever!
I won't debate the merits of the war, because although I have strong opinions on a lot of things, the War is one thing I am probably right in the middle on, and readily admit I probably don't have the expertise to evaluate it. However, I will point out that, as the military is fully voluntary, your statement implies that all soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines are either -

1. Willfully complicit in an illegal occupation for oil

or

2. Mindless dupes of an evil government.

I am certain that neither of those things are true. So, you might want to save the fierce rhetoric for the Daily Kos, rather than an engineering message board.

 
On topic, they say a recession is when your neighbor loses their job, a depression is when you lose your job. We may be heading into a recession, or even a depression for all I know, but as for now, everybody I know has a job. When I interviewed the other day, all the candidates who came in already had jobs and were looking for better ones. The unemployment rate is somewhere around 5% - whereas I think it was around 15 or 20% in the depression.

Granted, most of my friends have lost maybe 10% of the 100% gains they made in real estate, and my stocks haven't gone anywhere in a year, but as for right now I don't see it.

But if you are unemployed, then you are already in a depression, so I feel for you.

Inflation, especially gas prices, is another thing,

 
peoples personal debt skyrocketing is a bigger problem than our governments debt, and then when they buy a house $100,000 more than they can afford they expect some type of bailout?

I watched this trend in Atlanta, people would buy a house for $250K, sell it a year later and move into a $350K house, do the same thing, buy a $450K house in hopes of selling it before you realize you cant afford the payment, except reality finally caught up with the market and people stopped buying houses, especially ones that cost $400K.

Technically a recession is 2 or more quarters of negative growth, have we had that? I dont know, things are not as well as they wer 2 years ago. But I still see full lines at the home depot, lots of new cars being bought, Target is always slammed on the weekends, etc, of course most are probably adding to their Visa bill.

Maybe Obama's or Hillary's social health care plan will help pull the economy out of the red

 
benbo, would you believe 34% unemployment at the height of the depression?

Honestly, I think the recession in 2000 (dot com bubble) was worse than the economy today and the 80-81 recession blows 2000 away. It was really bad then with some loans going at 17%. Shoot, when I bought my first new car in 89, the best interest rate I could get out of my credit union was 11%!

People just need to live within their means and put some money aside for a rainy day. I'm shocked by how many people are planning to use their tax rebate to buy big screen TVs.

 
On the bigger picture, though, don't you guys worry about the fact that the US is no longer manufacturing much in the way of goods? It seems the whole balance of things has shifted to Asia. What will be the source of wealth in the US in the near and distant future, if all the consumer goods we buy are coming from overseas?
Dleg:

Personally, I see this as a big problem, because we don't have a self-sustaining economy. Americans want to make money in the manufacturing business and the basic labor force demands a wage providing a comfortable living here. This forces the end cost of the product to be hgigher than those same workers are willing to pay, given the less expensive overseas manufactured alternatives.

A lot of US wealth is from the "business" or finance side, and is making some individuals very wealthy while Joe Hard Hat goes down the tubes.

They always say it's an easier ride to the top than it is to stay there. We're trying to maintain a standard of living while a lot of the world is rising up to ours. Whenever something "levels" anything above the level tends to come down.

 
People just need to live within their means and put some money aside for a rainy day. I'm shocked by how many people are planning to use their tax rebate to buy big screen TVs.
That's what the governement wants you to do to throw more money into the economy and keep the sales force (jobs) alive.

 
I blame it all on personal spending habits, too. I don't know how people do it. I know I don't make as much as I like but when it comes down to it I am well paid and it is hard to make ends meet. Around here the median house is just under $300K and the math tells you that most people can't afford to live there AND pay for the two new SUVs out front, but that's all you see. It is quite puzzling to me.

 
Regarding the 2 SUVs in front of the 300K home: A buddy of mine said that 41% of all car loans are for 7 years.

 
Regarding the 2 SUVs in front of the 300K home: A buddy of mine said that 41% of all car loans are for 7 years.
i am addicted to the housing flippinh shows and they recently had a hairdresser from something that looked like supercuts driving a lexus SC who was flipping a house.

those shows really illustrate the problem with housing. people would come in and make ****** improvements and walk away with a $60K profit after 4 weeks.

 
Well a recession is two quarters of negative growth, and we haven't had one quarter yet (although last quarters growth at 0.4% wasn't stellar), so we may, at the most, be on the outset of one.
I don't think we are though, and here's why: the housing market has needed a corection for some time. The markets that have been overvalued are getting slammed, whiule others have remained fairly steady. Most journalists live in big cities, and those are the markets that have suffered the most. So journalist report what they see.

FW is dead on with the oncoming entitlement disaster. Quite frankly, I'd give up all the money I allready have in Social Security if they'd just let me invest my 15% contribution for the rest of my life. I damn sure could do better than what the gov does.
Agreed on all points.

peoples personal debt skyrocketing is a bigger problem than our governments debt, and then when they buy a house $100,000 more than they can afford they expect some type of bailout?
Huge pet peeve of mine. We bought a starter house that's not fancy or in a rich suburb - because we couldn't afford our dream home in our mid-20s. We got a house that we could comfortably afford. We have so many friends and relatives our age who are in debt up to their eyeballs. People with comparable income to us spent $100-150K+ more on a mortgage, often for a smaller/older house than ours (all to live in a more affluent area). I have no idea how they afford it.

Student loan debt is a huge problem. Mr. Bug worked his way through college part-time (he's on his last class now) and I used a combination of scholarships and a small federal student loan to finance my undergrad. I chose to work for a company with good educational benefits, and they paid for grad school. We are the exception among people we know, though. I have a coworker who's 28 and still lives at home with his parents, because he has $120K in student loans to pay off (he very stupidly just bought a $30K SUV because he was "bored" with his old car). Mr. Bug's sister just HAD to go to a very expensive grad school, and a few years later is upset that she can't be a stay-at-home mom, solely because of her pile of student loan debt.

We have two paid-for cars...almost everyone we know has at least one car loan, usually two. And these people aren't buying a 2 or 3 year old used car, they buy new and loaded with options. Financed for 6 or 7 years, too, and when they get tired with the car after a few years they trade in and just go more upside-down on the next loan! I don't mind one small-ish car loan at a time, but two would just suck.

We're weird in that we save up to pay in cash for home improvements, vacations, and luxury items. Everyone else uses home equity lines or credit cards (surfing the balance for lower interest rates) to pay for what they want. It's like it's a novel concept to only buy what you can afford.

Almost no one has significant savings. Mr. Bug and I are working on saving up enough to cover all expenses for 4-6 months and again, it's like we're weird. These are educated young couples and families with six-figure incomes, yet they still live paycheck to paycheck. Growing up, my parents were laid off or downsized often enough that I know to NEVER trust in job stability or security.

I'm worried about the economy. Mr. Bug and I desperately want to start our family, but daycare's expensive. Private school's expensive. Food's expensive. College savings is expensive. Kids in general are expensive. We do plan to try for a baby in the next year or so, but we've held off longer than we originally wanted to - primarily due to financial worries. We want a nice fat emergency fund in the bank and to be at a good level of savings before taking on the financial pressures of children.

 

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