Pot meet Kettle

[leggo PE]

Shouldn't the MeToo movement apply to everyone? All those who perpetrate others should be held accountable, and I give credit to anyone and everyone who comes forward, and discredit those who deny that they have or could have or might have perpetrated anyone in whatever capacity.

But it's really hard to deny that certain groups (gender, race, and sexual identity) are apparently targeted more than others. This is just what we know based on those who've come forward. I'm sure there are many more people out there who still don't feel safe coming forward.

Does any of this mean you should deny legitimacy to everyone? I certainly do not think so.

 

[Violator]

Did Urban Meyer get off easy or too harsh? How do you prove hearsay?

 

[Dleg]

My biggest problem with the meetoo movement is it's blatantly unconstitutional.  The accused are assumed guilty until proven innocent, and lives and careers are being destroyed without any due process. I am sure that many of them truly are guilty, but that's not how our society was built to work. Otherwise, lynchings would be a daily activity on the streets of America, for every popular crime, and it would be celebrated. But for the past year, you just couldn't come out and say this without being accused yourself of being a misogynist. Unfortunately, it will now take some women having their lives destroyed by unproven accusations to drive that basic point home, and maybe reign in the mob mentality a little.

 

[MA_PE]

My biggest problem with the meetoo movement is it's blatantly unconstitutional.  The accused are assumed guilty until proven innocent, and lives and careers are being destroyed without any due process. I am sure that many of them truly are guilty, but that's not how our society was built to work. Otherwise, lynchings would be a daily activity on the streets of America, for every popular crime, and it would be celebrated. But for the past year, you just couldn't come out and say this without being accused yourself of being a misogynist. Unfortunately, it will now take some women having their lives destroyed by unproven accusations to drive that basic point home, and maybe reign in the mob mentality a little.

the underlined could be used to describe any of a number of current "movements".  we have the internet and human nature to blame.  Everybody and their brother (or sister) has the ability to post, comment, tweet, etc. and "news" site jump to post the most hyperbolic headlines and controversial events to get "clicks".  The comments clamor for "action":  Fire him!, Boycott! and things are more frequently tried in the court of public opinion regardless of the facts getting in the way.  In other words, people suck.

 

[Dleg]

People do suck, but I don't think it is really all that different than the times in which the Constitution was written.  The only thing that has changed is the form of the media, but the hype and hysteria are all the same. In fact, "people suck" was the driving motivation behind writing the Constitution as they did. 

 

[csb]

It's about power. For years women were the ones who were sexually assaulted or harassed at work and they kept quiet because they didn't want to lose their jobs. They were discredited if they said something, because Mr. So-an-so is a fine upstanding character and you could ruin his life if you say anything. Even today it happens, where a woman will have to put up with blatant sexual harassment or advances and she'll need to laugh it off so that no one isolates her and labels her as a problem. 

So the #metoo movement was a pendulum swing where finally women had power. It felt good to have men be the ones instantly discredited. It felt good to have all the power. 

We'll eventually, hopefully fall somewhere in the middle, but I know it's hard to see another group in power if you're part of the group that's always been in power. 

 

[Dleg]

I understand that, but it's not how our form of government is supposed to work. There are protections that are supposed to be given to everyone. Yes, there are many groups in our society that have gotten a less than fair deal. But one great thing about America is that it is always improving itself and correcting past wrongs (maybe in fits and starts and with occasional setbacks). But wrighting a wrong should not include the element of revenge. That's not forward progress. 

 

[Master slacker]

Enter stories like this:

https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/sports/lsu/article_0a077af8-a32f-11e8-9d15-efd5e8fb5bd8.html

The woman accusing LSU football player Drake Davis of punching and grabbing her by the throat on multiple occasions is retracting the allegations, according to Davis' attorney. 

Marci Blaize said her client’s accuser provided a statement retracting the allegations to her as well as law enforcement. 

“I have been contacted by the victim and she has provided me a statement that the allegations are, in fact, false," Blaize said. "It’s my understanding that she has also made similar statements to other entities in law enforcement.”

...

Davis was arrested Friday and booked on a count of second-degree battery.

...

Blaize released an additional statement on behalf of her client, who remains in East Baton Rouge Parish Prison on Saturday afternoon.

“This has been an absolute nightmare for Drake and his family,” Blaize said. “We hope that the truth surfaces and that the matter is resolved favorably so he can get back to living his life.”

An LSU official said Davis has been suspended from the team indefinitely after he was arrested and booked Friday. 

Now, I'm not saying he is an angel... but who do we believe?  The accuser or the accused?  Either way, he was sitting in jail because of a story that was later retracted.  I lived with the football team my freshman year and I KNOW many of them do less than legal things.  But this guy, assumed guilty already, is suspended from the team.  I'm fairly sure this is not the first instance of false (maybe) reporting of a "victim".

How is it that society can destroy or severely impact someone's livelihood based on one side of the story?  Guilty until proven innocent or Innocent until proven guilty?  And does innocent include reasonable doubt?  These "movements" started with high-profile people, but it's affecting less-than-notable people (sometimes innocent) because of "believe the victim (accuser) regardless".  It's a problem when someone lies.

 

[Dexman PE PMP]

^^^ The converse to that are the players who do the "less than legal" things and have several layers of protection in place by the school because they are the money-makers.  It makes coming forward insanely difficult because it pits young college women against well-funded and very well guarded perpetrators who will absolutely ruin the woman's life simply for saying something. 

 

[Dexman PE PMP]

One thing to keep in mind as well, is that several of these "retractions" aren't because they are false accusations, but rather because the well-protected perpetrator is utilizing their resources to persuade the victim to do it.  Hush money, threats, harassment, etc. 

 

[wilheldp_PE]

It's about power. For years women were the ones who were sexually assaulted or harassed at work and they kept quiet because they didn't want to lose their jobs. They were discredited if they said something, because Mr. So-an-so is a fine upstanding character and you could ruin his life if you say anything. Even today it happens, where a woman will have to put up with blatant sexual harassment or advances and she'll need to laugh it off so that no one isolates her and labels her as a problem. 

So the #metoo movement was a pendulum swing where finally women had power. It felt good to have men be the ones instantly discredited. It felt good to have all the power. 

We'll eventually, hopefully fall somewhere in the middle, but I know it's hard to see another group in power if you're part of the group that's always been in power. 

I was going to post that very thing until I clicked over to this page.  Everything is a pendulum...politics, societal norms, labor v. management, etc.  It's just that women have been repressed for longer than minorities in this country that is driving the #metoo movement.  I understand the motivations behind the movement, but I also agree that the pendulum swing might be a little too violent (i.e., people having their lives and careers destroyed based solely on accusations).  To use an entirely inappropriate phrase to describe the situation, everybody needs to calm their tits a little bit.  The Harvey Weinsteins of the world need to have their lives destroyed.  There is enough evidence presented against him in the court of public opinion that he doesn't really deserve his day in court.  Same with Bill Cosby.  But this shit needs to end where one woman accuses a man of sexual harassment, and his career is destroyed without any proof or defense.  Otherwise, we have the equivalent of the Salem Witch Trials in reverse.  If said man is tried and convicted of said abuse, by all means, destroy his career/life (which, coincidentally, is where the "witch trials" comparison falls apart because the courts were in on it).  He's not worthy of it anyway.

 

[csb]

No doubt false accusations are awful. Any big movement has this kind of thing happen. I don't want this woman's actions, which are awful and illegal, to discredit every woman who has truthfully come forward about heinous things that happened to them. The tenor of the thread was "all women must be liars because this one is and women are only talking about assault because it's trendy."

 

[Violator]

It would be nice if they would actually charge the ones making false accusations.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

No doubt false accusations are awful. Any big movement has this kind of thing happen. I don't want this woman's actions, which are awful and illegal, to discredit every woman who has truthfully come forward about heinous things that happened to them. The tenor of the thread was "all women just be liars because this one is and women are only talking about assault because it's trendy."

My mind wandered and that previous post took a U-turn from my initial intent, which was to agree with you.  Stories like the ones posted in this thread expose hypocrisy of some individuals, but they shouldn't discredit the whole movement.

 

[MA_PE]

But people being people it's sometimes hard to distinguish between "abuse" or "harassment" and a consensual relationship gone sour.  there is always the case where women use their feminine wiles to manipulate a guy/situation to their own advantage and when/if it doesn't turnout as they planned, turn the tables and claim they are the victim.  This has been going on since the beginning of time because men are men and women are women and the sheep are glad for it.

 

[jeb6294]

For those who don't know, "me too" has been around since before there was such thing as a hashtag.  The problem, or what I see as the problem at least, is that the media has decided that a few celebrities are now the "face" of #metoo including, ironically, Asia Argento.  When Asia Argento is accused, the message from the face of #metoo is that we're supposed to leave her alone because we don't know the whole story.  Their stance has now become, fight sexual harassment, but only if it fits into our "girl power" agenda.

 

[Szar]

For those who don't know, "me too" has been around since before there was such thing as a hashtag.  The problem, or what I see as the problem at least, is that the media has decided that a few celebrities are now the "face" of #metoo including, ironically, Asia Argento.  When Asia Argento is accused, the message from the face of #metoo is that we're supposed to leave her alone because we don't know the whole story.  Their stance has now become, fight sexual harassment, but only if it fits into our "girl power" agenda.

This I think is an overall bigger issue then just the #metoo movement though.  In general, we assign pretty and marketable faces (male and female) to rally the common folk behind.  Then *que surprise*  we find out that the individual (whether it be a sports star, politician, religious leader, etc.) is revealed to be a mere mortal with skeletons in the closet and suddenly the entire movement becomes under question.

I have no idea who these women are.  I also don't care.  No one should have to suffer in the work place or in general from these acts so who cares if some random individual, even if it was one of the "founders" of the movement.  But perhaps its the human condition.  I know I was gleefully happy (albeit disappointed in myself) to see the hypocrisy in action and front stage.   

 

[goodal]

As Dleg said, mob mentality is my problem with this.  People with pitchforks and torches are rarely thinking rationally.  Yes, ANYONE that actually abuses or harasses someone else should be punished according to the severity of their infractions, but what we have seen over the last year (peoples lives ruined because of a twitter accusation) is wrong.

 

[Dleg]

Yes, and to clarify, if they are guilty then I agree their lives should be ruined. But they are entitled to same constitutional protections that anyone else is, first, and that includes the right to due process, a fair trial, and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. What we have been seeing is the opposite, and that is very dangerous.

 

[leggo PE]

Here is an interesting study that took a look at the rate of false accusations of sexual assault "at a major Northeastern university over a 10-year period". 

If you don't want to read the study, here is the abstract:

"One of the most controversial disputes affecting the discourse related to violence against women is the dispute about the frequency of false allegations of sexual assault. In an effort to add clarity to the discourse, published research on false allegations is critiqued, and the results of a new study described. All cases (N = 136) of sexual assault reported to a major Northeastern university over a 10-year period are analyzed to determine the percentage of false allegations. Of the 136 cases of sexual assault reported over the 10-year period, 8 (5.9%) are coded as false allegations. These results, taken in the context of an examination of previous research, indicate that the prevalence of false allegations is between 2% and 10%."