PE and Money

[I M A PE]

Ok. Based on the research I've done elsewhere and these replies, I'm convinced. It does appear I am seriously underpaid, by at least 15k or maybe 2x that amount.

any tips on how to bring this up then? As I mentioned, I work from home; however I do talk to my immediate supervisor about various projects almost daily, sometimes multiple times per day. I'll be visiting the home office (not where my direct supervisor is based, but where our department VP is based, as well as CEO et cetera) this week. We have some project work to talk about and were also just planning on generally catching up since we havent been in the same room together in 3 years. I was thinking that I'd broach this with supervisor early in the week by phone, mention that I'd like to have a discussion with VP while I'm in the office, and then bring it up in person when I'm with VP at the end of the week. (dont want to go over anyone's head, but supervisor doesnt really have a say in any $; he just makes recommendations based on my performance.)

Is this approach reasonable? How do I start the conversation? Should I put something in writing to list out my various reasons for thinking I am deserving of a significant increase?

I think that approach is perfectly reasonable. I think you start it just as you describe. Confident, matter of fact, but not cocky. You know you're worth more, they know you're worth more, you'd like to discuss it. That's simple and very professional. They may not be willing to pay you more and you have to understand that ultimately you cannot convince them to pony up. All you can do is state your case, calmly, cooly, and confidently. They will do what they will. If they don't pony up, you know what your options are and you get to choose which one's you'll explore.

Your employer owns your job. You own your career.

 

[I M A PE]

Colleagues-- Let me share some ideas that may be of benefit to each of you-- we work this question hard with many of our clients when they seek executive coaching-- something that we do, very well!

It is only natural to want more money, especially when you pass the PE exam, hear a colleague share what he/she is making, etc. Engineers are naturally a non confrontational bunch, so wanting to "argue" or "get in to a 'tough conversation' is not natural for an engineer! It is not.

If you think that you are underpaid-- get some data-- data does not lie and engineers can understand data. OK, where? Well, the web is a good place to start. NSPE put out a salary survey last year that is cut and diced about 200 different ways. See what the market is bearing your particular locale. You need to have a rich gameplan to present BEFORE you broach this question with your immediate supervisor.

Location, type of work, office culture/envirionment, responsibility, degrees, certifications, registration (maybe multiple states) are all factors that you need to review and analyze, in spreadsheet format. The numbers are available, you just have to go find them.

The working from home ability is worth a lot to many people. Sure, you may be making less than someone else, however, having the freedom and flexibility to be at home is worth LOTS to many people. Don't forget that. Now, if you want to go back to the cubicle farm with a boss Like Dilbert's, well, then, that may be the price for receiving more money!

We strongly recommend that you burnish your resume up and float it. Take some interviews and see what the area has to offer. Now, you may get an offer. If you do, then you need to think real hard about the offer as well as going to talk to your boss. We always recommend that you talk to the boss to see what he/she is willing to do to accommodate the new offer. However, if you like the culture, environment, projects, colleagues that you are working with, it may be much different at a new place. That is a point to consider.

Money is usually about 5th down on the list of wants/needs for an employee. A stimulating, challenging work environment, great equipment and freedom are all factors that most folks desire more than just pure money.

Rest assured that if you are making $65K and like what you do and are offered $124K and are stressed out, frazzled and hate to get up in the morning, irrespective of kicking the dog and kissing the spouse, you will wish that you kept the $65K job. Trust me, I have been there!

The idea to "go hang out a shingle and take some clients" sounds great-- of course, as a professional engineer, it is a violation of engineering ethics to 'take other clients', just a point to consider The "hanging out a shingle" is much more complicated than it sounds-- oh, I know, it looks easy and simple. Trust me, nothing could be farther from the truth-- we consult in that area as well.

Changing companies and moving can be stimulating for some and super stressful for others-- something else to consider. If you like change and thrive in chaos, go for it. If you prefer steady and forward, moving might be perplexing-- again, something to consider.

Questions, just ask.

I agree with almost all of this except for 2 points. It's my personal opinion that you should not ever go to your current employer with a competing offer to use it as a negotiating tool. If you do, and if you stay in your current job, you have tipped your hand that you're looking and unless your boss is a moron, he's going to start figuring out how to live without you (i.e. replace you) because you have told him you have one foot out the door already. There is a chance that he won't but do you really want to be looking over your shoulder for months or years? If business goes south and they have to lay off a few engineers, are you going to worry that you're on the top of the list?

I very much like the idea of having an offer in your pocket but I wouldn't disclose it. IF you have it, then it gives you the upper hand in negotiations even though your boss isn't even aware of it. You will be willing to say "that's not good enough you've got my two weeks notice" if they won't budge. If you're willing to say it, then you are already better prepared for negotiation. You won't hem and haw or settle for some measly 3% attaboy that you really won't be happy with. You'll walk into the room knowing exactly what you are willing to accept and what you won't. You'll have the power that comes with having a choice. If you walk in there without so much as having your resume floating around with recruiters, then what choice will you have but to accepts 3%.... or 0%?

Secondly, also IMO (but from experience), if you have established contacts and can find one or two good clients, it certainly not impossible to strike out on your own. Intimidating? Yes. Risky? Maybe. Riskier than withering on the vine at a $65k job where your company is billing $250k? Maybe not. That's up to you but (from experience) it certainly isn't impossible. And while it would be unethical to use information that you learned on the job against your employer and unethical/illegal to break any non-compete agreements that you have, it certainly IS NOT unethical to compete (as long as you're not under a non-compete) and not unethical to reach out to contacts that you have made along the way. Just be sure to not walk out the door with any proprietary information.

 

[I M A PE]

It would hurt to go back to the cube farm but as I see it, I could probably get a pretty cushy 9-5 government job at my current salary-one where I wouldnt be working weekends and where I could actually go out after work for drinks from time to time. That doesn't happen in my current consulting environment. I'm starting to think I've made too many concessions on the work at home thing, and now its time to stop feeling guilty and start asserting myself more.

And you'd probably have a good pension plan after 20 years on that cushy government job. Honestly, I'm not hearing a whole lot of reasons for you not to be looking. Not one except "it's easy to stay put". I've been there. I think everybody has. But I also don't know anybody who didn't eventually move on and say "I should have left sooner".

I've had my ups and downs. I've had the $140k job where I was frazzled and essentially on call 24/7 as a VP of engineering. I should have left that job two years before I did. I ended up at a job in a different engineering field and as a result dropping to $75k. I am a thousand times happier and moving back up quickly. If I've learned nothing else, I've learned when to recognize the signs that it's time to move on. If you're asking yourself the questions you're asking, it's time to be looking.

 

[JoeyPinoy]

Folks, there is no money in the PE. It is how it is and that is the bottom line. If you are doing it for the money you are up for a rude awakening. Saying something different is just a sales pitch.

I respectfully disagree. There is great money to be made in engineering. And the work is very rewarding IMO. It's all about what you think you are worth and convincing your employer of this accordingly. You're only worth what you settle for in getting paid by your employer. Want a higher wage? Then you have to go get it and make it happen! I've more than doubled my salary since I graduated from my undergraduate program. And that did not happen by staying put in my first engineering position.

I see both sides. On one hand, choosing a profession based on salary considerations is both practical and to be expected. For instance, the relatively low salaries offered to elementary school teachers is a constraint to attracting top talent. The upper middle class salaries offered by the engineering profession is a blessing, all things considered.

On the other hand, if your consideration is ONLY to make as much money as humanly possible, I'd suggest becoming an entrepreneur or get in the profession of managing OPM (other people's money). In other words, survey the Forbes 400 (href='http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/list/)%C2'> emulate the people featured.

 

[############01]

Regarding most recent comments about engineering salary. I see engineering as a very common sense choice for someone with a restrained risk tolerance-the typical engineering personality! I chose engineering not to get rich, but to provide a reliably comfortable salary. I have 2 siblings, one a public school teacher (summers off), and one a 'musician' who has a rock star life. I've made sacrifices as part of a calculated life strategy. I work longer and harder than my siblings, and did so in college also (I would expect most people recognize that the engineering curriculum is tougher than say, the teaching curriculum). I work longer hours, and I have less 'fun' in the course of my day than my siblings. They have less stress. They payoff is I make more money. Not bags of money. Just more money, and reliably, consistently. My siblings are also intelligent, but they chose a different route based on different values and priorities.

Regarding the main topic at hand, I really, really appreciate the feedback I've received in this forum. I was actually in home office last week and had a rare opportunity to sit down with my group's VP to discuss general state of things (a number of things really). I let her know directly that I wanted to discuss salary adjustment, and she was totally expecting it. I gave her a number ($85k) and her comment was that they may not be able to get me all the way there, but they might be able to get me close with a combo of raise/bonus and other perks. I need to discuss with my direct report but there are a number of things going on at my company right now that complicate things. Still, mid-year review time is around the corner, typical raise time, so the conversation wont fall flat with a "let me think about it." I will come back with a report when something actually happens, but that is where we left it. I at least feel better that I have proactively addressed it and put a number out there.

 

[StarPE]

thats good to hear! I wish you luck. for me, i'm going to have to move to get what I want

 

[I M A PE]

Regarding most recent comments about engineering salary. I see engineering as a very common sense choice for someone with a restrained risk tolerance-the typical engineering personality! I chose engineering not to get rich, but to provide a reliably comfortable salary. I have 2 siblings, one a public school teacher (summers off), and one a 'musician' who has a rock star life. I've made sacrifices as part of a calculated life strategy. I work longer and harder than my siblings, and did so in college also (I would expect most people recognize that the engineering curriculum is tougher than say, the teaching curriculum). I work longer hours, and I have less 'fun' in the course of my day than my siblings. They have less stress. They payoff is I make more money. Not bags of money. Just more money, and reliably, consistently. My siblings are also intelligent, but they chose a different route based on different values and priorities.

Regarding the main topic at hand, I really, really appreciate the feedback I've received in this forum. I was actually in home office last week and had a rare opportunity to sit down with my group's VP to discuss general state of things (a number of things really). I let her know directly that I wanted to discuss salary adjustment, and she was totally expecting it. I gave her a number ($85k) and her comment was that they may not be able to get me all the way there, but they might be able to get me close with a combo of raise/bonus and other perks. I need to discuss with my direct report but there are a number of things going on at my company right now that complicate things. Still, mid-year review time is around the corner, typical raise time, so the conversation wont fall flat with a "let me think about it." I will come back with a report when something actually happens, but that is where we left it. I at least feel better that I have proactively addressed it and put a number out there.

Very good work. It's good to set your expectations prior to the review, like you have, so that they have time to consider and cannot make excuses as you've pointed out. You've also set the bar for your expectation and it sounds like they value you and will work with you. Your VP did two things and taken together, they are positive, IMO. First, she said that they'd try. Second, she managed your expectations to make it clear there were no promises. The first is clearly positive. The second is not a negative. It's a normal part of negotiation it's her job to keep her options open so they can consider. Good stuff. I'm a big believer is taking small wins at every opportunity for a raise, if you can get an extra 0.5% just because you asked for it, it'll add up over time. The magic of compounding works for raises too, not just the stock market and credit card debt.

 

[cajone5]

Secondly, also IMO (but from experience), if you have established contacts and can find one or two good clients, it certainly not impossible to strike out on your own. Intimidating? Yes. Risky? Maybe. Riskier than withering on the vine at a $65k job where your company is billing $250k? Maybe not. That's up to you but (from experience) it certainly isn't impossible. And while it would be unethical to use information that you learned on the job against your employer and unethical/illegal to break any non-compete agreements that you have, it certainly IS NOT unethical to compete (as long as you're not under a non-compete) and not unethical to reach out to contacts that you have made along the way. Just be sure to not walk out the door with any proprietary information.

Regarding a non-compete contract... it's only worth what they pay you to sign it. In most cases this is typically $0. So they can pretty much be disregarded when you terminate your employment. As long as you are not doing anything unethical (ex: bad mouthing your previous employer, stealing company software/codes/reference/etc. or some other silly thing) you cannot be held to the non-compete. How can someone tell you that you cannot work without compensating you for it? In short, they cannot. Yes there is a very small chance your previous employer may decide to go to litigation over it but the simple fact is countless cases stand as precedent and the end takeaway is "a non-compete is only worth what they pay you to sign it".

Keep this in mind when considering forging your own path and being your own boss. Your employer will try to hold it over your head but you can sleep soundly knowing this simple fact.

 

[JB66money]

I work at a utility, I make decent pay, but I don't feel appreciated. I have been working with the company for over 5 years and I have not been promoted from an entry level engineering position. I worked 2 years in one department in which I felt appreciated, but I was involuntarily transferred to another department in which I worked for three years. I passed the FE on the first attempt in October 2010 and I just passed the PE exam on the first attempt this April 2014. I took the PE exam to prove to myself that I am a competent engineer. I just recently voluntarily transferred to another department within my company after three years of working in the second department. However, I still don't feel appreciated although I now have my PE and no one in my new department has theirs including my supervisor. My former supervisor was a verbally abusive micro-manager, who does not evaluate his employees fairly. Everyone in his group does the same amount and kind of work regardless of a person's experience. There was a time in which I was the only entry level engineer in my former department and I did not receive any training. I taught myself everything that I needed to know in order to do my job because my former supervisor would get angry if I ask him question. Within one year I was able to do all of my essential duties without any help, but even after three years I still did not get a promotion. So far even with 5 years of experience and learning a lot and now passing the PE exam, I am still an entry level engineer. I am considering looking for another job outside of the utility industry.​

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[Ship Wreck PE]

I think all jobs kinda sux in one way or another.

I know mine has its days.

The grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill

 

[Lumber Jim]

I think all jobs kinda sux in one way or another.

I know mine has its days.

The grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill

ahhh, but sometimes it is... if you are willing to accept what you stated and acknowledge that some places do actually suck less.

 

[cajone5]

@JB66money

I was in the same boat. 2+ years pre-grad experience (internships, co-ops and summer jobs in grad school). 5 years post-grad experience. FE, PE and SE (exam passed... still waiting on IL to process my paperwork... 6 months and counting)... BSCE, MSCE half-way through Ph.D.

Up until 6 months ago I was still an entry level employee. Fortunately at my yearly review they asked us to write a "cover letter" describing what we do and requesting promotion if you think it's warranted. I requested a promotion to 2 levels above my current (at the time) position. This allowed me an easy opportunity to express my opinion on my skills and abilities and where I though I best fit in the company. After discussing with my boss(es) and hearing their side, I was promoted one level and given about a 9% raise. Now I'm happier but I'm still not happy. Fortunately, I have made it clear what I want and where I believe I am qualified to be. They only held me back for one reason and that was something that is out of my control unfortunately. If I am still here in a year and I do not get promoted, I will be leaving. It's not worth being undervalued. You should seek an employer who values your skills and abilities and wants to see you grow and succeed. If they selfishly hold you back to get cheap labor it's time to get out.

My advice is find a way to discuss and explain to them where you think you should be (based on education, experience, licenses, responsibility, etc.). Maybe they're oblivious? Maybe they're so mired down in other things they haven't given it much thought? Maybe there are budget or organizational issues that can't accommodate a promotion for you? Maybe they're awful human beings who hate you and want to hold you back? Who knows? Until you discuss this with them, you can only make assumptions about their motives. Start the conversation and see where it takes you. Just be prepared with reasons why you deserve a promotion. Being around for a long time isn't worth much. Added responsibility, education, licenses, etc. hold much more weight in this type of discussion than time spent.

Good luck.

 

[E2R41L]

Mike, you ever get that bump you were looking for?

 

[NJmike PE]

I did. over the summer I went in and asked for a raise and got a 4% pay bump. That coupled with the initial 3% raise put me at 7% increase for the year. I figure to get a pay bump in December too just based on the past.

 

[iwire]

I did. over the summer I went in and asked for a raise and got a 4% pay bump. That coupled with the initial 3% raise put me at 7% increase for the year. I figure to get a pay bump in December too just based on the past.

good for you...don't under short sale you.

 

[Ivory]

The best way to know your true value is to float your resume in the market. See what bites. You may wind up with an offer you cannot resist. Why settle for the crumbs your present employer throws your way?

 

[Ships]

Bumpity Bump.

Admin, Shouldn't this be moved to the Anything about the PE exam section?

Any updates on raises people received? I work for the Government so they don't really care haha

 

[CE_Gator]

Mo money mo problems

 

[CE_Gator]

Bumpity Bump.

Admin, Shouldn't this be moved to the Anything about the PE exam section?

Any updates on raises people received? I work for the Government so they don't really care haha

I work for a publicly owned utility which is highly unionized. There are no pay raises for getting you PE or other certifications or getting more education. They only give raises according to seniority and time with the company. So you have people that just have a high school degree with no other certifications or training that have been with the company for 15 to 20 years making more than an engineer with a Masters and several certifications with 5 to 10 years experience.

 

[electricalPickles PE]

Bumpity Bump.

Admin, Shouldn't this be moved to the Anything about the PE exam section?

Any updates on raises people received? I work for the Government so they don't really care haha

I work for a publicly owned utility which is highly unionized. There are no pay raises for getting you PE or other certifications or getting more education. They only give raises according to seniority and time with the company. So you have people that just have a high school degree with no other certifications or training that have been with the company for 15 to 20 years making more than an engineer with a Masters and several certifications with 5 to 10 years experience.

Whaaaaaaaaat? That makes no sense, they don't even consider qualifications? I'd probably get out of there as soon as possible. I can't believe a publicly owned utility would do this, I know quite a few and none of them are even remotely similar to this!