PE and Money

[I M A PE]

That rule for 5%-7% a year is crap. That is a convenient excuse to tell employees who are underpaid. If your responsibilities and qualifications grow over the years, there is no way that 7% can keep up with both inflation and market value for a top performer. I don't think you'd be laughed out of the room for asking for $90k. In fact, that's what I'd go in with asking for. Just keep in mind that it might be close to the very max they have in the budget for you and you have the convenience of working from home. Maybe if you walk out of there with $75k-$80k everybody wins. Here's why I say screw the percentages, keep the discussion about absolute $ in your situation:

If you're 80% billable at $140, that's about $225k in revenue for your company. Your salary and benefits are probably costing MAX 50% above your salary. If you're making $90k, you cost them no more than $135k a year. They're making 67% margin on your time. Yes, they have some overhead but that's a lot of margin. At your current $60k salary the margin is 150%! And they can only manage a 7% raise? B.S. Dude, if they won't give you more, strike out on your own, hang your shingle. Take clients away from them and charge $90/hour. You'll keep working from home and if you keep billing 80% of your time, you'll make $144k a year AND if you keep your clients happy, you'll be able to raise your rates. Or... start looking for another job. Seriously... a P.E. making <$75k is hard for me to wrap my head around, especially one being billed out at $140/hour.

What field are you in?

 

[StarPE]

man, i would be grateful to receive 10-15k. my last 3% raise had me all sorts of confused. my job role/title shd command at least 25k more. Now that I have my PE, I will be evaluating my options. Congrats to those that passed AND have received compensation

 

[Predgw]

I'm looking at a 6% raise if approved. However I was recently( within the last year) promoted due to outstanding evaluations so that was another 6% increase, so I'm pretty happy with just over 12% in a year.

 

[############01]

good info and perspectives, thanks everyone. i tend to undervalue myself in many areas of life....maybe its time to be more of a dude (sorry, gender stereotype)

I'm enviro. Mostly compliance, with some remediation and phase 2 work and an occasional phase I. Clients are mostly private equity types, some big industrial accounts, almost no gov't work

 

[Ivory]

I am still just under the 60k mark and just passed. I work from home but for a medium sized firm. I am a "senior engineer", manage multiple projects and do mostly project work (80% billable which is really good at my firm) , but also sell an amount that puts me in probably the second or third tier of sales people in the company. My firm's employee pool is <10% PEs; there aren't many. I'm also just a really hard worker, other than during PE results week (heehee).

That said, now that the PE license will soon be a reality (I already sent the check on Tuesday, right after I saw that little green PASS), I am wondering what will be a reasonable but aggressive request. I'd like to pre-empt them coming to me. Based on past experience, my boss usually comes to me with a big thanks/congratulations about mid-year, tells me how great he thinks I am, and then tells me that based on my stellar performance he's gotten me a raise....but then the actual raise turns out to be pretty unimpressive, in the 4-6% range. I have been given the strong impression that this amount is at the top end of the raises that others in the company get-most havent been getting raises at all, and those who do get a raise are maxing out at 5-7%.

As a side story: I have a good friend with a couple years more experience than me, who used to work at my firm in the same capacity as me, at about the same salary level (slightly higher due to the experience). He doesnt have an engineering degree, let alone a PE, but he does similar work. He was (self-admittedly) lazy in college but is very sharp. He interviewed with a competitor two years ago and they then asked him salary requirements. He walked out the door and into the new firm with just under $90k. Now he is making six figures. That makes me hope I can ask for 20% or more without being laughed at.....the only thing is that I think my firm feels they have some leverage because they know how much I value working at home, and I will probably not be able to set that up somewhere else (not right off the bat, at least)

- Recent engineering college grads with no experience are getting 60K +

- 5-7% pay raise when your salary is low is not much. Do not forget that working from home saves the employer office space and other costs.

- If you have a PE and I am assuming you have 5 + years experience, then you need to be asking for $100K at the minimum. By accepting a low salary you not only short change yourself but hurt the salaries of other engineers. My advice is to not give away your services at a cheap price.

 

[qiudogcool]

I have almost 3 years of experience, a MS degree in EE, I am making about 66K . Does this seem fair?

Are you mostly paid hourly or salary? I am paid hourly. I am a communications engineer. How many hours do you work every week on average? I plant to take PE this October and hopefully apply for the license next fall.

 

[crunchercrunch]

I have almost 3 years of experience, a MS degree in EE, I am making about 66K . Does this seem fair?

Are you mostly paid hourly or salary? I am paid hourly. I am a communications engineer. How many hours do you work every week on average? I plant to take PE this October and hopefully apply for the license next fall.

you're getting shafted. i have a BS and am making more than that. grab your pitchfork dude you deserve more

 

[qiudogcool]

How many years of experience do you have?

 

[crunchercrunch]

i had about 1.5 when i got the bump to my current level

 

[iwire]

I just started with the company like less than a year ago but I did get my raise 4-5% raise on my 6 months into the company ..back in Nov, 2013..I started in Apr, 2013 but typically from past exp you don't raise until at least 1 year. i passed my PE on Thursday, my boss told me, I get an instant bump of 5% effective June 1, 2014. Also, I will look out for the year Oct-Nov 2014 review ..hopefully 7%-10%...would be nice since I fulfilled my goals LOL

But man...some of you guys are making way too low for PE...even in smaller town

oh...my old company offering me a job since found out my passing of PE

 

[Ivory]

If engineers are required to take a negotiation class in college, their salaries will be much higher. The problem we have is engineers do not understand their true value and settle for less. The only reason lawyers and real estate agents command high salaries/commissions is because they know how to negotiate and not the value they bring.

Engineers bring "true" value. They deserve to be compensated as such. In today's market, it is not what you are worth, it is more like what you can negotiate. If we as engineers learn the negotiation skill then we will be valued appropriately and command the high salaries we deserve.

 

[############01]

Ok. Based on the research I've done elsewhere and these replies, I'm convinced. It does appear I am seriously underpaid, by at least 15k or maybe 2x that amount.

any tips on how to bring this up then? As I mentioned, I work from home; however I do talk to my immediate supervisor about various projects almost daily, sometimes multiple times per day. I'll be visiting the home office (not where my direct supervisor is based, but where our department VP is based, as well as CEO et cetera) this week. We have some project work to talk about and were also just planning on generally catching up since we havent been in the same room together in 3 years. I was thinking that I'd broach this with supervisor early in the week by phone, mention that I'd like to have a discussion with VP while I'm in the office, and then bring it up in person when I'm with VP at the end of the week. (dont want to go over anyone's head, but supervisor doesnt really have a say in any $; he just makes recommendations based on my performance.)

Is this approach reasonable? How do I start the conversation? Should I put something in writing to list out my various reasons for thinking I am deserving of a significant increase?

 

[iwire]

Actually someone told me before, if required to go out find a job, went through the whole interview process so you could counteroffer to your present company, then it's time to move on...

my first job, everyone that I worked with was really good. I learned a lot during the process but I was way underpaid, but I ended up stay way too long that I expected...after I left that company in good term, my salary has almost 3 times within 6-7 years time frame

 

[Ship Wreck PE]

Ok. Based on the research I've done elsewhere and these replies, I'm convinced. It does appear I am seriously underpaid, by at least 15k or maybe 2x that amount.

any tips on how to bring this up then? As I mentioned, I work from home; however I do talk to my immediate supervisor about various projects almost daily, sometimes multiple times per day. I'll be visiting the home office (not where my direct supervisor is based, but where our department VP is based, as well as CEO et cetera) this week. We have some project work to talk about and were also just planning on generally catching up since we havent been in the same room together in 3 years. I was thinking that I'd broach this with supervisor early in the week by phone, mention that I'd like to have a discussion with VP while I'm in the office, and then bring it up in person when I'm with VP at the end of the week. (dont want to go over anyone's head, but supervisor doesnt really have a say in any $; he just makes recommendations based on my performance.)

Is this approach reasonable? How do I start the conversation? Should I put something in writing to list out my various reasons for thinking I am deserving of a significant increase?

I sent out an email to CEO and copied president and direct supervisor. I asked for am employee evaluation meeting, and they all knew what was going on. Got 20% and 4 weeks vacation.

 

[Predgw]

Wow, 20% raise. Where were you at?

Where do you live?

Geography has a lot to do with pay scales.

 

[solomonb]

Colleagues-- Let me share some ideas that may be of benefit to each of you-- we work this question hard with many of our clients when they seek executive coaching-- something that we do, very well!

It is only natural to want more money, especially when you pass the PE exam, hear a colleague share what he/she is making, etc. Engineers are naturally a non confrontational bunch, so wanting to "argue" or "get in to a 'tough conversation' is not natural for an engineer! It is not.

If you think that you are underpaid-- get some data-- data does not lie and engineers can understand data. OK, where? Well, the web is a good place to start. NSPE put out a salary survey last year that is cut and diced about 200 different ways. See what the market is bearing your particular locale. You need to have a rich gameplan to present BEFORE you broach this question with your immediate supervisor.

Location, type of work, office culture/envirionment, responsibility, degrees, certifications, registration (maybe multiple states) are all factors that you need to review and analyze, in spreadsheet format. The numbers are available, you just have to go find them.

The working from home ability is worth a lot to many people. Sure, you may be making less than someone else, however, having the freedom and flexibility to be at home is worth LOTS to many people. Don't forget that. Now, if you want to go back to the cubicle farm with a boss Like Dilbert's, well, then, that may be the price for receiving more money!

We strongly recommend that you burnish your resume up and float it. Take some interviews and see what the area has to offer. Now, you may get an offer. If you do, then you need to think real hard about the offer as well as going to talk to your boss. We always recommend that you talk to the boss to see what he/she is willing to do to accommodate the new offer. However, if you like the culture, environment, projects, colleagues that you are working with, it may be much different at a new place. That is a point to consider.

Money is usually about 5th down on the list of wants/needs for an employee. A stimulating, challenging work environment, great equipment and freedom are all factors that most folks desire more than just pure money.

Rest assured that if you are making $65K and like what you do and are offered $124K and are stressed out, frazzled and hate to get up in the morning, irrespective of kicking the dog and kissing the spouse, you will wish that you kept the $65K job. Trust me, I have been there!

The idea to "go hang out a shingle and take some clients" sounds great-- of course, as a professional engineer, it is a violation of engineering ethics to 'take other clients', just a point to consider The "hanging out a shingle" is much more complicated than it sounds-- oh, I know, it looks easy and simple. Trust me, nothing could be farther from the truth-- we consult in that area as well.

Changing companies and moving can be stimulating for some and super stressful for others-- something else to consider. If you like change and thrive in chaos, go for it. If you prefer steady and forward, moving might be perplexing-- again, something to consider.

Questions, just ask.

 

[############01]

you know, i was thinking about this more today as i was out for a run. and I think i may have given a false impression about the work at home thing. It has definite perks but I wouldnt say I have much 'flexibility.' I am still expected to be online during all working hours and we have constant IM communication so I'm essentially watched from 7am to 5pm. If the neighbor stops by I don't answer the door, because it might end up for me being away from my desk long enough that my screen blows up and my phone has 16 messages. And I rarely work less than a 10 hour day; frequently its a 12 hour day. I also travel quite a bit. My typical week is 60 hours plus (salary, no overtime here). So yeah, I don't have a commute, and I don't have to wear a suit. But its not like I'm taking afternoon naps or doing laundry or taking 2 hour lunches. If anything, since I left the office 3 years ago to start working from home, I work harder and longer.

It would hurt to go back to the cube farm but as I see it, I could probably get a pretty cushy 9-5 government job at my current salary-one where I wouldnt be working weekends and where I could actually go out after work for drinks from time to time. That doesn't happen in my current consulting environment. I'm starting to think I've made too many concessions on the work at home thing, and now its time to stop feeling guilty and start asserting myself more.

 

[solomonb]

Yes, academic research confirms that you work longer and harder at home. Part of it is the "guilt" complex and part of it is what you state, "they are watching me." That sucks, however, that is the way your company seems to work. Working from home has some real advantages, including doing the laundry, talking to the neighbor and wearing PJ's all day, however, if the leash is so tight that none of that is possible, then you have to decide if it is worth it.

Float your resume, do some research, see what the market will bear and go for it. When you get a new offer, have a chat with the pointy haired boss, (Dilbert's boss). See what he says. If you don't like the answer, pull the rip cord and jump to the new opportunity. No reason to wait around-- pull the rip cord and go. Might be the best thing that ever happened to you.

 

[cali78]

You have to look out for number 1, nobody will. Companies play many games to keep engineer's salaries low, such as creating no poaching agreements with other companies. Look at the class action lawsuit against Google and Apple which cost them $324 million for playing games with engineer's salaries. I think engineer's should avoid working for companies that play games to keep engineer's salaries suppressed.

 

[Thomasee]

These companies should understand better. The US is a free market system. Our economic system is capitalism, not socialism. Companies that are suppressing engineer's wages by secretly having agreements not to poach or other methods should not be let off so easy with a small fine. $324 million is too small a fine for hurting the engineering profession.