Ken PE 3.1
It's wacky waving inflatable arm flailing tube man
Still waiting for the talk from my boss...
Pay Raise?
- Thread starter steve1997
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Help Support Professional Engineer & PE Exam Forum:
Seems like a lot of people are in a billing-based revenue generation situation so I'll put in my 2 cents here. Most corporate engineers on salary which bill out I've seen get about 20-40% of what they bill. Here's some simple math with a lot of "engineering" assumptions. Assume: 52 weeks/year * 40 billable hours/week = 2080 hours/year; Billing rate = $100/hour; Employee Salary = $65,000/year
Total Revenue = 2080 hours/year * $100/hour = $208,000/year
Employee Take Out Rate = $65,000/year / $208,000/year = 31%
Throw some benefits and employment taxes on top of that so the employee percentage grows a bit (not by a lot). Also the $100/hour for a licensed engineer is on the lower side, but plausible depending on your COL and services. Also, being 100% utilitized year-round is a surefire way to burn out especially if your work is highly technical in nature. Figure 10-15 hours on top of that for administrative tasks so you're looking at 50-55hrs/week total with the above assumptions. Here are the key takeaways and Q's to ask yourself:
1) How much is your billing rate?
2) How much value are you adding to your organization with the PE? Ex: Giving your firm more credibility and exposure are difficult to assign $ amounts too, but should factor in as well.
3) How much are your peers billing and what is their take out rate?
This is an objective view biased towards the $ amount so it doesn't factor in other items such as:
1) Work environment (e.g. coworkers, workload, etc.)
2) Personal gratification from work (do you feel awesome at the end of the day?)
If you fall substantially outside of the range of your peers under the same billing rate, your company is not willing to compromise, and the work environment is terrible then...well, it's time to start reassessing your career/job opportunities. Otherwise if you add absolutely no value...well, you don't have grounds to increase your take home unless your employer is really understanding.
From experience, these sorts of back of the envelope calculations are also pretty handy for project planning/timeline. Good for watching burn rates on project teams before invoicing. Also good if a client approaches you and offers a fixed cost for a project and determining if things are feasible given your desired hourly rates. The employer-employee relationship is a two way street. It's a fragile relationship, and ultimately the contract must benefit both parties adequately (although unfortunately it's usually biased towards the employer).
Some food for thought, hope this helps someone out there. I'm also a pretty young guy so take the above with a grain of salt and make your own, informed decisions.
Total Revenue = 2080 hours/year * $100/hour = $208,000/year
Employee Take Out Rate = $65,000/year / $208,000/year = 31%
Throw some benefits and employment taxes on top of that so the employee percentage grows a bit (not by a lot). Also the $100/hour for a licensed engineer is on the lower side, but plausible depending on your COL and services. Also, being 100% utilitized year-round is a surefire way to burn out especially if your work is highly technical in nature. Figure 10-15 hours on top of that for administrative tasks so you're looking at 50-55hrs/week total with the above assumptions. Here are the key takeaways and Q's to ask yourself:
1) How much is your billing rate?
2) How much value are you adding to your organization with the PE? Ex: Giving your firm more credibility and exposure are difficult to assign $ amounts too, but should factor in as well.
3) How much are your peers billing and what is their take out rate?
This is an objective view biased towards the $ amount so it doesn't factor in other items such as:
1) Work environment (e.g. coworkers, workload, etc.)
2) Personal gratification from work (do you feel awesome at the end of the day?)
If you fall substantially outside of the range of your peers under the same billing rate, your company is not willing to compromise, and the work environment is terrible then...well, it's time to start reassessing your career/job opportunities. Otherwise if you add absolutely no value...well, you don't have grounds to increase your take home unless your employer is really understanding.
From experience, these sorts of back of the envelope calculations are also pretty handy for project planning/timeline. Good for watching burn rates on project teams before invoicing. Also good if a client approaches you and offers a fixed cost for a project and determining if things are feasible given your desired hourly rates. The employer-employee relationship is a two way street. It's a fragile relationship, and ultimately the contract must benefit both parties adequately (although unfortunately it's usually biased towards the employer).
Some food for thought, hope this helps someone out there. I'm also a pretty young guy so take the above with a grain of salt and make your own, informed decisions.
Also consider the benefits of being on salary versus hourly or other options (ex: you get what you bill and all of the stress which comes with that). Factor in overhead operating costs for your organization as well. Publicly traded versus private also matters. Some other items to consider. Wanted to throw those in above, but knocked it out pretty quick and semi-asleep still (I start my days pretty early).
Kovz
Chasing Dreams
I have a written letter (documentation) from our GM that I will receive a 5% raise once I pass the PE. I also received the same amount for passing the FE earlier in 2014. I'm fairly happy with my salary now, so I'm ok with the 5% increase. I know it will open doors for advancement with my current company and future job opportunities.
Be careful when interviewing to not let too much disgust with your current employer spill out in the interview-I'm sure you are just venting here- that's why we are here right?!
I got nada- nein- nothing- except "we are so proud of you!!!" and they are using my newly minted PE as marketing, gave me a new title on papers for marketing only- but really I got it good- I've been in bad situations before- and although I started with this company at 7% less than my previous company 1.5 yrs ago, I have a great job. And as long as my job duties do not dramatically change, I'm happy. I live in a very rural area, and job openings are very hard to come by, so I better get happy wit it.
On a side note- I got my license in a state where my previous employer was going to relocate me to because the office in a neighboring state where I was working was going to close (bad economy they said, I suspect the issue is deeper as I've watched 2 of their offices close). Then they opted to not let me move to the other state- instead I lost my job- after I had applied for the PE in the neighboring state. I had a recommendation letter get lost- (who was an employee of said firm) which delayed further my application and I missed the exam deadline to take it when I was eligible. So here I am in the same state, with a new out-of-state license, and my company will not give anything until I have the license in my current state. So more paperwork is coming....but then I will get between a 5 and 10%, and after 2 yrs, I get a small %age (35% or so) of my expenses back from the PE books exam fee etc.
But again, my job duties are easy, and I have little to no pressure- I work hard when I need to, get it done and move to something else, so my life is simple when work loads slack up. I was told when I was hired to not worry about being billable- 'that was my boss' job'- but I am concerned as I know how billable works. Not too worried, but bummed I didn't get part of the raise now and part when I am licensed in my state. I tried to barter, but failed miserably. I might get new business cards though yippie!! (doing a little dance while tossing my cards in the air like a zillionaire tossing
arty-smiley-048: one dollar bills)
On a side note- I got my license in a state where my previous employer was going to relocate me to because the office in a neighboring state where I was working was going to close (bad economy they said, I suspect the issue is deeper as I've watched 2 of their offices close). Then they opted to not let me move to the other state- instead I lost my job- after I had applied for the PE in the neighboring state. I had a recommendation letter get lost- (who was an employee of said firm) which delayed further my application and I missed the exam deadline to take it when I was eligible. So here I am in the same state, with a new out-of-state license, and my company will not give anything until I have the license in my current state. So more paperwork is coming....but then I will get between a 5 and 10%, and after 2 yrs, I get a small %age (35% or so) of my expenses back from the PE books exam fee etc.
But again, my job duties are easy, and I have little to no pressure- I work hard when I need to, get it done and move to something else, so my life is simple when work loads slack up. I was told when I was hired to not worry about being billable- 'that was my boss' job'- but I am concerned as I know how billable works. Not too worried, but bummed I didn't get part of the raise now and part when I am licensed in my state. I tried to barter, but failed miserably. I might get new business cards though yippie!! (doing a little dance while tossing my cards in the air like a zillionaire tossing
arty-smiley-048: one dollar bills)
DanHalen
Well-known member
Right! On my last interview it was very difficult to keep my disgust for my current employer from spilling over. There was an article I read somewhere last fall that was talking about today's job market. In my parents generation they worked pretty much one job and retired. Now days it's common to change jobs every 2 - 5 years. The article said people don't leave companies, they leave bad managers. I can so relate to that article. I'm not really wanting to leave the "company." I just want to get away from these horrible people I have to work with. It's dog eat dog around here and people are stabbing each other in the back like crazy. It was a great place to work until a few years ago and since then it's been awful. We're starting to see some turnover which historically has been very low. There are people watching every move I make and they write down the time I come in and when I leave (if anyone is still around that time of night). My co-workers boss is more concerned about what other people does than his own job. He's always slipping around spying on me. I've caught him numerous times and confronted him but it doesn't do any good. He and my boss are real tight so anything I say or do to him gets right back to my boss. Management backs them up so I'm in a lose-lose situation no matter what I do.
The problem I've been having lately with trying to get another job is that I don't have experience in certain areas so I get rejected. For example, I apply for a job with a city's stormwater department as a project manager. They state they want 5 years of experience + PE. Even though I do sanitary sewer designs all day everyday and have a strong water resources background, almost all of them turn me down. One job I got turned down for earlier this week was with a municipality doing the same job I'm doing right now. They turned me down because I didn't have roadway design experience. WTF? No where in their job description did it say anything about roadway design. I've been applying for both public and private sector. I usually get rejection notices or an interview with the public side but nada for the private sector.
blondebedhead
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[SIZE=10.5pt]I have interviewed with other firms four different times over the last decade only to stay with my employer because they always make a good counter offer once I tell them I am leaving. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]That said, I always have a spread sheet with what I make and what I will make with a switch when I approach my boss and when I interview with another firm to see how much of a financial advantage will I have by switching. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]In one interview, when I told prospective employer that their offer wasn't substantial enough as per my calculations. They asked how? I showed them my spreadsheet and they were impressed and stated that they liked how I was handling the negotiations and they upped their offer but then my boss made me a counter offer after looking at the same spreadsheet. So, I stayed. We are engineers and licensed one none the less; we can figure out final numbers after taking into accounts car/cell allowance, health insurance premiums, 401k match, # of days off and all that jazz!. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have a pretty good gig here with tons of days off (relatively speaking) after a decade with one firm. I am staying here as long as they pay me close to what I can make outside! If not, adios, amigos![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]That said, I always have a spread sheet with what I make and what I will make with a switch when I approach my boss and when I interview with another firm to see how much of a financial advantage will I have by switching. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]In one interview, when I told prospective employer that their offer wasn't substantial enough as per my calculations. They asked how? I showed them my spreadsheet and they were impressed and stated that they liked how I was handling the negotiations and they upped their offer but then my boss made me a counter offer after looking at the same spreadsheet. So, I stayed. We are engineers and licensed one none the less; we can figure out final numbers after taking into accounts car/cell allowance, health insurance premiums, 401k match, # of days off and all that jazz!. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have a pretty good gig here with tons of days off (relatively speaking) after a decade with one firm. I am staying here as long as they pay me close to what I can make outside! If not, adios, amigos![/SIZE]
I am trying to get a promotion to Civil Engineer II (I am Engineer I now) within my company and get a pay raise. However, upon researching it appears I am already paid like a typical Engineer II in my company and others. I don't really understand it, because I feel the area I live is one of the most expensive in the country and that a licensed PE should be making more than that. My question is are most Civil Engineer IIs already licensed?
BamaStrucPESE
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I think the CE II level is when you become licensed. I was made a CE II before I passed the PE, but not by long because I could take the test after 3 years. People who have to wait until 4 yrs experience could be CE IIs for 2-3 years before taking the test. In my company you can be considered for CE III after 6 years, so someone could be a CE II with a PE for a shorter time than they were a CE II without.
JB66money
Supporting Member to Examinees
DanHalen, ypu and I are almost in the same exact situation. I have been with my company for over six years and passed the PE last April and I have never been promoted. There are guys that I started with me who don't have their PE that have been promoted twice. In fact my current supervisor does not even have his PE License, I am the only engineer in my division that has a PE and yet I am at the lowest level engineer in my division. My company is very inconsistant when it comes to the PE, on the one hand they claim to encourage it, but on the other hand for some people like myself it is not even worth me being considered being promoted from an entry level engineer to just the second level engineer in which 99% of the engineer get two years after they start working for the company. By the way DanHalen are you by chance in the Mid West? Many companies in the Mid West still have that good old boy system and are not progressive at all. I have friends who are immigrants from non-European countries and they could not get a job in the Mid West (states such as MO, IL, IN and OH) to save their lives, but they got really good jobs when they went to states such as Texas, California or the the east coast. Many companies in the Mid West including my current one believe that the engineering is a white male of European decent profession.
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Ramnares P.E.
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If your company has a defined progression path then you should bring the issue up with your manager. At my previous job, the HR documentation had a table that defined the number of years experience, education requirements, license requirements etc. for promotion to the next engineering level. I met with my manager and told him that based on the company policy I should now be an Engineer II and if there was any reason I was not. I was quickly promoted with a fairly decent pay raise.
If you bring the issue to your manager's attention and don't see any results, definitely start sending out resumes (which you should probably be doing anyway).
If you bring the issue to your manager's attention and don't see any results, definitely start sending out resumes (which you should probably be doing anyway).
DanHalen
Well-known member
A lot has happened in the past month. A guy that I used to work with left during the recession and came back to work with us recently. He came back as a high level manager and someone I always liked working with. Last summer I had applied for a position that would report directly to his new job and was turned down. Things happened and no one got the job. He found out through the grapevine I had applied and he called me and asked me if I wanted it. I told him I did and he asked how much I wanted. This was on a Friday and the following Tuesday he sent me an offer letter with more money than I asked for. I got the promotion I wanted (skipping a few rungs) and now getting some great management experience and a lot more involved with decision making within our organization. I had given up and was literally a few days from closing on a deal to relocate elsewhere working for another company. I wasn't looking forward to moving but I wasn't happy where I was at either.
If your employer doesn't value your work or your PE license then move on. There is no point in sticking around trying to win them over. In the end you will feel very bitter, angry, and frustrated because you weren't able to fix how your employer feels about you. There are too many good people, firms, and municipalities out there that will value your work and license to stay where you are and being miserable.
If your employer doesn't value your work or your PE license then move on. There is no point in sticking around trying to win them over. In the end you will feel very bitter, angry, and frustrated because you weren't able to fix how your employer feels about you. There are too many good people, firms, and municipalities out there that will value your work and license to stay where you are and being miserable.
Ken PE 3.1
It's wacky waving inflatable arm flailing tube man
Awesome news Dan. Nice to see good things happen to people. Congrats!
now that my company is headed back into the black i was able to talk with my boss yesterday. i'm getting a 5% pay raise for getting my PE license and i'm happy with that. i could probably make a bit more money elsewhere but my work environment is awesome, benefits are great, and there's room for growth within the company. that last part is key for me. i held the same position with my last company but that was the top of the ladder, nowhere else to go. at this company there's still room to climb
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Ramnares P.E.
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5%?! Holy crap. I'm just sitting here on a big ol' 0%.
matt267 PE
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Porter, congrats!!
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