benbo
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Just a trillion? Then what the heck is everybody worried about? We gave almost that much to some bankers in just one year.
Obama aims to ax the moon mission
- Thread starter Capt Worley PE
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jmbeck
Well-known member
You can take Boeing out, because if it wasn't for the military contracts (and heavy involvement in Mercury through Apollo), they would have been out long ago.
Also, NASA hasn't ever had a "Vista" or "New Coke".
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D
Dexman PE
But I do remember a Mars rover that went splat because of someones inablity to convert units...
jmbeck
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Touche'
And with that, I resort to the "...because it makes us the baddest, awesomest, ass-kickingest nation on the planet. God Bless America! And if you say otherwise, I can't help you, Pinko."
benbo
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NASA has a pretty good track record when you consider the remarkable things they do. Given the problems at Toyota I'm not sure they would have done better. A lot of the problems came in recent years when they tried to do things on the cheap.
Obviously a lot of NASA work was done by private contractors. When we talk about government we are talking about government as the developer and producer and government as the customer. There may be a lot of customers for Atom bombs and ICBMs, but I don't think we want to sell them to just anybody on the free market.
And yes, government is just a collection of people like a corporation or other business entity. The main difference is in how the entity decides what to produce or purchase, and how the entity finances it. Most private enterprise is funded proactively and voluntarily by investors who look to be paid back by customers. Investors can vote out the governing body of the corporation, but in general they make their desires known by withdrawing investment. Customers do likewise by not purchasing products or services.
But some things will just take too long for people to make up their mind to fund. I submit we would have been in big trouble if we waited for private industry to come up with a profit motive to develop nuclear weapons while Germany and Russia were working on theirs. That's why we elect representatives to make these decisions, and yes, coercively take our money in taxes. The way we express our pleasure or displeasure at their decisions is also to some extent by by investing (buying or not buying treasuries), but more directly by voting them in or out of office and working or contributing money to that end.
Obviously a lot of NASA work was done by private contractors. When we talk about government we are talking about government as the developer and producer and government as the customer. There may be a lot of customers for Atom bombs and ICBMs, but I don't think we want to sell them to just anybody on the free market.
And yes, government is just a collection of people like a corporation or other business entity. The main difference is in how the entity decides what to produce or purchase, and how the entity finances it. Most private enterprise is funded proactively and voluntarily by investors who look to be paid back by customers. Investors can vote out the governing body of the corporation, but in general they make their desires known by withdrawing investment. Customers do likewise by not purchasing products or services.
But some things will just take too long for people to make up their mind to fund. I submit we would have been in big trouble if we waited for private industry to come up with a profit motive to develop nuclear weapons while Germany and Russia were working on theirs. That's why we elect representatives to make these decisions, and yes, coercively take our money in taxes. The way we express our pleasure or displeasure at their decisions is also to some extent by by investing (buying or not buying treasuries), but more directly by voting them in or out of office and working or contributing money to that end.
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MGX
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wilheldp_PE
PE, LEED AP, SPAM KING
Easy for you to say...you can probably find a politician that comes close to representing your views that has a snowball's chance in hell of actually getting elected. I can't fix what I perceive to be the problem with government by voting.
Capt Worley PE
Run silent, run deep
Yeah, Goldin and his frikken, Better, Faster Cheaper. That program, along with a couple others, were so damn understaffed that they actually had NO ONE in the mission control center for some shifts. After they lost a couple, three probes, the ditched that motto (Known internally as Big F**kin' Clusterf**k), and started running the agency properly.
That's very sadly true. And I'll add to it that decent people won't putup with the BS with running for office.
Back to the topic, I think government does need to undertake programs that the private industry is either too small or unwilling to undertake on their own. The atom bomb and the space program are two examples, but the TVA and Hoover dam were pretty important as well.
I think we screwed up by killing our domestic supercollider. We could fund a lot more pure science stuff, too, IMO.
chaosiscash
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Capt Worley PE
Run silent, run deep
Didn't Carter s-can that one?
chaosiscash
Subcontractor
Yep.
benbo
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Aside from armed insurrection, I don't know of any other way to change our government. Of course you can run for office yourself, quit your job and dedicate yourself to this goal, etc.
Since that's not practical, there are libertarian candidates every election, and I suspect there will be Tea Party candidates this next election. You can work for them and donate money.
I suspect complaining about it on EB.com is not very effective.
Note: Unrelated tangent follows. This has nothing to do with Wils comments.
That's what bugs me most about people like birthers, etc. Okay, assume someone has incontrovertible proof that the President was born in Kenya or some such place. Okay. Now what? Exactly what is the mechanism for removing him from office? THe only constitutional method is impeachment. There is no "Constitution cop" who is going to come down and force him out. I guarantee you, even after Marbury and Madison, the Supreme Court would not try such a thing. THat's why everything is political, and everything depends on elections.
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wilheldp_PE
PE, LEED AP, SPAM KING
Exactly. Did you read my Quiet Angry thread a while back? There are lots of people who disagree with most or all of what government does and stands for these days, but it is absolutely impossible to change from within the system. There was supposed to be a mechanism for the government to be "reset" by the people when it no longer represented their wants and needs (it's in the Declaration of Independence, but not lined out in the Constitution). Electing a politician to go in and change the way things are run in Washington is an oxymoron. You can always count on people to do what is in their best interest, and when a politician's only employer is the government, you can't expect them to try to bring the government down from within.
benbo
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I didn't read that thread. But if what you write here is the case, I guess you're just screwed.
I don't feel screwed myself. I'm pretty happy with my life. And although I don't like a lot of things that are going on, I'm not that worried in reality
Capt Worley PE
Run silent, run deep
Wow! Wonderful news from NASA!
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/05...ations-muslims/
And, because of the moon mission's cancellation, 60% of the on-site contractors at MSFC are boing laid off. Combine that with the census workers being laid off and the jobs numbers won't be looking so rosy.
Great! Give up the moon, and improve relations with the Muslims with a space program that barely exists anymore. Bravo!
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/05...ations-muslims/
And, because of the moon mission's cancellation, 60% of the on-site contractors at MSFC are boing laid off. Combine that with the census workers being laid off and the jobs numbers won't be looking so rosy.
Master slacker
Something awesome.
You're not looking at the big picture, Capt. The recent stimulus packages have "created or saved ( :laugh: ) " three million jobs. Now where would we be if it weren't for those expendatures?
Capt Worley PE
Run silent, run deep
NASA logo makeovers: New Arabic Sensitivity Administration
Unless we plan on shooting Taliban captives into space, this is the most asinine thing I've heard of in quite some time. I think I'm going to start printing out articles to send in with my taxes, stating "please don't put my tax dollars towards this."
Capt Worley PE
Run silent, run deep
