Non-Theists More Intelligent than Theists?
- Thread starter ptatohed
- Start date
Help Support Professional Engineer & PE Exam Forum:
Dexman PE PMP
Internationally PMP'n his PE-ness
I don't look at bible verses to "justify" atheism. I simply don't believe in god (the actual definition of atheism). I ask that "why does he allow" question to Christians to find out why they dedicate their life to following His word because He is such a sadistic being. Yes, there are some really good parts of the Bible (and every other form of scripture), and if you use those good parts to help you be a better person then I thank you. However, the rational part of me remembers that the Bible was essentially written to control the masses (a form of government). People didn't know or understand their environment or basic sciences (biology, chemistry, physics), and were wildly susceptible to superstitions and the Bible became a very easy way to "write off" that ignorance.
Last edited by a moderator:
ptatohed
Licenced to Spell
Are you trying to tell me that the universe is more than 6,000 yo, the earth is not flat, that the sun does not rotate around the earth (and stand still for a day), there are more planets than can be seen with the naked eye, and that if people are sick, they should receive medicine and not exorcism???
engineergurl
Resident Sweet Cheeks
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 13,258
- Reaction score
- 945
That sort of depends on what part of the bible, the majoity of the the "rule making" is actually in the Pentateuch which doesn't have as much significance in Chrisitianity as it does other religions (yes the ten commandments are in there, but we don't worry about eating cloven hoofed animals). I've seen it argued before that the Romans created the Christianity to pacify and control the masses but Judaisum was around long before that so I'm curious as to why you singled out Christians. In fact most if not all semitic religions start with the same basic rules.
The easiest argument for an atheist is for them to question God but that's probably because faithful people also question God too, each and every time we ask "why is this happening to me". We have free will which means God doesn't control everything, we do. If something bad has happened, maybe we should have chosen differently...
While I won't disagree that religion was often used to explain concepts not yet scientifically understood, I'm trying to come up with some examples in the bible and can't think of many. I could see that in more of the older religions than the bible.
I have more to say than I have time to write here, but let me ask this question: Is there anything stated in the bible that can be proven false? I know we cannot prove miracles actually occurred or the existence of God. Those rely on faith, but I do not know of anything stated as fact that was, or is, wrong. The Bible is not a book of science, but if a statement relating to science was made, it was and still is correct. Please correct me if you think I am wrong. That's not to say people of faith were always correct in their teaching (flat earth, earth centric universe, Salem witch trials, etc.), but the book itself is infallible because it was written by Him through men of faith.
As far as not believing in God because of the messed up situation we find ourselves in, He did not create this mess. Man did. He gave us free will and we took care of allowing sin into this earth. Sin destroyed His perfect creation and is still causing havoc today. If anything, this should drive you to God, because through His love he gave us a way out of sin and misery in both this world and the next. No, Christians are not exempt from pain or hardship, but we can have a peace through it all that God has a plan for our lives as he does anyone that will believe. This is not a crutch as some would say. It simply opens up an avenue to strength that unbelievers do not have. I don't say that or any of this to condemn, but to try to explain my fellow Christians perspective. I also don't presume to speak for all Christianity as there are more denominations and beliefs than i can count. Ive already spent more time on this than i meant to, so let the debate continue.
I love a healthy debate. It will either make me a stronger Christian or show me that I'm wrong and need to change. Just please keep emotion out of it and we can all learn something here...
As far as not believing in God because of the messed up situation we find ourselves in, He did not create this mess. Man did. He gave us free will and we took care of allowing sin into this earth. Sin destroyed His perfect creation and is still causing havoc today. If anything, this should drive you to God, because through His love he gave us a way out of sin and misery in both this world and the next. No, Christians are not exempt from pain or hardship, but we can have a peace through it all that God has a plan for our lives as he does anyone that will believe. This is not a crutch as some would say. It simply opens up an avenue to strength that unbelievers do not have. I don't say that or any of this to condemn, but to try to explain my fellow Christians perspective. I also don't presume to speak for all Christianity as there are more denominations and beliefs than i can count. Ive already spent more time on this than i meant to, so let the debate continue.
I love a healthy debate. It will either make me a stronger Christian or show me that I'm wrong and need to change. Just please keep emotion out of it and we can all learn something here...
Dexman PE PMP
Internationally PMP'n his PE-ness
Good post Goodal, I appreciate your perspective and agree that a good debate can be had.
ptatohed
Licenced to Spell
EG, I think there is a clear distinction between these two "questions of God" that you refer to, by believers and non-believers. When an atheist questions God (pick a God, any God (- or Gods, Goddess, or Goddesses)), he/she is asking does this god exist, based on the available evidence. When a faithful person asks "Why is this happening to me?", as you used in your example, the "Why" already assumes the answer to whether God exists or not. As soon as you say the word 'why', you've already assumed the answer before the question is asked. There may very well not be a 'why'. Personally, I like the word 'how' much better.
I gave several scientific inaccuracies of the bible above. And I am happy to provide a dozen more upon request.
engineergurl
Resident Sweet Cheeks
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 13,258
- Reaction score
- 945
- it's easier to question someones faith when they are doubting the God, think "so where's your God now"-- hey yeah, where is my God is a response that can come quickly if someone is doubting.
- I don't believe the bible actually states that the earth is flat, but mentions "the ends of the earth" and the "corners"
- Wasn't the hilocentric debate actually with church members or is that written in the bible?
- I aways just assumed that the "sun and moon and stars" included the other planets, is there a place that says otherwise?
- medicine and herbs have been used through out time, again I believe that the exorcisms were more of a church concept than one that came from the book
seriously, I said I couldn't think of many, not any, the point I was trying to make was there are a lot of other religions on this earth that explain things in more unique and unscientific ways that Christianity.
- the 6,000 year debate is a good example, but the bible does not say "the earth is 6000 years old", someone did the timeline of generations to come up with that, besides everyone knows that the earth was made on Feb 29th on a leap year so and evidence of man HAS only been recorded for about 200,000 years... maybe a scribe put the decimal in the wrong place or something?
- I don't believe the bible actually states that the earth is flat, but mentions "the ends of the earth" and the "corners"
- Wasn't the hilocentric debate actually with church members or is that written in the bible?
- I aways just assumed that the "sun and moon and stars" included the other planets, is there a place that says otherwise?
- medicine and herbs have been used through out time, again I believe that the exorcisms were more of a church concept than one that came from the book
seriously, I said I couldn't think of many, not any, the point I was trying to make was there are a lot of other religions on this earth that explain things in more unique and unscientific ways that Christianity.
wilheldp_PE
PE, LEED AP, SPAM KING
I am interested to know your thoughts on the Apocrypha. Those books fascinate me greatly because they were written around the same time as other books in the Christian Bible, but they were omitted from nearly all Canonical versions.
Dexman PE PMP
Internationally PMP'n his PE-ness
Your response touches a bit on why I don't like organized religion as a whole. We follow "this" part, but not "that" part. "Cafeteria" religion really bothers me and it leads to an instant discreditation of whatever position that is trying to be made. It creates a distrust from non-believers over the hypocrisy. They say they follow the Bible and will throw verses out to justify or reinforce their beliefs, but when a verse is thrown back that contradicts it they just say "we don't follow that part", or "that part isn't valid anymore." Leviticus is a common one that I've seen used in the anti-gay arguments, but then when you reply with "you realize that eating shell fish and talking back to your parents is also considered a sin" then suddenly they dismiss Leviticus as outdated. Following parts of a religion and ignoring others for convenience is the baseline for a lot of contempt.
An anecdotal example of this is when my wife was in highschool. Her friend's mother would chastise her for having pre-marital sex and would say she is sinning and will go to hell. However, before they graduated highschool her friend got pregnant and suddenly there was no problem with it. She would use the bible to judge others, but when that judgment became inconvenient it was dropped.
This isn't just an issue with Christianity. Islamic extremists do the exact same thing with the exploitation of "kill the non-believers" and martyrdom for 72 virgins. With both Christianity and Islam, kindness and love for your fellow man seems to be the forgotten aspect and instead the religion is used as a way to exclude others and justify their personal beliefs of hatred rather than the religious belief that all of humanity shares this earth.
Dexman PE PMP
Internationally PMP'n his PE-ness
The psychology of religion is a very fascinating topic. To me it always asks the question of, "Do you have your beliefs because of your religion, or do you have your religion to justify your beliefs?" With the extremists, I would argue it's the latter but with the genuinely good people I've met it's the former.
If I remember correctly, those are the ones that they cant verify the author. Like the book of Thomas and Mary, etc. I think one is written about Jesus life as a little boy. Apparently, if they couldn't make really, really, really sure who wrote the book or if it contained things contrary to those they could verify it was left out. The author of Hebrews is unknown as well as some proverbs, but they were either in the original Hebrew text or agreed with the Gospels. BTW, I'm not a theologian, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last week (no joke).
You are correct that there are hypocrites, but you shouldn't discount God because of mans faults. If that girl was rude or obnoxious about pointing out a sin in others, it was only to try to hide her own. That is nearly always true. As far as picking and choosing parts of the Bible, every word of the bible has been applicable at some point in time. The only thing that has changed did so because of the cross. When Jesus died for our sins, the Law was replaced with Grace. The things you had to do (sacrifice) and not do (eating shrimps) to stay clean were no longer required because he replaced those sacrifices with his own. Actual sin (sodomy, theft, adultery, greed, murder, etc.) were still wrong and, while some were not specifically named in the New Testament, Jesus feelings toward sin in general remained constant. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Also, I have found in dealing with other denominations, that yes there are some things i have no answer for (ie baptism). Is it required to go to heaven. My answer is no, even though there are a couple of places that the Bible seems to say it is. My answer for this is that when there APPEARS to be a contradiction (which there never is) look at the Bible as as whole and if one place says one thing and its said another way in a dozen different places, i'm probably misinterpreting that one. That's not a very good answer especially for engineers that like a cut and dry answer to everything, but that's the best i've gotten in these 34 years of life.
engineergurl
Resident Sweet Cheeks
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 13,258
- Reaction score
- 945
These books actually tie into with what Dex just said because they are in my bible but not others, so while he pointed out that I've "tossed out some parts" I don't think there are any Abrahamic religions that follow the book completely at all as a whole. That said,I don't feel that it's the religion or the bible that teaches people as much as the congregation. As humans we follow the examples we see. I can honestly say, gowing up I had limited exposure to the Old Testament in spite of attending a Catholic school, it wasn't until I attended a Baptist chuch a few times that I started discovering what was included.
For me, I feel like my relationship with my God became stronger as a branched out from the "churches teachings" to discover what my own beliefs really were. In the end I decided that both the Catholic and Baptist churches were some jumble of what I felt and where I identify which makes perfect sense to me because some parts of the reformation actually made sense to me (while others didn't).
There is however a big difference between organized religion, the bible and my faith.
Dexman PE PMP
Internationally PMP'n his PE-ness
EG, I don't want you to think my posts are directly written for or about you. I wrote that post several times to try to make sure I wasn't specifically targeting anyone specifically.
Dexman PE PMP
Internationally PMP'n his PE-ness
But for me, a belief in a God doesn't bring anything new to the table. The world I live in is explained by science, my morals are based on the upbringing my parents provided, and I do not have a desire for "eternal happiness" (heaven). The way I see it, Aesop's fables provide the same moral compass that any other religious text does. They are not as elaborate and do not focus on the teachings of any one central character, but they still provide valuable lessons to live your life by.
I still have my superstitions and have my "good luck" rituals. I also believe in spiritual growth. With my son's cubscout den, I teach ways to grow spiritually without the belief in a God. Trust in oneself, the belief that obstacles can be overcome with confidence and knowledge, and how to treat others with kindness and respect are all ways to grow spiritually.
engineergurl
Resident Sweet Cheeks
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 13,258
- Reaction score
- 945
I know, I tend to use myself as an example because I stopped practicing for quite a few years because I questioned organized religion, things didn't make sense (ie. confessions), the extravagant spending etc etc. I explored other options and came to the conclusion that every church is different, even in the same denominations.
ptatohed
Licenced to Spell
[SIZE=10.5pt]goodal, I appreciate your professional and polite response and your willingness to further the debate. But I must respectfully disagree with much of what you claim. There are plenty of statements in the bible that can be proven false. The bible says that God hung the stars on a firmament (a solid dome in the sky). The bible thought the moon was a light source. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]You are correct that the existence or non-existence of a Christian Biblical God (or any other deity), and miracles, can not be disproved (you can not prove that something does not exist) but I would think if such supernatural things existed, we should have mounds of evidence for their existence. I find it interesting that God presented himself regularly 2,000 to 3,000 years ago but nothing in the last 2,000 years. Why? As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof… but, heck, I’d accept even un-extraordinary proof for the existence of anything supernatural. The truth is, there isn’t any. Why? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]You’re right, the bible is not a science book but it sure makes some scientific claims. All of which are bass ackwards. Like a huge one… the origin of the universe and the origin of earth species. The origin of the universe and the origin of species did not happen within 6 days 6,000 years ago. It just didn’t. We have an abundance of evidence that shows otherwise. Do you not agree with this? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]The bible is far from infallible. With all due respect, it quite frankly is an outdated, scientifically inaccurate, loaded with errors, contradicting, sexist, racist, immoral, silly, book, that happens to have a few good nuggets (of which we don’t need the bible to even know in the first place). I mean no disrespect but, in my opinion, the bible portrays a vengeful, genocidal, petty, creator (who, for whatever reason is obsessed with circumcision – lol). Have you read the bible? I strongly suggest that everyone should. Don't simply listen to what people teach you is in the bible, read it for yourself. Worship a god that sends the order to rip the babies of non-believers from their mother’s arms and dash their heads against the stones (and enjoy doing so)? Or, better yet, rip the unborn from the mother’s belly? Not a dude I to want worship, no thanks![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]To believe 2,000-3,000 year old books written by primitive Middle Eastern peasants that tell me snakes and donkeys talk, bushes sing, women turn into pillars of salt, sisters get their dad drunk so they can both get pregnant by him, that women are nothing but chattel, that it’s okay to beat your slave so long as they live for a few days before dying, that a man who rapes a women must marry her (but not before paying her father 50 silver coins, of course), a book that directs the stoning of a bride to death if she is not a virgin on her wedding night, instruction from god to mate with your wife’s maidservant, mandatory incest, a book where the creator of the universe sends his angel of death to kill all the first borns of Egypt (so make sure you sacrifice an animal and spread its blood over the door - because that makes sense!), or sends an angel of death to kill a man for forgetting to circumcise his 2nd born son….. is just not for me, sorry. The bible, especially the Old Testament, is a pretty horrid book, in my personal opinion. As is the Quran.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I’m sorry, but I just don’t get it. I’ve tried. I didn’t come to my beliefs (or lack thereof) willy-nilly. I carefully studied all of the available evidence and decided there is no compelling reason to believe in the existence of any of the world’s (1,000 or so) invisible gods. And, again, I mean no disrespect by anything I said. And I am more than welcome to be corrected if I said anything incorrect. Thanks. [/SIZE]
Last edited by a moderator:
Dexman PE PMP
Internationally PMP'n his PE-ness
This goes back to the "lack of understanding of sciences" because uncircumcised penises are prone to some serious fungal and bacterial infections if not properly cared for. They didn't know what the problem was, they just knew there was a problem. The "simple fix" was to cut off the foreskin and eliminate the potential. Then, like many other things, became tradition and was passed from generation to generation.
