Level of engineering education in the US

[Capt Worley PE]

Thanks. I liked the cinnamon ring to it.

Fixed it for you.

 

[roadwreck]

(roadwreck @ Jun 12 2008, 09:13 AM) Thanks. I liked the cinnamon ring to it.

Fixed it for you.

:Locolaugh:

 

[kevo_55]

Hey, this thread is just starting to get fun.

Keep it going!!!

Ha ha! Cinnamon ring!!

 

[engineergurl]

I can keep it going for one more post, just because I have one or two more things to say, but then allyall are on your own. Has anyone read the post from begining to end lately. Wow.

In my original posting, I thought I had some points... maybe you weren't into my moon school, but I thought I had brought up some points to validate that comparing the schooling from country to country would be near impossible. In fact I kind of feel like the only way would be to get every student in all the schools to solve the same problems and time them... even then it may not be an accurate judgement (oh crap, I think they have that already... isn't it that kinda like that thing you guys call the PE exam?, [SIZE=12pt]sorry couldn't resist[/SIZE])

What I can't understand was why no one mentioned a thing in the like 6 other paragraphs that I wrote, but my little side note on the post about how people were doubting their edcuation was quoted and then BAM all holy heck breaks loose. I may have been on the defense in other postings just because the whole political thing hits so close to home for me, and I don't understand why it was brought up. And of course once I'm on the defensive where I am actually allowed to respond on topics then I'm a firecracker lit up.

So I return to the original topic at hand... and refer to my own REAL life experiences. I have found (in my limited experience being so young and beautiful and innocent, joke, ha ha) that the best engineers are the ones who started at the bottom and worked their way up despite what edcuation held (where they went to school or for how many years). They're more rounded supervisors and employees, they acknowledge that there might be people out there that know better and are pretty well open to new ideas rather then sticking to the book learning. Every situation is going to be different if it wasn't then, there would be one set of master plans drawn up and there wouldn't be an engineering field so to speak. A wise man once told me, engineering was developing solutions to problems. The more experience one has in solving a particular type of problem, the better engineer they will be for that problem type. In higher education, prior to research level, I think that the problems being solved are too generic, and unrealistic compared to the work place.

Of course I have had experience with only a handful of engineers with international educational backgrounds, I found those that I have interacted with were cut and dry in regards to designs and really did everything by the book, I just chocked it up to the fact they obtained their positions based on education rather then experience and moved on. (As this was my observation of most engineers of simliar type resumes, and I never gave the international part a thought) I have yet to come across an inter-planet or inter-galactic engineer, so other then hypothetical references, I have no opinion on those.

 

[roadwreck]

 

[engineergurl]

HEY! I got back on topic and tried to refer to my moon school reiterate my points... don't blame me if it gets out of hand again!

 

[Dark Knight]

opcorn:

 

[EM_PS]

WARNING!

The following is a blatant plagerism from somebody here that posted it long ago [sorry, i wanna give props, but don't remember who posted this]

Let us review the rules of the noble profession of engineering:

1. Engineering is a noble sport which calls for good sportsmanship. Occasional blundering is part of the game. Let it be your ambition to be the first one to discover and announce your blunders. If somebody else gets ahead of you, take it with a smile and thank him for his interest. Once you begin to feel tempted to deny your blunders in the face of reasonable evidence, you have ceased to be a good sport. You are already a crank or a grouch.

2. The worst habit you can possibly acquire is to become uncritical towards your own concepts and at the same time skeptical towards those of others. Once you arrive at that state, you are in the grip of senility, regardless of your age.

3. When you commit one of your ideas to print, emphasize every controversial aspect of your thesis which you can perceive. Thus, you win the respect of your readers and are kept aware of the possibilities for further improvement. A departure from this rule is the safest way to wreck your reputation and to paralyze your mental activities.

4. Very few people are either so dumb or so dishonest that you could not learn anything from them.

This goes both ways . . . .maybe show it to all your Queen's subjects smack-talkers my man - we're all brothers / sisters in sliderules here

 

[Carlito]

Many of the good old guys and girls of this forum are veterans, married to veterans, or a close relative or friend of a veteran. A lot of people have had to sacrifice A LOT when it has come to the war in Iraq - making obtuse, broad-brushed statements about this country's involvement in that war is going to chafe, at best.

But that's exactly what I was doubting: were these sacrifices necessary (think about the fabricated evidence about the weapons of mass destruction and of support for Al-Kaida)?

And explain to me, how anything I have said can possibly be construed to discredit our servicemen and women serving in Iraq any way - and their relatives and friends? I feel sorry for the victims of this mad war and for their families as any other human being, but yet I refuse to live an illusion that their sacrifice somehow justifies our involvement there... damn, also think of the other side: ravaging and raping the country, destroying the whole infrastructure, leaving thousands of civilians, women and children, dead...

I think it's time we wake up and smell the coffee and start asking some basic questions, like 'Where is America heading with it's military involvement in Iraq'? Was it needed and how long are we to remain there? What can we do now and what's the way forward in our international policy?

For starters, let's do our homework, and ask a basic, fair question: how did 'that evil dictator Saddam' come about'? (only for those that didn't know.... simple: the American gov't, paved a way for him to come to power, and then supplied him with weapons (also of mass destruction), to fight their neighbors, Iran. And did we need him to fight Iran? And why our so called allies, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, is the #1 financial supporter of the very terrorists we are fighting? Any takers? and so on... see, this is just starting to get interesting...

And don't be surprised if people in foreign lands dare to have an opinion that runs contrary to yours. Anyone remembers when we started bashing and making fun of the French - by boycotting French goods, and insulting (the "Screw the French" , and the "Freedom fires" campaigns) after they said "Merci" to their involvement in Iraq? Had they no right to decide for themselves? (And who's having the last laugh now? - is it not the French and the Germans)?

Again, this is off topic, but too an important issue to be blessed with silence.

I realize that what I am saying is not popular, but then again, popularity is not what I am after (rather a civilized discourse).

So have your say - but please don't waste our time with dumb comments or insults.

 

[Carlito]

Thank you.

Mary, again, by silencing one's opinion or sweeping the dirt under the carpet, you are not going to solve a problem - and as an experienced engineer, you should know better.

I LOVE MY COUNTRY!!!
...I think the USA is the best place in the world for ME.

Good for you, Mary.

But again, I don't understand how your expressed love for our country and the claim that it the best place in the world for you adds anything to this discussion here - where has it been said to the contrary? Was it because I said I doubt our leaders and the direction they took on Iraq? (I take it to support my observation of how insecure a nation we are...)

Believe me, there are people, and I am not even talking about the Middle East here, who beg to differ about the moral standard exercised abroad... there is the good in America which no one here doubts, but there is also no small part of crop, affecting not only us, but the better part of the world, which not too many of my fellow country mates seem to care to either recognize or discuss... and I wonder - why is that?

 

[Dark Knight]

I do not know mate. I think it is enough of this issue. You have your opinion and it is respected, although many of us here think you are wrong. We have had friends, relatives or somebody we know involved in that conflict and it is not relevant if the war has a valid motive or not. They are there, risking their lives and that is the bottom line.

You seem to be smart and centered so you know the effect your comments are having. I do not agre with the message you are bringing here but the only thing I am going to say that it is enough. If the sacrifces were/are necessary it is not up to you or me to decide. The only ones with the moral right to decide that are the ones that were there and the ones that are there.

Unless you had someone shooting at you, or you had to carry a wounded friend, or you had to lift the dead body of a pal you have no business judging the war or this country. If you do not like here...I guess you know what you can do.

 

[Guest]

And explain to me, how anything I have said can possibly be construed to discredit our servicemen and women serving in Iraq any way - and their relatives and friends?

I did not say that.

I think it's time we wake up and smell the coffee and start asking some basic questions, like 'Where is America heading with it's military involvement in Iraq'? Was it needed and how long are we to remain there? What can we do now and what's the way forward in our international policy?

Fair questions but do you think these questions have not been asked? Do you believe dialogue akin to what you offer is going to, as you put it, start the basic questions?

For starters, let's do our homework, and ask a basic, fair question: how did 'that evil dictator Saddam' come about'? (only for those that didn't know.... simple: the American gov't, paved a way for him to come to power, and then supplied him with weapons (also of mass destruction), to fight their neighbors, Iran. And did we need him to fight Iran? And why our so called allies, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, is the #1 financial supporter of the very terrorists we are fighting? Any takers? and so on... see, this is just starting to get interesting...

So I take it you understand the dynamics of the middle east (and specifically Iraq) so well that there is a SIMPLE reason why things have proceeded?

And don't be surprised if people in foreign lands dare to have an opinion that runs contrary to yours. Anyone remembers when we started bashing and making fun of the French - by boycotting French goods, and insulting (the "Screw the French" , and the "Freedom fires" campaigns) after they said "Merci" to their involvement in Iraq? Had they no right to decide for themselves? (And who's having the last laugh now? - is it not the French and the Germans)?

Nobody is disputing your contrarian views - they are pointing out the inflammatory manner in which you have provided those views.

Again, this is off topic, but too an important issue to be blessed with silence.

Well .. they do say silence is golden.

I realize that what I am saying is not popular, but then again, popularity is not what I am after (rather a civilized discourse).
So have your say - but please don't waste our time with dumb comments or insults.

And here we are ... at the end of all things and yet again another backhanded comment to those who have offered opinions as well.

I have not called your comments dumb or a waste - only inflammatory. It is you sir, who doesn't seem to be able to manage a civil discourse without resorting to name calling. And with that I will NOT be responding to any more of your diatribe.

JR

 

[Carlito]

You have your opinion and it is respected, although many of us here think you are wrong.

Man, what planet do you live on??? I know that engineers on the whole tend to be conservative, but have you no idea that about 2/3 of US population is against this war?

(see CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. April 28-30, 2008, http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm)

... it is not relevant if the war has a valid motive or not.

Oh God, I can't believe this is coming from an engineer - an educated, intelligent individual!!!

Dear Lord, I really want to believe that you have no idea what you have just said....

You seem to be smart...

Why, thank you, dude.

But judging solely on the strength of your arguments, I cannot say the same about you.

If you do not like here...I guess you know what you can do.

Wow, I take this to be the height of your argumentation...

Yet another low blow...

OK, everyone, let's pretend nothing's wrong - that will surely make it go away...

Christ, is this the way you solve your problems?

 

[Carlito]

And here we are ... at the end of all things and yet again another backhanded comment to those who have offered opinions as well.

That's just not fair.

You are playing dumb.

Have you not a bit of common honesty left?

(take a look at what sort of comments my previous views got me...)

Nobody is disputing your contrarian views...

And why is that?

I thought the whole idea behind having a forum as this was to promote an exchange of ideas and opinions.

As soon as I expressed a view which some did not like, I get insulted and the like... is that the way to have a discussion?

...they are pointing out the inflammatory manner in which you have provided those views.

And what is this 'inflammatory manner' you are referring to?

I have expressed my views without insulting anyone.

In return I get insults and low blows from everywhere.

Everything but even a shade of valid arguments.

Except for one other voice, others seem to want to continue living an illusion... hoping it just goes away like a bad dream...

 

[Dark Knight]

Carlito...I know the mods are going to discipline me because of this post but I will gladly face it.

You remind me a guy, a former member here,that had your same attitude of being higher than thou. Well, no one is perfect. For the record: I am against the war and that is well known here. But there are men and women dying for what they think is right,or for what they were ordered to do, and I am not the one to judge them. I can only support them. As far as I know not to many of them are there because they wanted to go. They are following orders and doing their job. Who am I to judge them? Who the heck are you to judge them?

We have a good friend that just came from Irak a few months ago after a year deployed. An engineer, with a wife and a kid. Just came back to the states and is trying to re-take his life. Got good job and is doing great. Guess what...he is facing the posibility of bieng deployed again. Do you think he wants to? I do not think so and I am praying he does not have to go back there. How do you think he is going to feel if he reads the bunch of crap you posted? Just out of respect I would avoid making comments against the war even when he knows I am against it.

There is something called respect and consideration. You do not know the meaning of those words.

Maybe you are darn right. I am not too smart, looks like not as smart as the all-knowing full of it carlito from UK so based on that, my apologies to the mods and to the Lord(I am going to sin) and I am going to speak with my heart and not my head.....

Darn....I cannot do it...You do not worth it.

Edit: My apologies to whoever read what I posted before editing. I broke my own rule of not posting or saying something out of anger.

Sorry mates

 

[EM_PS]

Oh God, I can't believe this is coming from an engineer - an educated, intelligent individual!!!Dear Lord, I really want to believe that you have no idea what you have just said....

Christ, is this the way you solve your problems?

Fancy yourself a religious man? Maybe your worries can be allieviated w/ the following news. . .

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12942

if that's not taking the starch outta your collar maybe this will put the starch somewhere else. . .

http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=28244

no need to thank me [i'm really busy seriously considering your tortured attempts at dialogue]

 

[Guest]

If you can answer yes to that, well, **** bro, you're successful.

:appl: :bowdown: :respect:

JR

 

[maryannette]

As soon as I expressed a view which some did not like, I get insulted and the like... is that the way to have a discussion?

There is a good way to keep from getting "insulted and the like" ...

Stop posting provoking comments.

Okay, I changed the angry words to a more polite version.

 

[maryannette]

Oh, and I forgot ...

:banhim:

 

[Katiebug]

I'd say that survey only takes into account graduate level programs or research programs. Rose-Hulman and Harvey Mudd routinely kick MIT's *** at undergraduate engineering education, and they don't even make that list. I had a buddy that went to Carnegie Mellon for his undergrad, and he said that the courses were terrible. They were all taught by TAs that had a less-than-basic grasp of the English language. All of the full professors were too busy with their research projects and/or 700-level courses to give a damn about undergrads. I went to Rose, and they only offer a handful of Masters programs and no Doctorate degrees. If you had a problem with a homework question, you could call the prof at home or visit him in his office for help...it was great. Not to mention the fact that any research projects in the school were handled almost completely by the students, with minimal supervision by a faculty member.

Yup yup. I work with two guys who are Rose-Hulman grads and I've been impressed with their really solid fundamental engineering knowledge. I did my undergrad at UConn. Not a big name school, and we had our issues with non-engineering courses being taught by TAs whose grasp of English was poor. Every single physics and chem lab, and every math class that I took, was taught by a grad student, and I really struggled with multivariable calculus due to the very poor teaching ability of that particular TA. Fortunately, engineering courses were all taught by professors, most of whom were both excellent researchers AND excellent teachers. A friend who did his undergrad at MIT had a very different experience. Unfortunately for him, that experience cost him more than $100K in student loans - and he doesn't command any higher of a salary than me.

I work with a lot of international engineers. Our friends from Canada are really no different from most US grads in terms of education and the way they work. The accent is really the only way I can pick the Canadians out of the lineup, eh! We have a few from the UK and they're pretty much the same in terms of technical competence, although their educational system is very different. Western Europe: good technical knowledge, not much in the way of "soft" skills. My German colleagues come up with great designs and great manufacturing quality, but they're not much for conversation and business-related issues are left to specialists in that area.

I've struggled with some engineers from Asia in particular who are technically very knowledgeable but are hard to get new, innovative ideas out of. They're used to a different culture where you don't necessarily speak up and disagree with your superior if you think he's wrong or if you have a better idea. It's much more hierarchical and while they do great "cookie cutter" engineering, especially modeling or finite element work, ask them to design a new component from scratch and they often struggle in a big way. There's a lot of deference to age, experience, and education and it can be difficult to get these engineers to open up and participate as part of a development team, or to produce a real, functional design. I notice this most among those whose engineering education was solely in their country of origin; I know several others who did their undergrad in China/India/Korea and came to the US for grad school and this is much less of an issue. I suspect it's purely cultural.

Many of the good old guys and girls of this forum are veterans, married to veterans, or a close relative or friend of a veteran. A lot of people have had to sacrifice A LOT when it has come to the war in Iraq - making obtuse, broad-brushed statements about this country's involvement in that war is going to chafe, at best.

It's beating the dead horse and all that, but my brother's on active duty right now. I've grown to be against the Iraq war, but the kid knew what he was risking when he signed up. He knew the risks when he volunteered for his current unit. He knew the risks every time he's volunteered to go to Iraq (twice now; he keeps getting turned down because his billet requires specialized training and they can more easily send more of a generalist whose replacement won't take 6 months to get up to speed). It may just be his service, but we're all well aware that regardless of whatever job he's doing he's taking a risk. Totally unrelated to the Iraq war, he could go out on a SAR (search and rescue) case and not come back. It's part of the gig.

Want my opinion.... no, oh well, too bad, I'm an admin so I'll give it. Who gives a ****, do you get a paycheck every payday for doing your engineering job that you got by going to your engineering school? Can you feed your family and pay your mortgage with your degree? If you have to answer no to either of those questions then your degree ain't worth ****. If you can answer yes to both of those questions, then move to question 3. Can you have a little fun with the money you make after you've met your financial obligations? If you can answer yes to that, well, **** bro, you're successful.

Out-damn-standing. Agreed 100%!