Level of engineering education in the US

[Kephart P.E.]

I may be uniquely qualified to give some perspective on this subject.
I went to High School in a developing or third world Asian country. I got my degree from Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands (ranked 17 in the world). Worked for 5 years in Europe and moved to the US a few years ago. I have/am taking classes in a US University. I have also taken classes at my local community college (best value for your $$$).

The main difference I see in the US vs European System is...

In the US you are given every opportunity to learn and pass. In the European System your home work is not checked or graded, no mid-terms etc. Generally it is one final exam per quarter (mainland Europe not the UK). In other words you are given every opportunity to fail. Some may argue that at University level one should not be babied. My reply to that is that you are there to learn the subject matter and not to show how quickly you can pass exams.

Most top Asian Universities do not offer a broad practical Engineering curriculum. Hence most Asian Engineers who graduate from top Asian Universities are very good at the theory level but less so at the practical level. One Asian University that I do like is the Indian Institute of Technology (based on the US model).

Being a graduate from a leading European University I can say that in my humble opinion, a decent State University in the US produces better all round Engineers than most top European or Asian Universities.

By the way I read on the BBC news website that of all Nobel prizes won for academic works that the US leads the rest of the world by a whopping 70% or so. Not bad for a crappy University system eh... Hans?

Conclusion:

The "choice and level" of engineering programs or for that matter most academic program offered in the US beats the rest of the world by miles. As other posters pointed out given a choice, 90% of world engineering students would and do choose the US :unitedstates: .

I wish I had chosen the US instead of the flesh pots of Amsterdam... but that's another story.

Mike, you posted exactly what I have experienced as well. I am a Consultant Engineer and I interface with many European and Asian companies, mainly they sell equipment that my clients want to buy/install.

The European Engineers are about what I would expect of a Engineer from the US System, but most would never make it here in the US. Mostly because they are inflexible. They can't/don't want to convert units and or make things work in ways that they may not have been intended. We all know this is one of the most difficult things that our clients almost always want to do. And yes, I do feel like they "believe they are superior". Heck if I got a month of vacation every year I might think so too. But this is why their economies will never rival the US. Their Social System drags them down. Think of the people you know in the US that are on welfare/disability/unemployment that really don't deserve it (we all know at least one). Think about how many more their would be if we had the sort of social services that Germany/France/UK had.

On another note, I don't know what the Japanese teach their Engineers, but a few I thought were complete imbeciles, .......after a while I realized these dudes where very bright, but they could not think on their feet and would constantly be asking me questions and hoping I could fix everything for them. And yes I went to a lowly state school.

Don't get me started on China, if you have to work with them be afraid, very afraid or hope they went to a US School.

 

[txaggie]

I agree with what everyone else is saying pretty much. What little experience I have with international engineers I have found that they are ALL book smarts. They're great to hang out with because they can usually put away the beers as well but when it comes down to the practicality of their work...things usually don't go as well as they expect when they bring their ideas from the lab/office to the field. I think we, as American Engineering students/engineers we get a lot of good practical knowledge as well as classroom instruction.

 

[Carlito]

...it's the MAN (or woman) that makes the difference...

I think that sums it up nicely.

 

[jharris]

Here's a group that did a peer survey. Take it for what it's worth.
http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniver...ngs/technology/

Gee, I graduated in 2007 and my school isn't on that list. Oh well, I still consider myself a competent engineer with sound practical knowledge. I don't really care much about those stats anyway. There are several good engineering schools which didn't make that list. I'd take the best kid from Rowan University and put him up against Stanford's best any day of the week.

 

[mce01]

Engineering in the US is less hardcore in Math, which makes it kind of easier....but they are more practical and better overall I think

that's why people flock to the US to attend the engineers schools

 

[YaGoof]

Engineering in the US is less hardcore in Math, which makes it kind of easier....but they are more practical and better overall I thinkthat's why people flock to the US to attend the engineers schools

Anecdotal evidence on engineers is not particularly useful.......

How 'bout these macro-scale comparison:

Rolls Royce vs. GE Aircraft Engines vs. Pratt and Whitney

Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, BMW vs. Toyota, Honda, Hyundai vs. Ford, GM vs. Fiat, Ferarri

Boeing vs. Airbus

Candair vs. Embraer vs. Boeing

Samsung vs. Sony vs. Zenith

You'd be hard pressed to argue that American engineers win every one of these battles.....

Bottom line: it just depends.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

You'd be hard pressed to argue that American engineers win every one of these battles.....
Bottom line: it just depends.

You'd be hard pressed to argue that there aren't American engineers working for every single one of those companies.

 

[YaGoof]

You'd be hard pressed to argue that American engineers win every one of these battles.....
Bottom line: it just depends.

You'd be hard pressed to argue that there aren't American engineers working for every single one of those companies.

That's fair, given that we live in a global economy. But tell me what percentage? Is it a requirement that US engineering students learn Japanese/German/French/Portuguese/Mandarin Chinese?

How many German/French/Japanese engineers speak English? I'd venture to guess its a hell of a lot more.

Now if the definition of "American engineer" is "American-educated", that's different. According to "Engineering Trends" - the range is about 8-10% of BSc degrees are foreign nationals. For Masters degrees its about 50% and for PhDs, its about 73%.

http://www.engtrends.com/degrees1945-006.php

 

[Santiagj]

I would say american educated. In reality we are just comparing the education not the citizentry. I think?

 

[benbo]

Anecdotal evidence on engineers is not particularly useful.......

True, I don't see a lot other than anecdotal info (a list of companies) in your post, and one set of statistics that basically supports the notion of superior engineering education in the US.

Is it possible to read the topic of the thread and actually discuss that question? Quality of engineering education?

The statistic you post about foreign students only support the notion that foreign students value an American education. It doesn't really say why AMerican born engineers don't pursue advanced degreees. Possibly it's because they pursue jobs, which is also probably the main reason foreign national come to the US - at least before the recession.

So, if we actually want to address the topic of the thread, Engineering Education, why not look at official rankings -

http://www.arwu.org/ARWUFIELD2009ENG.jsp

 

[YaGoof]

Anecdotal evidence on engineers is not particularly useful.......

True, I don't see a lot other than anecdotal info (a list of companies) in your post, and one set of statistics that basically supports the notion of superior engineering education in the US.

Is it possible to read the topic of the thread and actually discuss that question? Quality of engineering education?

The statistic you post about foreign students only support the notion that foreign students value an American education. It doesn't really say why AMerican born engineers don't pursue advanced degreees. Possibly it's because they pursue jobs, which is also probably the main reason foreign national come to the US - at least before the recession.

So, if we actually want to address the topic of the thread, Engineering Education, why not look at official rankings -

http://www.arwu.org/ARWUFIELD2009ENG.jsp

I think my point is, this is protacted discussion with no ending, because any argument will rely, by default, on anectodal evidence. There are excellent engineers that are born and educated abroad or in the US and there are some really bad engineers that are born and educated abroad or in the US.

By quoting rankings we are right back where we started from. Some on this very board have argued that a degree from a Stanford or MIT means nothing.....some have suggested that a degree from Chinese Unversity should be viewed with skepticism

I invite you to read my last line:

"It just depends"

The top schools on the list you cite are "tops" primarily because of their graduate programs and the research money they attract. However, if you look at these programs, almost 50% of their students are foreign nationals....note that it is these same foreign nationals who are teaching assistants who educate undergraduate students.

I suggest you read the methodology:

http://www.arwu.org/FieldMethodology2009.jsp

How do you evaluate quality of education? In my view, ultimately, speaking as an engineer, it depends on products/results, ie. the graduants.

Do graduants produce products that kill people? Do their products last a long time? Are they reasonably priced? Are they on the cutting-edge of technology? Do they clothe, house and feed poor people? Do they result in increased mobility of capital and welfare?

This is precisely why I gave a list of companies. Because the objective of an education program is to produce professionals that are capable of engineering products that enhance the human experience. The term "human experience" is subjective. So the most logical way of making rational comparisions is to compare competing products that serve the same market.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

How do you evaluate quality of education? In my view, ultimately, speaking as an engineer, it depends on products/results, ie. the graduants.
Do graduants produce products that kill people? Do their products last a long time? Are they reasonably priced? Are they on the cutting-edge of technology? Do they clothe, house and feed poor people? Do they result in increased mobility of capital and welfare?

How is that a measure of what makes a good engineer? What if it's their job to make products that kill people (weapon systems)? What if they work for niche industries that sell disposable and/or luxury goods? Why would people design stuff just for people that can't afford to buy them?

That is quite possibly the silliest list of attributes I have ever seen assembled.

 

[benbo]

Anecdotal evidence on engineers is not particularly useful.......

True, I don't see a lot other than anecdotal info (a list of companies) in your post, and one set of statistics that basically supports the notion of superior engineering education in the US.

Is it possible to read the topic of the thread and actually discuss that question? Quality of engineering education?

The statistic you post about foreign students only support the notion that foreign students value an American education. It doesn't really say why AMerican born engineers don't pursue advanced degreees. Possibly it's because they pursue jobs, which is also probably the main reason foreign national come to the US - at least before the recession.

So, if we actually want to address the topic of the thread, Engineering Education, why not look at official rankings -

http://www.arwu.org/ARWUFIELD2009ENG.jsp

I think my point is, this is protacted discussion with no ending, because any argument will rely, by default, on anectodal evidence. There are excellent engineers that are born and educated abroad or in the US and there are some really bad engineers that are born and educated abroad or in the US.

By quoting rankings we are right back where we started from. Some on this very board have argued that a degree from a Stanford or MIT means nothing.....some have suggested that a degree from Chinese Unversity should be viewed with skepticism

I invite you to read my last line:

"It just depends"

The top schools on the list you cite are "tops" primarily because of their graduate programs and the research money they attract. However, if you look at these programs, almost 50% of their students are foreign nationals....note that it is these same foreign nationals who are teaching assistants who educate undergraduate students.

I suggest you read the methodology:

http://www.arwu.org/FieldMethodology2009.jsp

How do you evaluate quality of education? In my view, ultimately, speaking as an engineer, it depends on products/results, ie. the graduants.

Do graduants produce products that kill people? Do their products last a long time? Are they reasonably priced? Are they on the cutting-edge of technology? Do they clothe, house and feed poor people? Do they result in increased mobility of capital and welfare?

This is precisely why I gave a list of companies. Because the objective of an education program is to produce professionals that are capable of engineering products that enhance the human experience. The term "human experience" is subjective. So the most logical way of making rational comparisions is to compare competing products that serve the same market.

I am not the one who started this thread basically to bash American education as "easy". Once again, we are talking about the education, not the national origin of the students. If you want to admit that you cannot claim one group of engineers is necessarily better than another, fine, I'll agree with that.

I've read the methodology. THere's nothing wrong with it as a judgement of the quality of education. Graduate education is education, investment of research dollars is a valid measurement. And this is not the only ranking methodology that gives this basic listing. You just don't seem to like it.

Here's one at least partially based on peer and employer rankings -

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-...ings/technology

I'm not going to bother to look up any more, because it won't matter to you anyway.

The way I judge the quality of something is by its desirability in the marketplace. THe fact that so many foreign students come here, with very few going the other direction, leads me to believe they feel they will recieve a superior education here. As you point out, they are intelligent, so I assume they know what they are doing. What difference does it make that someone is born elsewhere? They value the education they recieve here. I don't know why you keep bringing this up.

A few more points -

1. If you go anywhere in the world and turn on a computer it likely has an Intel or Motorola processor. It is probably running on Windows or the Apple operating system. The major websites will be Google or Amazon. These are American companies. Yes, maybe Google's founders were born elsewhere, but they came here to study and found their company. In my former industries, defense, satellite communications, and semiconductor capital equipment the leading companies were all US. And I worked overseas a good deal so I saw it. In my current industry, the power industry, most gas turbines are GE, Rolls Royce, or Alstom, with GE very prevalent. A US, English, and French/Swiss company. Steam turbines – again GE, along with Siemens (but again, here we have Siemens Westinghouse).

2. The US is not a monolithic ancient principality like those in Europe and Asia. It is not millennia old. It is specifically composed of immigrants who come here for the opportunity. If there are a lot of international students entering US universities that speaks well to the accessibility and desirability of these universities. Plus, a lot of these students remain and work here. Both of those things are "plus 1" for the US in my book.

3. Why is it always the US, a single country of a few hundred million people, compared with everywhere else in the world, total? China has billions of people, no wonder they produce a lot of engineers at the top. The vast majority of the populace there are uneducated, with a very low standard of living. It's just a fact.