Important question regarding state rules for PE/FE exams

[Paul S]

I'm not sure I agree that failing the exam is the same as having an application for a license denied... but I'll give you the point. OK... 1-1.
Here's my next one from VA's application:

9.  Have you ever taken the Principles of Engineering (PE) examination in Virginia?

15.  Have you ever been subject to a disciplinary action imposed by any (including Virginia) local, state or national regulatory body?

Which one of us will give up first?

I think this can go on forever, maybe we can buy each other a beer? :beerchug:

This is from Conneticuit: Have you ever been refused by any State or Territory of the United States a license as a Professional Engineer, Land Surveyor, Engineer-in-Training or Land

Surveyor-in-Training or have you ever held such license which has lapsed, suspended or revoked? YES [ ] NO [ ]

If YES, please explain.

All of these depend on how you interpret the question, but in this case if the OP sent in his application one more time, they would be denying him the EIT license. If he does not send in the application to his own state he was never denied and therefore need not worry about these questions.

Do you agree that if the OP sends in his application and their state board will not let them take the test until the required waiting period, then they are being denied the license during that time frame?

 

[IlPadrino]

I think this can go on forever, maybe we can buy each other a beer? :beerchug:

I'll gladly buy you a beer (whenever you're in DC), but I'm good for a few more volleys! The FL FE Application only has the following:

Have you ever been convicted or found guilty, or entered a plea of guilty or nolo contendre regardless of adjudication, of a crime in any jurisdiction, or have you ever been found guilty by a military court-martial? (Do not include pending charges or non-criminal traffic violations.)

All of these depend on how you interpret the question, but in this case if the OP sent in his application one more time, they would be denying him the EIT license. If he does not send in the application to his own state he was never denied and therefore need not worry about these questions.
Do you agree that if the OP sends in his application and their state board will not let them take the test until the required waiting period, then they are being denied the license during that time frame?

No... I don't agree. In order to get an EI/EIT certification in any state, you need certain things. One of them is to pass the FE exam. Certain states won't let you take the exam more than three times unless you meet some other conditions (wait a period of time, for example). If you request to take the test, you have to apply. In many (most or all?) states, all you're doing is applying to take a test - it isn't a request for a license. As an example, consider FL where you apply to take the exam and then you're "certified" as an EI. If you want proof of certification, you send in another form.

Arghhh! If only jharris would have told us what state he was working with...

 

[Paul S]

I'll gladly buy you a beer (whenever you're in DC), but I'm good for a few more volleys!
No... I don't agree. In order to get an EI/EIT certification in any state, you need certain things. One of them is to pass the FE exam. Certain states won't let you take the exam more than three times unless you meet some other conditions (wait a period of time, for example). If you request to take the test, you have to apply. In many (most or all?) states, all you're doing is applying to take a test - it isn't a request for a license. As an example, consider FL where you apply to take the exam and then you're "certified" as an EI. If you want proof of certification, you send in another form.

Arghhh! If only jharris would have told us what state he was working with...

I do not agree with the generalizations of "most or all states", but I think this is a good discussion that actually may help others.

It appears that depending upon what state we are in and how denied is interpreted. I agree with your arguments, but the engineer in me needs to take the worst case! I will pose this question then, what would be an example or the definition of a denied FE/PE license? The only example (besides my previous argument) that I can think of that is close would be if you are a PE from a state that waived your FE exam applying for comity in another state that requires the FE exam. Are you denied the license because you did not take the FE or do you just not meet the requirements? Or are you denied the license until you meet the requirements?

 

[IlPadrino]

I do not agree with the generalizations of "most or all states", but I think this is a good discussion that actually may help others.

Yes... I think it's a good discussion, too - even if a bit confusing because there's a difference between being a "certified" EI/EIT and a "licensed" PE. Why do you consider the denial of taking an FE exam tantamount to being "denied a license"? For me, this is the real discussion.

It appears that depending upon what state we are in and how denied is interpreted. I agree with your arguments, but the engineer in me needs to take the worst case! I will pose this question then, what would be an example or the definition of a denied FE/PE license? The only example (besides my previous argument) that I can think of that is close would be if you are a PE from a state that waived your FE exam applying for comity in another state that requires the FE exam. Are you denied the license because you did not take the FE or do you just not meet the requirements? Or are you denied the license until you meet the requirements?

Good question... and your examples are probably the most common in addition to insufficient creditable experience. But what about felony convictions or moral issues?

To answer your questions specifically, I don't think ineligibility to take an exam equals denial of a license for the FE.

 

[Paul S]

Yes... I think it's a good discussion, too - even if a bit confusing because there's a difference between being a "certified" EI/EIT and a "licensed" PE. Why do you consider the denial of taking an FE exam tantamount to being "denied a license"? For me, this is the real discussion.

Good question, especially since I was more focused on the PE for this argument. At least in PA, if the EIT is passed, ones name will be listed in the license database as having an EIT License and a license number is provided. So if I applied to PA to take the FE exam, and the state board denied my application for any reason, then they are in turn denying the EIT License in PA. I don't think it matters if you are qualified or not for this discussion, if the board send you a letter in the mail saying you can not take the exam, then you are denied that license.

Good question... and your examples are probably the most common in addition to insufficient creditable experience. But what about felony convictions or moral issues?
To answer your questions specifically, I don't think ineligibility to take an exam equals denial of a license for the FE.

Insufficient experience and felonies are typically covered in different portions of the applications, and both of these will lead to being denied taking the exam. Can you elaborate on moral issues?

I also agree that ineligibility does not equal denial of license, as long as you do not apply. Let's say someone applies for the FE or PE by sending in the application and fees and all paperwork, and for whatever reason, that board sends back a letter stating that for whatever reason they will not allow you to take the exam. So that person, being resourceful looks to other states and finds a state in which all the requirements are fullfilled. But one of the questions on the application is "Have you ever been denied a PE or FE license or certificate previously." All I am really saying here is that morally and ethically, that person should answer yes, and then explain the situation with the other state. This answer should not change the decision of the state board as long as the applicant is eligible in that 2nd state.

 

[IlPadrino]

Good question, especially since I was more focused on the PE for this argument. At least in PA, if the EIT is passed, ones name will be listed in the license database as having an EIT License and a license number is provided. So if I applied to PA to take the FE exam, and the state board denied my application for any reason, then they are in turn denying the EIT License in PA. I don't think it matters if you are qualified or not for this discussion, if the board send you a letter in the mail saying you can not take the exam, then you are denied that license.
I also agree that ineligibility does not equal denial of license, as long as you do not apply. Let's say someone applies for the FE or PE by sending in the application and fees and all paperwork, and for whatever reason, that board sends back a letter stating that for whatever reason they will not allow you to take the exam. So that person, being resourceful looks to other states and finds a state in which all the requirements are fullfilled. But one of the questions on the application is "Have you ever been denied a PE or FE license or certificate previously." All I am really saying here is that morally and ethically, that person should answer yes, and then explain the situation with the other state. This answer should not change the decision of the state board as long as the applicant is eligible in that 2nd state.

It would seem that in PA, you're applying to take a test and if you pass, you're automatically given a license. What's at the top of the application form, "EI Application" or "FE Exam"?

Regardless, you agree that so long as you don't ask to take the FE test the fourth time, you're OK with checking "no" to the "ever been denied a license" question? The sea lawyer in me also suggest "a license" refers to a PE license (as opposed to a hair dresser's license).

And that leads me to another direction... I think NCEES is against the idea of "exam shopping" where candidates find a state more favorable to their situation. Anyone have any information on this?

 

[Paul S]

It would seem that in PA, you're applying to take a test and if you pass, you're automatically given a license. What's at the top of the application form, "EI Application" or "FE Exam"?
Regardless, you agree that so long as you don't ask to take the FE test the fourth time, you're OK with checking "no" to the "ever been denied a license" question? The sea lawyer in me also suggest "a license" refers to a PE license (as opposed to a hair dresser's license).

I have run out of steam and declare you victorious in this discussion, and owe you a beer! I just perused the PA FE application and it is basically labeled as a scheduling form for the FE exam, the PE application as "Application for examination, Professional Engineer". However the FE application does ask this question:

Have you ever withdrawn an application, had an application denied or refused, or agreed not to reapply

for a license, certification or registration in another state, territory or country?

I do agree that if the OP does not apply to their state, then they are free to do as they wish on other state applications and have no reason to indicated anything was denied. If this was what we were arguing then I owe you several beers!

On the PA license search website you can search for PE FE, and many other licensed professionals, such as Barbers.

 

[IlPadrino]

I have run out of steam...

Good thing, because I didn't have much left myself! In the interest of harmony, I'll buy *YOU* the beer but you'll have to come to DC to collect.

 

[Paul S]

Good thing, because I didn't have much left myself! In the interest of harmony, I'll buy *YOU* the beer but you'll have to come to DC to collect.

Fair enough! :beerchug:

 

[easygoing]

Thanks, IlPadrino. I'm going to apply in another state this week. I've looked at Testmasters but I can't afford it. Judging by the diagnostic report, I'm inching closer to the mark, but I think I haven't given myself enough time to study and I hadn't done enough practice exams. I understand most of the material and it hasn't been hard to self-teach myself the material I wasn't familiar with. I think I'm getting burnt out in the afternoon. This time I'm going to begin studying sooner and take some practice exams a decent time in advance of the test.

Which state will you be taking the exam? I know in New York City, there are several options for the review classes, like PERC. It has been around for a long time and I recommend it. Some advice is to stick strickly to the NCEES exam specs. Don't get bogged down on a question...it should take you about 15 seconds to read the problem, if you don't know it, then move on. I hope this helps.