BS Engineering with Law Degree

[Dleg]

I agree. I've seen this play out here: if PEs are too hard to come by, both business and government will begin to turn to foreign workers (non-PEs) to fill engineer positions, which drives down both the pay and demand for "real" PEs, and ultimately also reduces the public's respect for the profession (as quality declines....)

I truly despise all this talk about ways to increase the "status" of the engineering profession, through superficial means such as limiting the number of PEs that are licensed or through extra schooling for the sake of appearances. Society will always view engineers as engineers. What I mean by that is this: we are viewed as the technical gurus that society cannot live without, when it comes to designing, operating, and maintaining the infrastructure and technology that society depends on. The only way engineers can make themselves more valuable is to do as good a job as possible. NOT by wearing a tie, or having some fancy degree, or wearing wingtips and acting like a lawyer or doctor, and certainly NOT by artificially attempting to manipulate the market by limiting the number of engineers that can be licensed.

 

[picusld]

I agree. I've seen this play out here: if PEs are too hard to come by, both business and government will begin to turn to foreign workers (non-PEs) to fill engineer positions, which drives down both the pay and demand for "real" PEs, and ultimately also reduces the public's respect for the profession (as quality declines....)
I truly despise all this talk about ways to increase the "status" of the engineering profession, through superficial means such as limiting the number of PEs that are licensed or through extra schooling for the sake of appearances. Society will always view engineers as engineers. What I mean by that is this: we are viewed as the technical gurus that society cannot live without, when it comes to designing, operating, and maintaining the infrastructure and technology that society depends on. The only way engineers can make themselves more valuable is to do as good a job as possible. NOT by wearing a tie, or having some fancy degree, or wearing wingtips and acting like a lawyer or doctor, and certainly NOT by artificially attempting to manipulate the market by limiting the number of engineers that can be licensed.

The value of the PE comes from the ability for an individual to take on the responsibility and liability for a paticular job that is sealed, not from the amount of effort that is put into the job or how good a job that is done. There are individuals at my company that are probably better designers than myself, but due to their inability to take responsibility legally for the job, I am worth more to the company.

Unfortnately, I think that your disdain and desire to set yourself apart from doctors and lawyers is shared among many PEs which is why we are ultimately not paid like them.

A quick google of a plumber's hourly rate is between 100-200 an hour. My rate is around 110. Something just does not seem right about that...

 

[IlPadrino]

A quick google of a plumber's hourly rate is between 100-200 an hour. My rate is around 110. Something just does not seem right about that...

That doesn't sound right...

According to PayScale: Plumbers are making less than Engineers.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

That doesn't sound right...
According to PayScale: Plumbers are making less than Engineers.

He's talking about bill rate, not pay rate. Engineers take home more of their billable rate than plumbers, but are billed out at a lower hourly rate. I have a feeling that this is due to the infrastructure required for a plumbing company. They need to have trucks, tools, some inventory of parts, heavy equipment, etc. to be effective plumbers, so the rate increases while take home pay remains the same. If you give an engineer a desk and a computer, we can do our jobs.

 

[picusld]

That doesn't sound right...
According to PayScale: Plumbers are making less than Engineers.

I would agree that there yearly salary is less since plumbers are most likely not able to bill 40 hrs a week, but lets speculate that there hourly rate is $70-$90 with hikes during off hour services. The rate is still in the same ball park.

Plus, I don't think that they need to worry about being dragged into an ADA, trip and fall, etc... lawsuit 10 yrs after performing the service where the plaintiff could possibly go after their house if the E&O insurance has lapsed at their original company for any reason.

My point is that by sealing a plan, an engineer is taking on liability that can easily be tracked through recordable plans and public testimony given to get a project approved. Even if an accident is a consequence of no design flaw, the engineer and company still have to pay attorneys to defend their position.

 

[Roy T.]

first off - i've found a lot of these "pay rate" web sites to provide completely bogus numbers. Generally very much on the LOW side. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I suspect HR departments and hiring departments influence the published numbers but don't reflect real wages they have to pay up to get qualified talent. take the published numbers, particularly the ones you find on web sites - with a huge grain of salt.

As far as the PE -- we can bark all day about how valuable we are for a company and how we take responsibility and liability and at the end of the day --- get ignored. The "PE" is simply not as established as some other professions and we must fight for recognition every day. A lot of progress has been made to earn respect - but don't kid yourself. There are still many companies out there that hire the token PE to sign and seal and take "liability" for areas where it's necessary, but really don't show the title much respect.

Also, don't underestimate corporate americas willingness to simply ignore the law AND get away with it.

 

[resolve-engineering]

I am a PE with A&E, mechancial contractor and nuclear experience and have an MBA from a pretty decent school. The MBA can help you, as it did in my case, land a position at a higher level at a younger age. I got the MBA with the intention of landing a corporate level job quicker and possibly looking to leave the A&E world and entertain a more profitable business model(from a total NET standpoint, not necessarily from a margin standpoint).

People ask: why a PE with an MBA?

Here is your answer: MBA plus technical background helps you become an executive of corporation thats core business is highly technical. Having an understanding of engineering paired with finance knowledge/corporate strategy helps you lead tehcncial companies at a younger age rather than waiting your turn in line and climbing the Jr. Engr.. Sr Engr...Program Manager ladder.

I chose this path conciously as the business model for manaufacturers and contractors can be much more lucrative than a model in whcih you are billing other peoples hourly rates.

Bottom line however, do not go get an MBA without 3-5 years of expereince or else it can/will be useless. Who wants to hire someone with an MBA that screams "i know how to run a busness' without any real world experience?

Also, MBAs are like LAw degrees in that you MUST go to a top school for them to even make a real differenec in the eyes of most companies. Do an MBA at an Averitt/online school and you get coffee with that donut. No offense, but that it how it is. I kick myself for not going top 20. I went top 50. Put it this way, post MBA salaries go from 160K at a top school down to 55K(no change) at a run of the mill state university. School means everything.

 

[Casey]

Never in my life did I think i would say this... but the future - in terms of well paying job - is in..... ENGINEERING
I would go so far as to say it doesn't even matter which branch you start out in - mechanical, civil, electrical, chemical... go into a high-dollar industry and the sky is the limit. lots more jobs in those industries (energy, oil and gas, process) than in law.

devon energy average salary for it's engineers is $175k. plus, even in a down market, it's a *lot* easier to start an engineering practice than a law practice.

Forget law school. Get your PE

A bit offtopic....

Roy,

I didn't think the owner/operators generally hired civil/structural engineers. I'm on the EPC side of things and with my interactions with the O&G companies, most of their engineers or managers with an engineering background are process, mechanical or electrical. How did you get in? And do you actually do any civil/structural work there?

And while the money on the EPC side is nice, I believe it is even nicer on the owner's side, with that said does Devon have any openings in the Calgary office? :eyebrows:

Thanks

 

[outatime2002]

^^ Are you hiring? $175k my ass. Find me an engineer making over $100k anywhere on this board and I'll be impressed. I'm making $82k and I've been out of school (with a M.S.) for almost 6 years now.

I was making 70k right out of college in 2007 only with an EIT license. I am now making around $85k still without a PE license. I'm guessing that as soon as I get my PE i will be in 6 figs. All of my superiors are making $150k plus. Where is the money at? Petrochemical facilities.