At least 20 people killed in shooting at Texas church

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Gun ownership is beyond debate, as mentioned before. Our founding fathers royally ****** that one up. For some interesting reading sometime, check out some of the Supreme Court opinions on the 2nd Amendment. The majority has always held that the language pertains to more than just arming the National Guard ("a well regulated militia") AND that it does not exclude military-type weapons, but both the majority and minority opinions note that the original language is very vague, and they even 'wish" here and there that the founding fathers had inserted just one or two more words (e.g., "self defense") to make it more clear what they were implying. 

Regardless, this isn't the early 19th century and an semi-automatic rifle with a 30 round magazine is not comparable to a muzzle-loading rifle. There's still room for legal debate. 

 
Because they are a perceived detriment.  However, saying we outlaw "most" narcotics is untrue.  There are far more prescription drugs on the market than there are banned substances.  Much like guns, there are already class systems in place for those which are "outlawed" based on how they are perceived as "unhealthy".  Yet interestingly enough, despite increases in "illicit" drug use, we are looking to decriminalize some of them (e.g. marijuana).
Exactly.

 
One of the most convincing (and potentially hopeless) explanations of mass shootings yet:

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/why-do-mass-shootings-happen-best-explanation/

The Best Explanation for Our Spate of Mass Shootings Is the Least Comforting





By DAVID FRENCH



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May 18, 2018 2:37 PM





On another terrible day, I hate to introduce even more pessimism, but when we discuss mass shootings, one of the first questions we ask is the simplest and also the hardest to answer. Why? Why does this keep happening? Those who advocate for gun control have an immediate answer — the prevalence of guns in the United States. Yet guns have been part of the fabric of American life for the entire history of our republic. Mass shootings — especially the most deadly mass shootings — are a far more recent phenomenon.

Writing in 2015, Malcolm Gladwell wrote what I think is still the best explanation for modern American mass shootings, and it’s easily the least comforting. At the risk of oversimplifying a complex argument, essentially he argues that each mass shooting lowers the threshold for the next. He argues, we are in the midst of a slow-motion “riot” of mass shootings, with the Columbine shooting in many ways the key triggering event. Relying on the work of Stanford sociologist Mark Granovetter, Gladwell notes that it’s a mistake to look at each incident independently:


But Granovetter thought it was a mistake to focus on the decision-making processes of each rioter in isolation. In his view, a riot was not a collection of individuals, each of whom arrived independently at the decision to break windows. A riot was a social process, in which people did things in reaction to and in combination with those around them. Social processes are driven by our thresholds—which he defined as the number of people who need to be doing some activity before we agree to join them. In the elegant theoretical model Granovetter proposed, riots were started by people with a threshold of zero—instigators willing to throw a rock through a window at the slightest provocation. Then comes the person who will throw a rock if someone else goes first. He has a threshold of one. Next in is the person with the threshold of two. His qualms are overcome when he sees the instigator and the instigator’s accomplice. Next to him is someone with a threshold of three, who would never break windows and loot stores unless there were three people right in front of him who were already doing that—and so on up to the hundredth person, a righteous upstanding citizen who nonetheless could set his beliefs aside and grab a camera from the broken window of the electronics store if everyonearound him was grabbing cameras from the electronics store.



Gladwell then argues that Columbine changed the thresholds. The first seven of the “major” modern school-shooting incidents were “disconnected and idiosyncratic.”


Then came Columbine. The sociologist Ralph Larkin argues that Harris and Klebold laid down the “cultural script” for the next generation of shooters. They had a Web site. They made home movies starring themselves as hit men. They wrote lengthy manifestos. They recorded their “basement tapes.” Their motivations were spelled out with grandiose specificity: Harris said he wanted to “kick-start a revolution.” Larkin looked at the twelve major school shootings in the United States in the eight years after Columbine, and he found that in eight of those subsequent cases the shooters made explicit reference to Harris and Klebold. Of the eleven school shootings outside the United States between 1999 and 2007, Larkin says six were plainly versions of Columbine; of the eleven cases of thwarted shootings in the same period, Larkin says all were Columbine-inspired.



Here’s the most ominous part of the Gladwell thesis. The “low threshold” shooters are motivated by “powerful grievances,” but as the riot spreads, the justifications are often manufactured, and the shooters more and more “normal.” Here’s Gladwell’s chilling conclusion:


In the day of Eric Harris, we could try to console ourselves with the thought that there was nothing we could do, that no law or intervention or restrictions on guns could make a difference in the face of someone so evil. But the riot has now engulfed the boys who were once content to play with chemistry sets in the basement. The problem is not that there is an endless supply of deeply disturbed young men who are willing to contemplate horrific acts. It’s worse. It’s that young men no longer need to be deeply disturbed to contemplate horrific acts.



In other contexts, he’s elaborated further. The preparations for massacres are often extremely detailed. Shooters (and wannabe shooters) will often film videos, mimic the dress and poses of the Columbine killers, and otherwise copy the shooters who came before. Gladwell is hardly an NRA conservative — and he believes gun control “has its place” — but he also shares this grim warning: “Let’s not kid ourselves that if we passed the strictest gun control in the world that we would end this particular kind of behavior.”

COMMENTS
Indeed, it’s the pattern of elaborate preparation and obsession with the subculture of mass shooters that has led in part to my own advocacy of the gun-violence restraining order. While we don’t have sufficient details about today’s shooter in Texas to know if it would have made a difference, it’s a fact that large numbers of mass shooters broadcast warning signals of their intent to do harm, and it’s also a fact that family members and other relevant people close to the shooter have few tools at their disposal to prevent violence. A gun-violence restraining order can allow a family member (or school principal) to quickly get in front of a local judge for a hearing (with full due-process protections) that can result in the temporaryconfiscation of weapons from a proven dangerous person.

While early reports are often wrong, there are indications that the Texas shooter engaged in behavior that sounds eerily like the Columbine shooting. We’ve seen reports of a trench coat, of the use of similar weapons, and of explosives — all hallmarks of the Colorado massacre. When I think of Columbine, I think of Gladwell’s essay. There are young men in the grip of a terrible contagion, and there is no cure coming.

 
I read Eric Harris mothers book a few months ago - pretty depressing yet intriguing, I found it alarming that both Killers were arrested the year before for breaking into a van and stealing several thousands of dollars in electronic equipment & other stuff - but they got out of doing jail time for some some type of "program / counseling" for first offenders (progressive agenda)... I don't know who the judges / DA's / Attorneys were for that deal but I hope they have as many sleepless nights as the victims families.. might be time to stop looking at first offenders as the victims of society and lock their ***** up for a few months instead of going to counseling..

 
I read Eric Harris mothers book a few months ago - pretty depressing yet intriguing, I found it alarming that both Killers were arrested the year before for breaking into a van and stealing several thousands of dollars in electronic equipment & other stuff - but they got out of doing jail time for some some type of "program / counseling" for first offenders (progressive agenda)... I don't know who the judges / DA's / Attorneys were for that deal but I hope they have as many sleepless nights as the victims families.. might be time to stop looking at first offenders as the victims of society and lock their ***** up for a few months instead of going to counseling..
Interesting.  A long time ago (1998!) in Casper, WY I worked for exactly one of those “programs/counseling for first offenders”.  Kids, usually around 12-13, who did something illegal we’re allowed to go through the program instead of getting anything permanent on their record for a first offense.  Some kids it genuinely seemed to help - the ones who were acting out because they had no supervision after school and just wanted attention.  They were the ones who just kept coming because they liked hanging out and doing the activities.  But there were others who obviously had criminal careers ahead of them.  They hated being there - they just did their time and moved on.

 
I watched the Showtime Active Shooter episode on Columbine and it was interesting how they showed the differences between Harris and Klebold. Harris was homicidal- he wanted to kill people. Klebold was suicidal- he wanted to die and was willing to go along with whatever. 

The article Dleg posted is interesting to think about, but also a little like The Onion article that pops up for this. https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1823016659

 
I watched the Showtime Active Shooter episode on Columbine and it was interesting how they showed the differences between Harris and Klebold. Harris was homicidal- he wanted to kill people. Klebold was suicidal- he wanted to die and was willing to go along with whatever. 

The article Dleg posted is interesting to think about, but also a little like The Onion article that pops up for this. https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1823016659
I need a Klebold chick.

 
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