America is NOT the greatest country in the world anymore

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Are there more because they are so much smarter and well-educated, or is it because the standards are lower?
Those professors that I know are equally underwhelmed by the skill level of undergraduates as well.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen some awesome things that young people are doing (see the link above about the kid who made a glove for translating ASL), I just don't know if there are enough students out there right now who are truly driven towards innovation to keep the US as THE leader in science and engineering...
The standards are not lower. The standards are higher at the top end. It is not uncommon for kids to take Algebra II in middle school these days. That was almost unheard of in my 1970s high school . Many kids at my sons high school were taking multivariable calculus and linear algebra as juniors in high school. I have looked at old entrance exams for MIT and Harvard from the 1950s and 60s. Unless you think we need to know Greek and Latin, believe me, the standards in math and science are higher.

I've looked at archived catalogs from the UC schools. Algebra and trig were common starting subjects. Nowadays they call that remedial math.

Which professors? Where do they teach?

 
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Those professors that I know are equally underwhelmed by the skill level of undergraduates as well.
Yeah well, chalk me up as being equally underwhelmed at the skill level of some of these 'PhD' professors - it ain't very pretty. No offense to you or the professors you know...

 
Those professors that I know are equally underwhelmed by the skill level of undergraduates as well.
Yeah well, chalk me up as being equally underwhelmed at the skill level of some of these 'PhD' professors - it ain't very pretty. No offense to you or the professors you know...
I wouldn't disagree with that...that's part of the problem. I also know some PhD professors who are where they are because "those who can't do, teach."

Edit: I wouldn't be so worried about it if one of those PhDs had told me this...

 
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What say I, MS? I didn't get a chance to watch the vid until now... and now that I have watched it three times, I'll respond. I'm sure everyone is going to expect me to say something completely different than what I think. I'm sure that you all have seen me rant and rave about the pride that I have in this country and how I would never live anywhere else... although that it is true, there is truth in what is spoken.

I really don't think this is about education standards, it's not about the space program, it's not about our infrastructure, clean water, electricity being available... or anyone being better than the good ole' USA .

I really and honestly feel like the point is, that as a country, we have lost our humility, our generosity, our respect for others and our morals.

Take a step back and THINK about things. How bad did things get back in the 1930's before the government stepped in to start helping people? How bad are things now before they stepped in to assist? Sure, we survived a Civil War in the mid-1800's but WHY? Why was there so much support when we entered into WWII, yet so much doubt when we engaged in war following the bombing of the world trade center? How many people in this country take the easy way out and pay their student loans back when the IRS garnishes their tax refunds? How many people buy their first home when they are in their early 20's and utilize the incentive programs out there rather than save up their nickles and dimes for a down payment... and how many of those homes actually become homes rather than houses?

There are many, many, MANY people in this country that have just stopped caring. They know they will be cared for when they fail, so they give up with out trying and fail with out any effort. And communities... well, we don't have to have morals. Most don't have to help out the homeless, or the starving, or the people who are down on their luck, because the government will help them. Sometimes, I really don't think this country is all that great... when I drive around and see cars with ball sacks hanging from their bumbers, when I hire a company and they don't take pride in their work and do a shoddy job, when I see people divided between the political parties arguing over what is 'right' and 'wrong' and they preach but don't practice. I see people abuse the charities we do have. I see people go to church, and then give each other the middle finger in the parking lot. I see people who say they will do the right thing, and then turn around and do the opposite.

We are in an age where high schoolers don't have to be embarrassed at the drug store when they buy condoms because they can get them for free at the front office of the school. Kid's don't have fist fights and resolve their differences on their own, and adults don't know how to have an itelligent conversation to settle theirs. People judge each other, they have lost their tolerance for what is different naturally, and in ignorance they have forgotten to set boundaries for what is socially acceptable because they are scared of being accused of the loss of tolerance... although this usually applies for those things that are different unnaturally.

In spite of all that. Personally, I would rather live in no other place. Personally, I see the good that is there. I've mentioned elsewhere, here and there, that I'm married to the military. In the middle of a PCS, he's been in a different state for over 6 months. I'm on my own here and I see the potential for this country in so many ways. The ten people who gave up their time to come help me and pack and load up the storage/moving pods. The old men at work that have given me advice on ways to keep on keeping on. The really, really strange guy that came up and knocked on my door this weekend to let me know he had noticed some people eyeing the storage units in the driveway. My boss that said I didn't actually have to give a two week notice. My neighbor who brought over food because she knows I don't have anything to cook with. My friends at the gym, my comrades who support me thru EB or FB or in person.

These are the people that make this country great for me. I think it's unfortunate that things are so often on such a small scale. I think it's unfortunate that we often don't pull together as a larger community unless a disaster hits.

We are all in the mind-set that we deserve things. Do we really? One of the biggest things I have discussed recently, and it's because most people ask questions that will probably make me feel sorry for myself. I won't let that happen, we do what we have to do. I am not perfect. I make mistakes nearly everyday, and I look at those and say, well that was stupid, lets move on and not do that again. BUT... I wonder if more people had to suffer just a bit, how much greater this country would be. Are we the greatest country in the world because we don't have much suffering? Or are we becoming weak because of that?

 
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top ten, engineering
Professors are a bellyaching lot. Especially at top schools where they really don't want to teach undergrads anyway.

The habit of professors complaing they teach a bunch of incompetent nincompoops is nothing new. It was nonsense then, it's nonsense now.

http://tech.mit.edu/...cuafa2.27n.html

As far as not enough STEM students, and STEM students of low quality, that's not my experience hiring over the past couple years. We get a lot of incredible applicants, and we're turning away kids with very high GPAs in double majors from UC Berkeley and UCLA.

If anything there is a glut of STEM majors these days. I think it may be worse in Biology, which is still a very popular major at many school, primarlily because of kids hoping to geti nto the limited number of med school slots. When they can't get in, there aren't enough places in biotech or academia for them.

One problem that does exist is that many of the smartest kids (even physics or engineering students) choose to seek the mother lode in investment banking or management consulting. That's unfortunate, but it's a free world.

But anyway, this is my experience. I've had this same exact discussion many times over my 30+ year working career. I don't suspect I'll change anybody's mind. I just hope there ends up being enough actual work for all these STEM majors we're begging for.

 
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I would gather to say that a lot of people commenting here didnt watch the video......
Videos are blocked at work and I don't get on the net at home anymore unless it is to update Netflix.

When I was teaching, I taught high school kids, tech school students, and prisoners. There were moments of hope and despair, but all through out history, it has been the genius/ambitious few that propelled the country forward. Others work on the periphery to refine and produce the work of those few.

I'm more worried about those in power (both in and out of the political realm) using their muscle to hinder our forward progress than I am a lack of people that can propel us forward.

For example, I'm still uber pi$$ed about Obama killing Constellation, but danged if it doesn't look like the private sector is picking up the slack (and I apologize to wil for comments I made to him on the subject...in retrospect he appears t have been correct on that front) and I wouldn't be surprised to see SpaceX on the moon before the Chinese. IF the government doesn't eff them over some way.

MS, you're the most important part of mini-MS's education, and he'll do well with your support. THAT'S the real problem with education...kids whose parents don't care. it is gonna be tougher when he's a teen, because of the peer pressure, and he'll stumble, but with your support and a sense of curiosity instilled, I have no doubt he'll do well.

 
What struck me was that most US Taxpayers just dont have the stomach for investing in anything to help maintain existing infrastructure, let alone anything new that will help them down the road...

This same feeling permeates throughout every type of undertaking.... such to the talk of privatize NASA.. serioulsy??

Of course I am the engineer who daily seeks to find work outside of this field so maybe I am the crazy one!

 
What struck me was that most US Taxpayers just dont have the stomach for investing in anything to help maintain existing infrastructure, let alone anything new that will help them down the road...
I think that comes from the governments' poor showing on such projects recently. Seems they can't get anything accomplished without cost and time over-runs of at least 50%.

People are becoming less and less trustful of the government.

 
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What struck me was that most US Taxpayers just dont have the stomach for investing in anything to help maintain existing infrastructure, let alone anything new that will help them down the road...
I think that comes from the governments' poor showing on such projects recently. Seems they can't get anything accomplished without cost and time over-runs of at least 50%.

People are becoming less and less trustful of the government.
especially when they read this in the newspapers:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_19220140

 
What say I, MS? I didn't get a chance to watch the vid until now... and now that I have watched it three times, I'll respond. I'm sure everyone is going to expect me to say something completely different than what I think. I'm sure that you all have seen me rant and rave about the pride that I have in this country and how I would never live anywhere else... although that it is true, there is truth in what is spoken.

I really don't think this is about education standards, it's not about the space program, it's not about our infrastructure, clean water, electricity being available... or anyone being better than the good ole' USA .

I really and honestly feel like the point is, that as a country, we have lost our humility, our generosity, our respect for others and our morals.

Take a step back and THINK about things. How bad did things get back in the 1930's before the government stepped in to start helping people? How bad are things now before they stepped in to assist? Sure, we survived a Civil War in the mid-1800's but WHY? Why was there so much support when we entered into WWII, yet so much doubt when we engaged in war following the bombing of the world trade center? How many people in this country take the easy way out and pay their student loans back when the IRS garnishes their tax refunds? How many people buy their first home when they are in their early 20's and utilize the incentive programs out there rather than save up their nickles and dimes for a down payment... and how many of those homes actually become homes rather than houses?

There are many, many, MANY people in this country that have just stopped caring.
World War II is completely different than the WTC. And I totally disagree that we have stopped caring. Consider WWII. Up until Pearl Harbor, the U.S. was actively practicing isolationism. By the time we got involved, Hitler had taken over most of Europe. As a country we had deliberatiely decided we didn't care. This would be unfathomable today. As soon as tanks the tanks rolled out of Germany we'd be there in a heartbeat. In contrast to your claim, I think we care more now that we did in the late 30's.

In my opinion the response to WTC shows how much MORE patriotic we are now than we were than back then. Yes, the country pulled together in a united effort after Pearl Harbor, but that was in response to a different kind of threat, one where someone might actually invade and take over this country by force. If that were to happen again today I'm sure our response would be the same.

 
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Again, this is not about "which one is the greatest". This is about Americans blindly believing that the USA is the greatest in every aspect when, in actuality, we're not doing very well in the most critical areas. Watching the video help.

 
^^^

The video is classic Aaron Sorkin liberal dialog, masquerading as some sort of refreshingly honest political heroism. A good deal of it is nonsense, or frankly irrelevant to the "greatness" of a country. For the rest, my question is... "Okay, so we have low literacy, what are we supposed to do about it? " Sorkin's answer - whether he says it or not - get past those mean conservatives and spend more Federal money.

The real tell here is that crap about a "war on the poor."

But there is good news. We have an election coming up. If you agree with the sentiments and political position of the author who wrote this dialog you can vigorously support the current President, then we'll increase those taxes on the rich and get to work on those math abilites. If that's what people think is the right course of action, then it should prevail That's one good thing about this country.

If you believe what made this country great in the past and what will make it great in the future is to generally get out of the people's way (as in what those "evil idiot" conservatives said in the video clip), leave the schools systems generally up to local control or give kids options through school choice, then you vote the other way.

We'll probably end up with some sort of hybrid anyway.

 
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I really don't care about any political motivation in the video. It nicely pointed out the point that most people in this country currently view the country as untouchable. For the most part, despite any liberal intents, the points conveyed are an accurate portrayal of this country's state.

 
I really don't care about any political motivation in the video. It nicely pointed out the point that most people in this country currently view the country as untouchable. For the most part, despite any liberal intents, the points conveyed are an accurate portrayal of this country's state.
The video is a laundry list of unmiportant statistics mixed in with more than a few mischaracterizations of opinion as facts.

Anybody in any country (including ours) can come up with a valid list of complaints. The question is whether the system in place is adequate to address the problems, and whether there is an appropriate method in place to change the system if it isn't. That, along with the ethos of the people is what makes a country great (again, I avod the term "greatest"). I don't think any of that has changed significantly. THat's a whole lot more important than the percentage of kids who can perform partial fraction expansion.

And of course, the question of what you would do about it is always relevant if you want to bellyache. I'm sure Sorkin's character would continue to lambast the "presence of money in politics" or "gridlock". Unless he did and I just fell asleep before that.

Edit: I took out the mention of the President because that belongs in the political forum. Sorry about that. Whenever I read Sorkin's work I always think politics.

 
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But I sincerely hope you get your choice of President Obama in November,so he can get our government to work fixing all that ails America
Excuse me? :jerkit:

Master slacker said:
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^^^

Really, I didn't hear the speech where Mitt Romney claimed we were at war with the poor like Jeff Daniels did in your favorite speech of all time. But keep up the important work that your smiley is performing there. That should surely bring about the utopia you seek. At least for you.

 
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^^^

Really, I didn't hear the speech where Mitt Romney claimed we were at war with the poor like Jeff Daniels did in your favorite speech of all time. But keep up the important work that your smiley is performing there. That should surely bring about the utopia you seek. At least for you.
:rolleyes:

Civilized discussion to launching meritless, personal attacks plan has been a success. Congratulations.

 
I'm just glad his wrath was directed elsewhere this time. I saw that Benbo had posted in this thread, and assumed he was bashing me.

 
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