Non-Theists More Intelligent than Theists?

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wilheldp_PE said:
Theists (with few exceptions) are hurt by organized religion in general. This is especially true for Judeo-Christians. Christians, Jews, Protestants and Muslims all believe in the same God. The only difference is which holy texts they choose to believe in and which prophets they choose to follow. For the most part, they each believe that the texts/prophets they have chosen are correct and anybody who chooses different texts/prophets are wrong and going to some sort of hell. This is particularly problematic because most of the texts were written during the same time period by people professing to be inspired by divine intervention. You literally can't believe all of the texts because they are contradictory. If they were all written with divine intervention, how do you reconcile the differences? This is why fundamentalists infuriate me. You cannot state facts...you can only state what you believe to be the facts. But "facts" by their very definition do not require belief...they just are. Similarly, atheists infuriate me because they try to state as fact that there is no god (lowercase). This also cannot be proven, therefore it cannot be fact.

I also don't buy into religion as a substitute for morals. Sure, there are some good parables in the bible that can instill morals in people. There are far more secular parables that can do the same thing. And good parenting, mentoring, and education can do far more to instill morals than dragging kids to church to hear about fire and brimstone if they don't brush their teeth at night. Plus, in moral capacity, I think Judeo-Christian relations fall far behind other religions such as Buddhism. I don't think there is a war in history fought over Buddhism. How many Christian faiths can claim that?
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I agree with a lot of what you said wPE but I would argue a few things too. I'm not so sure that the Abrahamic religions all worship the same god. While the Christian/Catholic/Protestant God may be the same God, I don't see how anyone can say that is the same God of Judaism or Islam. Per the Christian, the God of the Old Testament is also the God of the New Testament but to the Jew, the God of the NT is not the same God of the OT. To the Muslim, the God of the OT and/or NT is not the God of the Quran. Why do you think they are the same gods?



Also, your definition of Atheism is not correct. I already posted the definition in post #76. Atheism makes no claim of fact. It is simply a personal lack of belief in gods.

 
ptatohed said:
I agree with a lot of what you said wPE but I would argue a few things too. I'm not so sure that the Abrahamic religions all worship the same god. While the Christian/Catholic/Protestant God may be the same God, I don't see how anyone can say that is the same God of Judaism or Islam. Per the Christian, the God of the Old Testament is also the God of the New Testament but to the Jew, the God of the NT is not the same God of the OT. To the Muslim, the God of the OT and/or NT is not the God of the Quran. Why do you think they are the same gods?
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Why do you think they must be different? Christianity started as not it's own religion, but a sect of Judaism, so it's perfectly sensible to think that the two worship the same God just as you would think that Catholic/Protestant do. As far as Islamic faith's, I admit that I have explored their faith much less, however I understand that the simlarities between the books associated with each faith is why many have concluded this. I only know blended families of Jewish/Christian faiths and have observed their teaching as it is one God in both religions.

 
engineergurl said:
ptatohed said:
I agree with a lot of what you said wPE but I would argue a few things too. I'm not so sure that the Abrahamic religions all worship the same god. While the Christian/Catholic/Protestant God may be the same God, I don't see how anyone can say that is the same God of Judaism or Islam. Per the Christian, the God of the Old Testament is also the God of the New Testament but to the Jew, the God of the NT is not the same God of the OT. To the Muslim, the God of the OT and/or NT is not the God of the Quran. Why do you think they are the same gods?
Click to expand...


Why do you think they must be different? Christianity started as not it's own religion, but a sect of Judaism, so it's perfectly sensible to think that the two worship the same God just as you would think that Catholic/Protestant do. As far as Islamic faith's, I admit that I have explored their faith much less, however I understand that the simlarities between the books associated with each faith is why many have concluded this. I only know blended families of Jewish/Christian faiths and have observed their teaching as it is one God in both religions.
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Because each religion uses different holy books that each make incompatible claims about their gods. As I said previously, Christians believe the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. But Jews do not believe the God of the NT is the God of the OT. Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah p[SIZE=10.5pt]rophesied in the OT. Jews do not believe the Messiah has come yet. Jesus is God to Christians, but not to Jews. Thus, they do not believe in the same god. Likewise, Muslims reject the Christian God too - they believe in only one God - God the Father, not God the son or God the holy spirit. So, then is the God of the Quran the same as the God of the OT? Perhaps but not in my opinion. The descriptions of Allah and Allah's Paradise in the Quran, and of God (Yahweh) and Heaven (or lack thereof) in the OT are not consistent. Although the Quran does state that Muslims, Jews, and Christians do worship the same god! (but only Muslims will be admitted into Paradise). [/SIZE]

 
ptatohed said:
engineergurl said:
ptatohed said:
I agree with a lot of what you said wPE but I would argue a few things too. I'm not so sure that the Abrahamic religions all worship the same god. While the Christian/Catholic/Protestant God may be the same God, I don't see how anyone can say that is the same God of Judaism or Islam. Per the Christian, the God of the Old Testament is also the God of the New Testament but to the Jew, the God of the NT is not the same God of the OT. To the Muslim, the God of the OT and/or NT is not the God of the Quran. Why do you think they are the same gods?
Click to expand...


Why do you think they must be different? Christianity started as not it's own religion, but a sect of Judaism, so it's perfectly sensible to think that the two worship the same God just as you would think that Catholic/Protestant do. As far as Islamic faith's, I admit that I have explored their faith much less, however I understand that the simlarities between the books associated with each faith is why many have concluded this. I only know blended families of Jewish/Christian faiths and have observed their teaching as it is one God in both religions.
Click to expand...


Because each religion uses different holy books that each make incompatible claims about their gods. As I said previously, Christians believe the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. But Jews do not believe the God of the NT is the God of the OT. Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah p[SIZE=10.5pt]rophesied in the OT. Jews do not believe the Messiah has come yet. Jesus is God to Christians, but not to Jews. Thus, they do not believe in the same god. Likewise, Muslims reject the Christian God too - they believe in only one God - God the Father, not God the son or God the holy spirit. So, then is the God of the Quran the same as the God of the OT? Perhaps but not in my opinion. The descriptions of Allah and Allah's Paradise in the Quran, and of God (Yahweh) and Heaven (or lack thereof) in the OT are not consistent. Although the Quran does state that Muslims, Jews, and Christians do worship the same god! (but only Muslims will be admitted into Paradise). [/SIZE]
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We're going to disagree on this one because I'm not sure you understand the Holy Trinity (which most people, even those who believe in it don't). I would be interested in knowing who you talked to from each religion that has explained it to you as such or why you aligned your thinking like that.

In reality what it comes down to is that there was one God, and all that believed in him waited for their saviour. Those who believe in Christ, found that saviour, but a new God did not develop between the OT and NT. So if the NT God is the same as the OT God, it's all the same God...

I do know that Jesus is a link between Muslims and Christians and I think that while they don't accept him as "the Son of God", the story of his life is freakishly simlar, He is expected to return to them for the end of the world (or judgement day or whatever).

 
engineergurl said:
ptatohed said:
engineergurl said:
ptatohed said:
I agree with a lot of what you said wPE but I would argue a few things too. I'm not so sure that the Abrahamic religions all worship the same god. While the Christian/Catholic/Protestant God may be the same God, I don't see how anyone can say that is the same God of Judaism or Islam. Per the Christian, the God of the Old Testament is also the God of the New Testament but to the Jew, the God of the NT is not the same God of the OT. To the Muslim, the God of the OT and/or NT is not the God of the Quran. Why do you think they are the same gods?
Click to expand...
Why do you think they must be different? Christianity started as not it's own religion, but a sect of Judaism, so it's perfectly sensible to think that the two worship the same God just as you would think that Catholic/Protestant do. As far as Islamic faith's, I admit that I have explored their faith much less, however I understand that the simlarities between the books associated with each faith is why many have concluded this. I only know blended families of Jewish/Christian faiths and have observed their teaching as it is one God in both religions.
Click to expand...
Because each religion uses different holy books that each make incompatible claims about their gods. As I said previously, Christians believe the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. But Jews do not believe the God of the NT is the God of the OT. Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah prophesied in the OT. Jews do not believe the Messiah has come yet. Jesus is God to Christians, but not to Jews. Thus, they do not believe in the same god. Likewise, Muslims reject the Christian God too - they believe in only one God - God the Father, not God the son or God the holy spirit. So, then is the God of the Quran the same as the God of the OT? Perhaps but not in my opinion. The descriptions of Allah and Allah's Paradise in the Quran, and of God (Yahweh) and Heaven (or lack thereof) in the OT are not consistent. Although the Quran does state that Muslims, Jews, and Christians do worship the same god! (but only Muslims will be admitted into Paradise).
Click to expand...
We're going to disagree on this one because I'm not sure you understand the Holy Trinity (which most people, even those who believe in it don't). I would be interested in knowing who you talked to from each religion that has explained it to you as such or why you aligned your thinking like that.

In reality what it comes down to is that there was one God, and all that believed in him waited for their saviour. Those who believe in Christ, found that saviour, but a new God did not develop between the OT and NT. So if the NT God is the same as the OT God, it's all the same God...

I do know that Jesus is a link between Muslims and Christians and I think that while they don't accept him as "the Son of God", the story of his life is freakishly simlar, He is expected to return to them for the end of the world (or judgement day or whatever).
Click to expand...
I don't really know how to respond to this. I thought I gave a clear explanation, I guess not. We will just have to disagree like you said. I don't understand how you can think Allah, the god of the Quran, is the same as Jesus, the god of the NT. Or how for a Jew the god of his Tora is the same god as the NT when he (and Muslims) rejects the god of the NT. :confused:

 
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ptatohed said:
Also, your definition of Atheism is not correct. I already posted the definition in post #76. Atheism makes no claim of fact. It is simply a personal lack of belief in gods.
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There's a reason I didn't respond to you the first time. But since you seem to want to press the issue...I don't find "American Atheists" a credible source on the definition of atheism. They have an agenda just like the Catholic church, so they are going to define their group in the most favorable terms possible. I find you to be the worst kind of atheist, and have no desire to debate the topic with you. If you want to claim that as a moral internet victory over me, be my guest.

 
wilheldp_PE said:
ptatohed said:
Also, your definition of Atheism is not correct. I already posted the definition in post #76. Atheism makes no claim of fact. It is simply a personal lack of belief in gods.
Click to expand...


There's a reason I didn't respond to you the first time. But since you seem to want to press the issue...I don't find "American Atheists" a credible source on the definition of atheism. They have an agenda just like the Catholic church, so they are going to define their group in the most favorable terms possible. I find you to be the worst kind of atheist, and have no desire to debate the topic with you. If you want to claim that as a moral internet victory over me, be my guest.
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Well, then I'll leave it up to you to provide a reputable source for the definition of atheism that includes "knowing" there are no gods. I don't appreciate the personal attack, I do not know what I did to offend you so much. I thought we were having a friendly debate. I am sorry I offended you.

 
I'm not offended, I just have no desire to debate things with people who I feel are not open to changing opinions. I would never try to debate with Goodal because I feel that our opinions differ too much to come to any kind of reasonable compromise. You are exactly the same, just on the opposite end of the debate.

You can take what I said as a personal attack, although it was just my opinion. I just found your assertions to be way overbearing. Religion, or lack thereof, is a highly charged topic, and I feel that you come on far too strong in the atheist camp. Goodal's opinions are way in the fundamentalist Christian camp, which I very much disagree with, but he stated his beliefs and left it at that. I can certainly respect someone like that even though I don't agree with him. I find what you are trying to do as a similar situation to somebody like Goodal quoting the Creation Museum website as a legitimate reference for Christianity.

 
wilheldp_PE said:
I'm not offended, I just have no desire to debate things with people who I feel are not open to changing opinions. I would never try to debate with Goodal because I feel that our opinions differ too much to come to any kind of reasonable compromise. You are exactly the same, just on the opposite end of the debate.

You can take what I said as a personal attack, although it was just my opinion. I just found your assertions to be way overbearing. Religion, or lack thereof, is a highly charged topic, and I feel that you come on far too strong in the atheist camp. Goodal's opinions are way in the fundamentalist Christian camp, which I very much disagree with, but he stated his beliefs and left it at that. I can certainly respect someone like that even though I don't agree with him. I find what you are trying to do as a similar situation to somebody like Goodal quoting the Creation Museum website as a legitimate reference for Christianity.
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I'm not sure that anyone has changed their opinions, including you. Not sure why you are singling me out. My intention was not to be overbearing, I'm sorry if I was. Thanks for the discussion.

 
Nope. The only reason I singled out ptatohead is that he came in here telling people, namely me, that I was wrong about something related to religion or the lack thereof. Basically, he told me that agnosticism doesn't exist, and that I'm just an atheist in disguise. Like I said, I don't take offense to such things, but shit like that labels you a zealot in my book. Everybody else in this thread has seemed to be able to state their opinion, make their points, and respect other views, but I found ptato's posts to be disrespectful. I know he doesn't see it that way, and c'est la vie. I've stated my opinion on the subject and would be happy to continue any religious debates as they arise.

 
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wilheldp_PE said:
Nope. The only reason I singled out ptatohead is that he came in here telling people, namely me, that I was wrong about something related to religion or the lack thereof. Basically, he told me that agnosticism doesn't exist, and that I'm just an atheist in disguise. Like I said, I don't take offense to such things, but shit like that labels you a zealot in my book. Everybody else in this thread has seemed to be able to state their opinion, make their points, and respect other views, but I found ptato's posts to be disrespectful. I know he doesn't see it that way, and c'est la vie. I've stated my opinion on the subject and would be happy to continue any religious debates as they arise.
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It's interesting to me why this is bothering you so much. I really don't see why. I think you are taking this way to seriously dude. And, you're incorrect in your claims too:

"he came in here telling people". Umm, no. My post #68 (which I think is the one that is bothering you so much) says "To me..." and "... in my opinion...". That's not 'telling' sir. And, if you were offended by the "Grow a pair...", I was joking, thus the " ;)" My post #70 says "I don't think..." and "...in my view...". I never "told" anyone.

"namely me". A little egocentric? ;p Don't forget mudpuppy too. Although he did not get as offended as you. ;)

"Basically, he told me that agnosticism doesn't exist". Wow. I didn't say that at all. I won't bother re-quoting myself, you can go back and look for yourself.

"and that I'm just an atheist in disguise". You can interpret it as you'd like. But all I did was post my opinion (like everyone else here, but apparently it's only my opinion that seems to bother you) that I think there are either believers and non-believers. This is my opinion. In my opinion, someone can't be a "sort-of" believer. Just like the old saying, you can't be sort of pregnant. You can call yourself anything you want, I really don't care. You took what I said way too seriously dude. Relax. ;)

"I found ptato's posts to be disrespectful". If you could please clearly identify which posts were disrespectful, I'd appreciate it. I never meant to be. :)

 

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