CPEES feedback

[IlPadrino]

Lets not decry "Discrimination" lets decry "Incompetence"..They do not have a clue about what thy are doing..

OK... I'm sure you'll get lots of agreement on that statement. Some State boards certainly perform poorly (if only on occasion). But why won't you answer my question? I'll repeat it here:

What law is being violated?

You can't have a reasonable lawsuit if you can't tell me what law is being broken. 'Cause otherwise, you're just unhappy with the law and you might better focus your attention on changing the law. And that's almost certainly a futile endeavor unless you have some connections with members of your State Board.

Its like comparing apples and oranges or banana's and rocks.....Its like me arguing against a telecom monopoly and you calling the fed a monopoly..All standardize exam whether it be the GMAT,GRE,SAT or FE/PE are always administered by a single agency...thats why they are called u guessed it standarized...I do not consider that a monopoly..however I may consider it unfair if some states were to offer a test that was easier than that conducted by NCEEES...just like I would consider the offering of mutliple evaluation agencies in some states and a virtual monopoly for cpees in others as unfair...
If you encourage people to point out flaws in the system you should be loving this....Let me ask you one simple question...Are you in favor of all states adopting the Alabama model (competetion which will lead to effeciency) or are you just in favor of whatever the board decides....

I'm starting to think you don't understand the role of the States in the U.S. Professional licensure has (and will likely continue to be for the rest of our lifetimes) always been a State function. Each State is *REQUIRED* to adopt its own law, even if it choses to use a model law. A single testing board makes a lot of sense (especially as it supports comity) but there are lots of differences between States and that's as it should be. Thought as I've admitted before, give me a few beers and I sometimes can be convinced there's merit to a national licensure process.

Let me ask you one more question: What are your thoughts about Georgia adding five points to every military examinee (which means the cut-score is probably 65 instead of 70)?

Please don't think I'm insensitive to your difficulties. It's just that lots of people have them and very few come off as being entitled to better, decry discrimination, or threaten lawsuits. I wish you all the luck in getting your degree accredited!

 

[rohitss]

"What law is being violated? "

Could not find one. I looked, asked around but you are right..as long as its the same rule for all foriegn graduates a lawsuit will be thrown out

"Let me ask you one more question: What are your thoughts about Georgia adding five points to every military examinee (which means the cut-score is probably 65 instead of 70)?"

I think its unfair..If passing the PE is one of the key parameters to licensure and the State has decided to lower the standards for some..how can they gruantee the safety of the citizens these below par Engineers are meant to serve....

"Please don't think I'm insensitive to your difficulties. It's just that lots of people have them and very few come off as being entitled to better, decry discrimination, or threaten lawsuits. I wish you all the luck in getting your degree accredited!"

Please do not think of me as someone who just wants to b*tch about something..there is a real problem here I am not the only one facing this situation....

http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/CivilEngin...g/28261434.html

I still thing there has to be something I/we can do to get the board to open up to the idea of more evaluation agencies or just drop these senseless regulations...at least for people who have earned a higher degree in the U.S...

 

[benbo]

First, let me say that I feel sorry for you guys, these rules do seem a little stupid, and this CPEES company does seem a little incompetent from what I read here. I understand the frustration.

That said, I am curious what country you fellows come from where the first inclination is to sue if you don't like a rule? I thought that was a strictly US predilection. THe truth is, there is no right to a PE, these states can make whatever rule they want. If they want 4 years study of Grecian Art they can ask for it.

As IlPadrino intimated, there are only a few protected classes under US law and foreign born engineers aren't one of them.

When I was working for a US company in the Philippines I decided to look at some want ads,just to see what they looked like. Half the ads had maximum age limits, and the age was something like 40 years old. Now that may be something they look at in the US, but they don't blatantly put age limits in ads. So every place has it's own rules. You can either live with them, try to change them through lobbying and legislation, or move on.

 

[IlPadrino]

"Let me ask you one more question: What are your thoughts about Georgia adding five points to every military examinee (which means the cut-score is probably 65 instead of 70)?"
I think its unfair..If passing the PE is one of the key parameters to licensure and the State has decided to lower the standards for some..how can they gruantee the safety of the citizens these below par Engineers are meant to serve....

Interesting... to me it's the difference between equal and sameness. Someone, somewhere, decided military experience adds to the equalness (even though not the sameness). Your complaint seems to be similar in that your unhappy with the equalness because, clearly, the sameness doesn't apply.

DISCLAIMER: Please, let's not talk about racial equality!

 

[IlPadrino]

I still thing there has to be something I/we can do to get the board to open up to the idea of more evaluation agencies or just drop these senseless regulations...at least for people who have earned a higher degree in the U.S...

No arguments from me... assuming the higher degree is in the engineering field. I'd be happy to sign a petition if you think it'd help!

 

[Dleg]

I had no idea any state was offering a break on the exam scores for military examinees. I disagree with that 100%. I would, however, be supportive of a 6 month to 1 year break on the experience required to become licensed, under the assumption that typical miltary duty crams a lot more experience into a shorter period of time. But I think it is wrong to give a break on the exam scores.

As far as the CPEES goes, I know nothing about them, and after reading ths thread, I agree that there seems to be a lot of issues with the consistency of their review process and, perhaps, the qualifications of their reviewers.

However, having worked around a lot of foreign engineers, and in the process having run into more than a few who claimed to be "engineers," but later turned out to be graduates of 2-year engineering technology or drafting programs instead, or no degrees at all (more than one guy has admitted this to me after being unable to even perform simple division and multiplication on a calculator), I can see the value in scrutinizing foreign credentials. Of course, the egregious cases I mention came from just two countries, primarily, and there are other countries whos graduates are much less in need of such careful scrutinization.

Seriously, you just have to face the fact that there is a lot of fraud out there, a lot of diploma mills, document forgeries, etc., all related to foreign-obtained educational and professional credentials. It sucks that the vast majority of foreign-educated engineers are fully qualified and have to be subjected to this, but I don't see much of an alternative, aside from improving the consistency of the process and the qualifications of the reviewers, which I am sure is related directly to how much you pay for the services.

 

[IlPadrino]

I had no idea any state was offering a break on the exam scores for military examinees. I disagree with that 100%. I would, however, be supportive of a 6 month to 1 year break on the experience required to become licensed, under the assumption that typical miltary duty crams a lot more experience into a shorter period of time. But I think it is wrong to give a break on the exam scores.

You can read about it here. I don't pretend to see any logic to it, other than to recognize competence is a complicated equation (though certainly a function of education, experience, and examination).

 

[Dleg]

I thought about the break on exam scores for military members some more, and I am even more opposed to it. If I were a military member I would be offended, and also a bit worried, since I would never know if I passed on my own merits, or if I passed only because of the lowered cut. And what does that say about the Board's attitude toward the military examinees and the concept of the PE exam itself? If the purpose of the exam is to establish a person's knowledge and competence against a score considered to be the "minimum" necessary to be a PE, then aren't they saying that that same level of competence and knowledge is not necessary if you're in the military?

Anyway, that's not the subject of this thread. Sorry for adding to hijack.

 

[Dleg]

"What law is being violated? "
Could not find one. I looked, asked around but you are right..as long as its the same rule for all foriegn graduates a lawsuit will be thrown out

Not necessarily. The fact (?) that CPEES has ruled differently on reviews of the same credentials for the same person raises the possibility that their enforcement of their own procedures and the law(?) is "arbitrary and capricious". If your lawyer can convince a judge or jury of that, then you could win in a lawsuit against them. Just keep in mind that case law typically favors the agency's interpretation of their procedures, and government is not "estopped" - in other words, government is not bound by prior determinations that your records were OK - they can turn around and later say that your record is deficient, as long as their determinaiton is based on something they have found that was not noticed in their first review. But then again, CPEES isn't a government agency, and probably is not given the same deference by the courts.

(I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, just suggestions based on my experience in numerous civil cases related to government regulatory programs)

 

[IlPadrino]

Not necessarily. The fact (?) that CPEES has ruled differently on reviews of the same credentials for the same person raises the possibility that their enforcement of their own procedures and the law(?) is "arbitrary and capricious".

I don't follow... how can the rule differently on the same credentials for the same person?

 

[IlPadrino]

I thought about the break on exam scores for military members some more, and I am even more opposed to it. If I were a military member I would be offended, and also a bit worried, since I would never know if I passed on my own merits, or if I passed only because of the lowered cut. And what does that say about the Board's attitude toward the military examinees and the concept of the PE exam itself? If the purpose of the exam is to establish a person's knowledge and competence against a score considered to be the "minimum" necessary to be a PE, then aren't they saying that that same level of competence and knowledge is not necessary if you're in the military?
Anyway, that's not the subject of this thread. Sorry for adding to hijack.

I don't know how I feel... I'd be curious to learn the reason behind the law.

 

[Dleg]

I don't follow... how can the rule differently on the same credentials for the same person?

Based on one of the guys' posts above, (maybe more than one), CPEES previously evaluated his BS degree and determined it to be adequate for the purposes of applying for the FE exam. Then later, when he (or they) applied to take the PE, CPEES ruled that the same BS degree was not adequate. That, to me, stands out as a potentially "arbitrary and capricious" judgment.

 

[Twofrogs]

This is a very interesting topic. I didn't realize there was such a disparity for evaluations provided by NCEES, as mentioned within this post. I definitely wish the best of luck for anyone from a foreign background who has to endure through such an evaluation process. By all means I agree there should be a method in place which is predictable, with no surprises. Please perservere! Presenting a defensible case to the state board seems to be the best option presented thus far.

Here's where I kindly disagree - The conditions set forth by NCEES for transcripts seems valid; transcripts at schools here in the US are generally available, even to the grade school level and I also firmly believe conditions that necessitate coursework in the humanities is definitely justified. As engineers, we are not bound solely to numbers. The development of a project has the potential to include written specifications, written actions, scope of work, contracts, interface to the public .... etc. It is imperative to have the ability to accomplish these types of non-numerical tasks. An inadequate phrase or incorrectly used word has the potential to cost many dollars or worse ..public safety in a whole slew of different ways.

By humanities - I am referring to philosophy, literature, oral communication, technical writing.

 

[IlPadrino]

Based on one of the guys' posts above, (maybe more than one), CPEES previously evaluated his BS degree and determined it to be adequate for the purposes of applying for the FE exam. Then later, when he (or they) applied to take the PE, CPEES ruled that the same BS degree was not adequate. That, to me, stands out as a potentially "arbitrary and capricious" judgment.

I reread the posts and didn't see this... what I understand to be the problem for the OP is that when he applied for the FE, CPEES wasn't around and his degree was considered sufficient (presumably by the predecessor of CPEES in that State). When he applied for the PE, he had to have his degree accredited by CPEES and has had no joy, especially with the bureaucracy of getting his transcripts delivered in the prescribed manner.

And the biggest complaint seems to be that not all States use CPEES... and I can't imagine any legal reason why that's wrong.

 

[IlPadrino]

As engineers, we are not bound solely to numbers.

That's a great point. Communication is often as important (and sometimes more so!) as technical understanding. After all, the output of the engineer is almost always used by someone else - and if it's not properly communicated all the correct equations are worthless.

 

[benbo]

I reread the posts and didn't see this... what I understand to be the problem for the OP is that when he applied for the FE, CPEES wasn't around and his degree was considered sufficient (presumably by the predecessor of CPEES in that State). When he applied for the PE, he had to have his degree accredited by CPEES and has had no joy, especially with the bureaucracy of getting his transcripts delivered in the prescribed manner.
And the biggest complaint seems to be that not all States use CPEES... and I can't imagine any legal reason why that's wrong.

I didn't 100% understand what happened with these fellows. It seems like the major problem happened when they wanted to move their PE to another state. And once again, the individual states can set any evaluation requirements they want. One state does not have to accept a degree just because another state accepted it. So whether it is CPEES or the states or whatever is unclear to me. What I am basically 100% sure of is that none of these people are going to be able to find a lawyer to take this case on a contingency basis. I guess anybody can file a lawsuit and pay for it, but we are only hearing one side of the story here. I'm not holding my breath to read about a successful lawsuit here.

 

[benbo]

I just thought - if the process legally has to be identical from state to state, and from year to year, then there are a lot more lawsuits out there. How come I had to wait until late January to get my results in Cal when other people had them in early December? That cost me real money. How come some states people can bring in some references and other states you can't? How come the exact same calculators cannot be used now that could be used in 2000? How come civils have to take two extra tests in California?

Over time, a state may change the way it requires a degree to be evaluated. They may require certain proof in 2002, then discover that is not sufficient and direct CPEES to require more proof in 2008. Similarly, New York may want more proof that a degree is similar ot ABET than Alabama. It seems that all this is perfectly legal. If you want to make it uniform, pass a federal law. Also, as far as qualifications of the advisors - once again, a person is qualified as an advisor if a State board says they are. THat's it.

But it would be interesting to see what would happen in a lawsuit that presented both sides. We are only reading one side here. Like the perenniel complaints about the exam results wait time, I suspect that will never happen.

 

[Vishal]

That's a great point. Communication is often as important (and sometimes more so!) as technical understanding. After all, the output of the engineer is almost always used by someone else - and if it's not properly communicated all the correct equations are worthless.

i agree communication is important but 16 credits of social sciences and humanities for a candidate who has a BS degree in engineering (from a foreign country which exceeds the minimum required engineering credits by more than 30) and a MS degree from the university in the US (whose bachelors program is ABET accredited) is way too ridiculuous...... the courses are american history, psychology, micro and macro economics... and all that..to top this the applicant is also required to take 6 credits of Basic math and science. A professional engineer with MS degree from US needs to prove his sufficiency in basic math (Calculus) and Science(physics, chem, etc..)!!!! wat do u have to say about that? not that the applicant has skipped the course, but in the foreign country these basic math and science courses are taught during the high school years, and since the high school credits dont count towards evaluation it is not counted at all!!!!!

the candidate in question is me. I hold a BS in civil engg from India and a MS from U of Florida... what is more boggling is while accepting me for my MS degree this public school accepted my BS to be equivalent and offered me an admission to their MS program... yes, this is the same instituition whose BS program is ABET accredited.. so after UF awards me a MS in civil engineering, I am being told by the board (florida board) that the public school MS and all that is fine and dandy but your BS isn't good!!! i am sorry sir, but didn't your state's public school whose BS is accredited just awarded me a MS??? now take this, if my MS was ABET accredited then i would have been good!! as far as i know there are only 2 schools in US whose MS is accredited, one of them is U of Louisville. A coworker has his MS from UL and had no trouble getting PE in FL....

we do have 6 credits of communication skills courses during our bachelors, plus we submit master's report/thesis too.. shouldnt that count towards my engineering reporting skills?

well, i disagree about the lawsuit and all, but there is a potential here... however, i dont want to even think of that route. for me, i took my PE exam from Texas since they don't require any bullshit if i have MS from a US university whose BS is accredited... so i got the exam out of my way and now i am fighting the battle... just wanted to make all u guys aware so this long explanation.... in my personal opinion, the individuals having their MS from a US univ should not be given this hard time...

PS: just recently i found that, if i have 2 years of continuous licensure in another state (texas in my state) then Florida board will waive the requirement of 16 credits of humanities and social sciences!!! i wonder what will those 2 years do that my 4 years of BS, 2 years of MS and 4 years of experience did not do???? anyway, 2 years is a long time, it means late promotion, bonus, etc.. but the cost of taking 16 credits of trash courses is a lot compared to my work schedule and the bonus i may expect... additionally, its gonna take me a year plus to finish the courses so why not wait 6 extra months and just get it waived.

i still can't stop smiling about having to prove my basic math ability after two engineering degrees and a PE license!!!!

 

[benbo]

I look forward to reading the transcripts of these lawsuits as they wind their way through the legal system. I'm certain everyone will post their triumphant legal actions here.

By the way, I just went through an estate processing, and lawyers bill around $300/hour or more.

 

[PinoyCE]

I think that the main purpose of the EIT and PE examinations is to know if the person has the MINIMUM engineering knowledge for the safety of the public. Now, if the engineer had already passed this evaluating test, don't you think its discrimination just because the engineer didn't had his BS in the Country he is applying for? For people who's job is to test the professionalism of individuals, are they practicing what they are preaching? Or is it just fault of slacking on the job?

Anyway, I strongly agree that it is unfavorable. Would they rather see people with knowledge and skills go to waste?