April 2019 SE Results Thread

[Nathan55]

All I used were the STERM, practice exams/problems and the codes themselves. For my studying I first went through the STERM cover to cover, only as a tool for me to learn the codes I wasn't experienced in (I'm only experienced in steel and seismic). After that all I did were practice exams/problems, (PPI Practice Exam, PPI SE Solved Problems, PPI 6-minute problems, NCEES practice exam, SEAOC Vol. 1and Connor's Bridge). For each practice book I'd do all of the problems, and then review the solutions, spending extra time on ones I missed. Then all I brought into the exam were the codes themselves, STERM and Connor's bridge. No textbooks / code refence books. I only used the STERM and Connor's Bridge book less than 5 times. For me, I felt that too much time would be wasted in the exam if I were to use a reference/text book to direct me to the code, rather than just going straight to the code itself. I know I am the outlier here, because the other 5 test takers with me had piles and piles of reference books and such, both on their table and on the floor. It looked daunting to me to have so much material, first thinking about what would be the book to grab on every problem and then finding the book among the library that was brought. I just had my several code books fanned out, none stacked top so I could immediately grab the correct one.

Also agree 100%. The whole "open book" thing is clever misdirection. Essentially, if you need to look in textbooks and the like to solve a problem, you've lost already. Everything has to be muscle memory. As in, visualizing the code when you close your eyes. Knowing all the mistakes that people make. Forgetting the names of family members because all your cerebral lobes are ensconced in the nuances of irregularities and overstrength. I only bring a wood textbook and david's book and place in a "break in case of emergency" location. 

NCEES: Ah....textbooks, practice exams...powerful tools for the uninitiated. But...we are initiated....aren't we, Nathan? 

 

[Titleistguy]

Two bins is alot of room if we didn't have a 2000+ page bridge code to deal with lol.  

On a side note, I'm glad the SE is hard to pass....it should be.  These are life and death engineering matters that reuqire a very high bar in my opinion.  I thought the PE was insulting how easy it was and frankly that the FE was harder.  I remember finishing the afternoon PE portion 90 minutes or so early.  It was a joke.

35% (ish) pass rates are scary to see and it's difficult prepararing but I'd much rather the NCEES keep it difficult to reflect the possible consequences of not knowing the subject matter.  Plus it'll mean that much more when I pass.

 

[AlexPE]

Good morning all of you beautiful people with your "purty" mouths! I hope you all have a Wonderful Wednesday. Just a tidbit of advice, don't go on a white water canoe/camping trip with Burt Reynolds in the backwoods. It doesn't end well. Also, stay positive about this thing whatever result you get! Many many many competent engineers struggle with this exam. If you have issues passing, take a course. I've had to take two. Both School of PE and EET. While there was a lot of overlap between the two prep courses, they definitely helped me flesh out my understanding of high seismic/special detailing. I would also like to recommend Mr. David Conner's bridge books. He frequents the site here and all of us are lucky to have him. His bridge problem books will definitely help you pick up the low hanging fruit if you've never been involved with bridge design. Considering the bridge problems make up 20% of the morning exam portion, do NOT attempt to write them off. I'm seriously thinking about putting together a publication as well. I've tabulated and organized all of the material that I've used on my journey from PE to the 16 hour SE and it's fairly comprehensive as I've been compiling it for years. I think it would also function fairly well as a design reference as I've put many of my real life examples into it. Just a thought, it would still require getting together with a publisher and editing. I suspect many of you already use, or have used, the SERM. If you would give me an opinion as to whether a comprehensive study guide/design manual covering all materials, common determinate and non-determinate analysis methods, and design methodologies would be useful in addition to the publications that already exist, I'd be grateful.

That would be incredible. Id pay a handsome sum if you could get this thing published by the time next year's test rolls around.

For reals though - one thing that really hurts is not having a text book covering the lateral design and analysis situations. You people keep hating on SERM, but it was the ONLY reference I needed during the vertical exam's concrete and cmu questions (I passed that exam and wouldnt be surprised if I hit 100%). It does an excellent job of giving you the most important equations and steps to take, and always includes where to find the relevant section of code in case you need it (plus large margins for notes!)

However I recently found out (the hard way) that SERM sucks monkey balls when it comes to lateral design (vegas set my over-under at 24/40, 2A, 1NI, 1U and im taking the under). I think a large reason for this variance between vertical and lateral exam performance has to do with my lack of exposure to lateral questions and steps/checks during analysis. In other words I dont need theory... the lateral chapter of serm, seaoc vol 1, asce commentary all have plenty of theory - to the point where I feel like I could teach a class on lateral design theory. Instead, the most useful textbook would design/analyze a building frame, starting with load distribution, load cases and combos, and continue down to seismic detailing of the foundation - all the while describing what checks to make, and what code sections to review if some uncommon situation arises.

I look at it like this: there are 88 practice problems for the exam (44 ncees and 44 ppi - one could count solved, 6 min, and seaoc too, though the solutions too often feel more like college test questions than actual NCEES questions). Those practice problems cover alot of ground, but there are some glaring holes.

Someone like you, Mr FutureSE, is in a great position to write a book such as the one you propose. You have taken the exam, what... 4, 5 times now? You thus must have a good grasp on which topics they find important (i.e. load combinations!), which techniques have been covered to death (i.e. flexural stress in CMU, or seismic design category, anyone?), and which topics are important but barely discussed in the codes or practice exams.... like I am still amazed at how its possible to have NOT seen a structural irregularity problem (ncees style, not seaoc's) or a directional procedure problem (thats right - the most basic, enclosed condition) prior to the test! No amount of code reading, highlighting or note-taking is going to take the place of actually doing problems.

So in conclusion (sorry for the rant!), what the world needs are more questions and step-by-step solutions covering the basics in a comprehensive sense, with tips and code references for possible variations to given conditions. Like how serm does gravity... do THAT for lateral.

I said it before and ill say it again -FutureSE for president!

 

[TheBigGuy]

FutureSE, let me know if you decide to write the book.  I don't want to swoop in and steel your idea out from under you.  Otherwise, I'll spend every weekend writing "A Midwesterner's Guide to the SE Seismic Exam" this summer, full of example problems, tips for the test, and my unsolicited theories of life and this world.

 

[Duke]

On a side note, I'm glad the SE is hard to pass....it should be.  These are life and death engineering matters that reuqire a very high bar in my opinion.  I thought the PE was insulting how easy it was and frankly that the FE was harder.  I remember finishing the afternoon PE portion 90 minutes or so early.  It was a joke.

35% (ish) pass rates are scary to see and it's difficult prepararing but I'd much rather the NCEES keep it difficult to reflect the possible consequences of not knowing the subject matter.  Plus it'll mean that much more when I pass.

This exam is unfair to those of us who are competent but have not been blessed with speed in the traditional test format. Otherwise competent engineers who perform well in the real world are held back from licensure if they aren't predisposed to performing material they saw once or twice in some form on a practice exam and then on the exam have to run design calcs on it at break neck speed. Then comparing the SE to other high stakes professions the pass rates don't even compare.

I believe the people passing the current SE are competent, and that is a good thing, but I also believe many competent engineers struggle with this exam which very negatively impacts would be SE's career paths, which is a bad thing.

 

[Titleistguy]

Duke, I appreciate your view point but I simply don't agree.  Competent doctors pass med school but can't pass boards...and I'm not sure if anyone would want that doctor practicing on them without the license.  I know it sounds harsh but that's the reality of it.  To me to call yourself an SE means you love this stuff, you are passionate and it makes you tick.  I truly believe if those things are all true then a person will eventually pass.  As opposed to the PE that I feel in some way is more token and just a thing you gotta take and pass.  

 I find it hard to believe that test taking skills / anxiety is the problem considering most if not all the people here have a PE, got through at least an undergraduate program and quite possibly a Masters.  So we've all taken tests before and know what it's about. 

I don't think watering down the test is the solution.  Especially if the claim is simply that it's not fair.  How is it fair to the people who have passed already if they were to make it easier?  

At any rate I'm sincerely hopeful that everyone involved in this conversation passes or will pass this test bc the fact we're all here talking about it means we care.

 

[David Connor SE]

That would be incredible. Id pay a handsome sum if you could get this thing published by the time next year's test rolls around.

For reals though - one thing that really hurts is not having a text book covering the lateral design and analysis situations. You people keep hating on SERM, but it was the ONLY reference I needed during the vertical exam's concrete and cmu questions (I passed that exam and wouldnt be surprised if I hit 100%). It does an excellent job of giving you the most important equations and steps to take, and always includes where to find the relevant section of code in case you need it (plus large margins for notes!)

However I recently found out (the hard way) that SERM sucks monkey balls when it comes to lateral design (vegas set my over-under at 24/40, 2A, 1NI, 1U and im taking the under). I think a large reason for this variance between vertical and lateral exam performance has to do with my lack of exposure to lateral questions and steps/checks during analysis. In other words I dont need theory... the lateral chapter of serm, seaoc vol 1, asce commentary all have plenty of theory - to the point where I feel like I could teach a class on lateral design theory. Instead, the most useful textbook would design/analyze a building frame, starting with load distribution, load cases and combos, and continue down to seismic detailing of the foundation - all the while describing what checks to make, and what code sections to review if some uncommon situation arises.

I look at it like this: there are 88 practice problems for the exam (44 ncees and 44 ppi - one could count solved, 6 min, and seaoc too, though the solutions too often feel more like college test questions than actual NCEES questions). Those practice problems cover alot of ground, but there are some glaring holes.

Someone like you, Mr FutureSE, is in a great position to write a book such as the one you propose. You have taken the exam, what... 4, 5 times now? You thus must have a good grasp on which topics they find important (i.e. load combinations!), which techniques have been covered to death (i.e. flexural stress in CMU, or seismic design category, anyone?), and which topics are important but barely discussed in the codes or practice exams.... like I am still amazed at how its possible to have NOT seen a structural irregularity problem (ncees style, not seaoc's) or a directional procedure problem (thats right - the most basic, enclosed condition) prior to the test! No amount of code reading, highlighting or note-taking is going to take the place of actually doing problems.

So in conclusion (sorry for the rant!), what the world needs are more questions and step-by-step solutions covering the basics in a comprehensive sense, with tips and code references for possible variations to given conditions. Like how serm does gravity... do THAT for lateral.

I said it before and ill say it again -FutureSE for president!

For step by step seismic design examples/solutions, check out the SEAOC books, Vols. 2-5 if you haven't already.  They may be a little too comprehensive, like some of the SERM examples, but you can certainly learn a lot about seismic "design" if you study those books.

That being said, Seismic Design for Midwesterners is a great idea! Or maybe a book that covers the common "tricks" that can trip you up on the SE exam.  SE Exam: Common Mistakes and How to Avoid Them.

 

[kevo_55]

^^AISC has a webinar (and presentation) on this. It was offered at the NASCC this year. 

Still this exam is hard and very well should be for what they have replaced.

Now if a state board requires the SE exam for a PE then I would say that you may have a good argument for them.

Just my $0.02.

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

FutureSE, let me know if you decide to write the book.  I don't want to swoop in and steel your idea out from under you.  Otherwise, I'll spend every weekend writing "A Midwesterner's Guide to the SE Seismic Exam" this summer, full of example problems, tips for the test, and my unsolicited theories of life and this world.

Well, the thing is that it is practically written but it needs to be proofed and edited. I’ve compiled vast amounts of data across my years of experience as well as my studies for the SE. As it sits currently, I have (3) 2” binders so full of data, examples, references, and flowcharts that I can barely turn the pages. The whole intention of compiling this monster was so  my younger employees will not have to struggle as I did and I can just shove pages under their nose when they have questions rather than lose the billing time. It’s unfortunate that we are a smaller firm with zero high seismic experience, so I felt this compilation was essential. We came really close to designing a high seismic structure once, but a shear wave velocity test kicked us back into steel not specifically detailed. I also fully intended to cheat and just pay one of our young EIT’s to put this together during work hours. It’d be a good project for them during some slow time.

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

Two bins is alot of room if we didn't have a 2000+ page bridge code to deal with lol.  

On a side note, I'm glad the SE is hard to pass....it should be.  These are life and death engineering matters that reuqire a very high bar in my opinion.  I thought the PE was insulting how easy it was and frankly that the FE was harder.  I remember finishing the afternoon PE portion 90 minutes or so early.  It was a joke.

35% (ish) pass rates are scary to see and it's difficult prepararing but I'd much rather the NCEES keep it difficult to reflect the possible consequences of not knowing the subject matter.  Plus it'll mean that much more when I pass.

The P.E. was a joke as far as difficulty. It’s the areas of practice and problem styles that frustrate me. If you are a building engineer, how many times do you open the AASHTO? It’s 20% of the morning exam and I know I had to buy the thing specifically for this exam. I’ll probably burn it in ritual sacrifice to the ASCE gods soon. If you are on the east coast, how many special seismic systems have you designed? I’ll bet not many if any. I haven’t seen any in almost (2) decades. Those questions are at least 50% of the exam. Regardless of what you’ve designed and understand, I can always point out something that you don’t. An engineer can be competent in their area of practice without having to be competent across the country or various disciplines. Believe it or not, some of us still specialize in low to mid-height structures that do not require seismic design past a few ELFP checks and some subdiaphragm framing.

I wonder how long it will be before our friends at NCEES desire to incorporate airframe structures into the exam. Hell, why not space structures as bases for our new Space Force? It really feels like Space Force should have a trademark symbol to make it even “more awesomer.” I probably would have named it Solar System Soldiers or triple S for short, but no one asked for my opinion.  If we put a base on the moon, will we have to change the code and make all US based engineers learn lunar earthquake design? It’s a trick question, there are no “EARTHquakes” on the moon. It makes almost as much sense as a brain surgeon having to study buttholes with significant intensity (No offense to our proctologically inclined friends, you do you. Also, I’m not saying that bridges are buttholes so untuck any wadded panties, please). Imagine if buttholes made up 20% of the brain surgery medical licensure exam (Come to think of it, it would certainly make a lot of sense if our politicians had undergone surgery by these “qualified” doctors. I’m looking at you, Hank Johnson and your condition that rhymes with “pit stains”). Anyway, I’ll quit being intentionally crude and typing butthole.

Butthole. Fooled you, I just had to say it one more time!

 I’ll give you another dozen years, (4) to (5) revisions of code cycles, have all our foreign graduate students write crazy new  dissertations and theories for the ICC to slobber over (so they can sell more books). Then have NCEES change their exam format as well as your state board force you to take the new exam for licensure (to hell with grandfathering anything). Maybe we could even have engineers retest every (4) years. That should certainly set the bar high enough.

You’ll probably be as cynical and bitter as me by that point. This industry will do that to a person. It sucks little pieces of your soul right out one retarded contractor/building department plan reviewer question/comment and ICC code change at a time until you are a dried up husk of the proud engineering stallion that you once were.

 

[Dean Agnostic]

I feel like @FutureSE is contemplating on litigating the grading system issues. As a regular person, to the best of my belief, you have a good, clear and convincing argument with regards to "subject matter expert" competency grading your exam. 

@Dean Agnostic, Grand Jury #69

 

[Dean Agnostic]

It states on the NCEES examinee guide:

**********************************************************

NCEES AGREEMENT TO ARBITRATE (ALL EXAMS):

1. In the event that any legal dispute arises between you and NCEES in connection with your participation in any NCEES examination where that dispute is not resolved by the appeals process, you agree that the exclusive means for resolving the dispute shall be binding arbitration as described by the terms of this agreement. This means that you waive the rights you may have to resolve the dispute in a court of law or by any other means that might otherwise be available to you.

.....

3. Arbitration proceedings initiated pursuant to this agreement to arbitrate shall be conducted in accordance with the then current rules of the American Arbitration Association. The arbitration and any proceedings relating to it shall be held in Charlotte, North Carolina. The arbitrator’s award shall be binding and may be entered as a judgment in any court of competent jurisdiction. Information about the American Arbitration Association, its rules, and its forms are available from the American Arbitration Association, 335 Madison Avenue, Floor 10, New York, New York, 10017-4605.

.....

4. In the event of arbitration, the parties shall bear their own costs and attorneys’ fees associated with the arbitration proceedings, unless the arbitrator directs one of the parties to pay the other’s costs, or attorneys’ fees, or both.

********************************************************

@FutureSE I'm curious to know what your legal counsel's thoughts on this and his legal fees .

 

[Dean Agnostic]

When I was kid, I was challenged by an organization, and I wound up in a judicial law library to save on legal fees for three years establishing probable cause documents and put them in 3 bankers box. It was probably the loveliest days of my life, LOL!

Whether you make an appeal or not, I hope you do well on the exam @FutureSE. GOOD LUCK! 

More BlessingS!

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

When I was kid, I was challenged by an organization, and I wound up in a judicial law library to save on legal fees for three years establishing probable cause documents and put them in 3 bankers box. It was probably the loveliest days of my life, LOL!

Whether you make an appeal or not, I hope you do well on the exam @FutureSE. GOOD LUCK! 

More BlessingS!

I think you are reading too far into my idea of litigation. I'm not really concerned with them bearing the counsel fees either. Hardly any of this is legal, it's just a story (I like talking) but a brief synopsis of the situation is as follows:

I started this journey nearly (2) years ago after being rejected by the GA board for PE reciprocity as I only had the PE under my belt and I waited a long time to get it. It was probably a stupid idea and I should've taken it way earlier, but I never really needed the licensure so it was approximately 2013 or 2014 when I got it. Anyway, I bought the NCEES practice exam, studied, and took the vertical and lateral SE exams the same weekend. I left the vertical feeling like I crushed it and the NCEES practice exam was fairly representative of the content of that exam. Little did I know the next day would have a tremendous amount of material I had literally never been exposed to. I left the lateral with a long face, knowing I had clearly failed. I couldn't even feel good about the vertical anymore as this was the first exam in my life that I'd failed and it was a huge blow to my confidence. It was almost like a high school sweetheart breakup. I just knew life was over and I was never going to recover from this devastation. I was a decent undergrad with an upper 3's gpa and a straight A graduate student so I eventually attributed my failing to just not being exposed to the material, picked up my suck it up straw, and tried to move on with my life.

At this point, I contacted every SE that I knew. I was trying to get in touch with someone that had been exposed to the material so they could at least point me in the proper direction for my studies as I didn't even know which books to use for high seismic (my ignorance had been bliss to this point and I've never designed anything further west than Iowa). Even in South Carolina and Tennessee, I've never been lucky enough to see an SDC greater than C. I knew there was some funky stuff the west coast seismic voodoo engineers did but LITERALLY NOT ONE SINGLE INDIVIDUAL I SPOKE WITH KNEW WHAT THE HELL I WAS TALKING ABOUT (I not talking PE's, I'm talking licensed SE's, I guess pre 2011 it was dramatically different). A few of these individuals were graders for previous administrations! Other old SE's accused me of drinking when I proclaimed dynamic seismic analysis was on the exam in limited quantities. The resounding words from the industry were "You're wasting your time studying anything but ELFP." I searched for recent grads to try and learn this stuff. Turns out they aren't teaching it in most colleges (I did find out later that at least GA Tech has a seismic course now). I like self study, but if you have no idea where to start or what to study it's not so good. So I googled some books, bought them, and started reading this board and talking smack. I self studied hard. Dug into the seismic sections of the code like a tick buried in a dog's ear. Went to the exam feeling confident again. Then I didn't finish. Really didn't finish. To the point, I almost needed twice as much time to finish. At least when I got the grades back, most of the questions I did finish, I received decent marks for.

On a side note, after the second try, one of the exam proctors told me to apply for special accommodations. They said it was easy to get and they would allow time and a half or even double time. I thought I would try this out after finding out how badly I had failed for trial # (2). I applied and I don't know if I was randomly audited or if the proctor was just looking at me and thought I was retarded (I don't blame her, I blame genetics). Anyway, I received a letter requesting significant substantiating evidence for reasons of special accommodation to include: letters from doctors, letters from coworkers, and pictures of my work environment. At this point, I seriously considered buying and wearing a football helmet, sitting at my desk, and drooling profusely while my business partners took photo's of me pretending to eat my calculator. I decided against these actions and decided to take School of PE instead as I knew at this point I had a snowball's chance in hell of passing this thing without help.

School of PE cleared a lot of things up for me. I was regaining my confidence in my abilities, following their class schedule, reading the code books like a boss. I felt like I was finally taming this wild beast know as the Lateral SE Exam! I go in for trial #3, I do decent in the morning (passing level best I can tell from internet message boards). The afternoon was a little difficult and time consuming as I finished writing within the (1) minute warning period. Walking away from the exam, I was moderately sure I had passed. On the drive home I realized a few MINOR issues I had with the wood and general analysis problems concerning adjustment factors and the wonderful Omega value. "Surely the graders would see that I mostly knew what I was doing and would give me partial marks at the worst," I told myself. When I received the results, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that I passed the steel and concrete portions yet failed wood and general analysis (Oddly, this was a flip flop from the previous administration for me).

Receiving this result left me bitter as hell. I was furious. I still am. I should not have been required to take this thing again. I'm sure of that. I looked up challenging the grading of the afternoon, but NCEES doesn't allow that. I called and e-mailed NCEES offered to pay a proctor and their counsel, drive to South Carolina, donate to the charity of their choice, and perform mission work in the name of NCEES just to allow me to view the graded exam to see what I had done wrong. At this point, I would have donated a kidney, maybe even both of them to be able to see what I did that was so wrong to fail me. Everything I offered seemed more that reasonable and accommodating to me. After all, I'd seen the exam once and I was apparently assumed too stupid to reproduce it from memory. I was alos as considerate and accommodating as a butthurt individual can be, but I was told "Under no circumstances can you see your exam." I don't know who graded that exam, but they definitely went to the same brain surgeon that Hank Johnson did (see my previous post for an explaination). While, I knew I made some minor mistakes, there were absolutely no legitimate reasons to fail me on those two problems.

Eventually, I tried to get over my anger. I used engineer boards as my personal psychologist. I decided I was going to give this thing one more good shot at 1000% (Yes, 10X the capacity of a normal human being).  I signed up for EET as individuals on here stated they were exceptional (they really are). I went to the Dr. and got a prescription for adderall. I studied seismic like a teenage boy staring at a dirty magazine. I was absolutely like Rocky Balboa training in the Siberian wilderness to fight Drago.

During these intense studies, I realized that whomever graded the last exam either really did screw me over or NCEES grades so harshly that basically perfection is the only acceptable option. My standing theory is that NCEES hands over a key to the "subject matter experts" and they just compare it to your exam. If these so called "experts" don't know what they are doing and you don't match the key almost exactly, they mark it wrong and move on. If you are lucky enough to get two of these morons grading your exam (I think it's likely the second grader never really looks at it or just thumbs through it speedily), then congrats, you've likely failed. This gave me more fuel to punch NCEES right in the ding ding on the next exam. Finally, I sat for this last administration of the exam and left feeling like I smashed it like Hulk smashed Loki. I have (3) problems I likely missed in the morning and a small portion of one of the sections on (1) of the afternoon problems. Everything else, I'm fairly sure of. According to grading statistics online, I would have to miss 1 out of every (4) questions I thought I got right to fail this exam. Assuming that is the case, I have a HUGE buffer for passing.

So to sum it all up, Yes, if I get the grading back and I somehow didn't pass. I will absolutely go Hiroshima on that ass to see the exam. I will not take NO for an answer and the easiest option they will have is to just allow me to see the damn thing. I will pay for their time, the lawyer, the travel, the proctor, and an armed guard if need be, but I will see it. I am a practical and reasonable individual. If I legitimately failed, I'll learn from whatever I did wrong and move on, but I can't and absolutely won't sit here and just let them give me a "Sorry, try again" without me knowing EXACTLY why.  

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

It states on the NCEES examinee guide:

**********************************************************

NCEES AGREEMENT TO ARBITRATE (ALL EXAMS):

1. In the event that any legal dispute arises between you and NCEES in connection with your participation in any NCEES examination where that dispute is not resolved by the appeals process, you agree that the exclusive means for resolving the dispute shall be binding arbitration as described by the terms of this agreement. This means that you waive the rights you may have to resolve the dispute in a court of law or by any other means that might otherwise be available to you.

.....

3. Arbitration proceedings initiated pursuant to this agreement to arbitrate shall be conducted in accordance with the then current rules of the American Arbitration Association. The arbitration and any proceedings relating to it shall be held in Charlotte, North Carolina. The arbitrator’s award shall be binding and may be entered as a judgment in any court of competent jurisdiction. Information about the American Arbitration Association, its rules, and its forms are available from the American Arbitration Association, 335 Madison Avenue, Floor 10, New York, New York, 10017-4605.

.....

4. In the event of arbitration, the parties shall bear their own costs and attorneys’ fees associated with the arbitration proceedings, unless the arbitrator directs one of the parties to pay the other’s costs, or attorneys’ fees, or both.

********************************************************

@FutureSE I'm curious to know what your legal counsel's thoughts on this and his legal fees .

After reading my previous post, maybe you have a better idea of what I'm getting myself into. I'm not playing stupid games anymore. I've paid almost $10,000 for this exam and all of it's associated costs already. I'll pay that again or even more, if that is what it takes to get through. While arbitration is always called for in agreements, there are ways around it. I hate when smug people pretend to know everything. @Dean Agnostic, I should clarify that I'm not saying you are, but it certainly seemed to be what it looked like with this comment.

 

[Booo]

I think you are reading too far into my idea of litigation. I'm not really concerned with them bearing the counsel fees either. Hardly any of this is legal, it's just a story (I like talking) but a brief synopsis of the situation is as follows:

I started this journey nearly (2) years ago after being rejected by the GA board for PE reciprocity as I only had the PE under my belt and I waited a long time to get it. It was probably a stupid idea and I should've taken it way earlier, but I never really needed the licensure so it was approximately 2013 or 2014 when I got it. Anyway, I bought the NCEES practice exam, studied, and took the vertical and lateral SE exams the same weekend. I left the vertical feeling like I crushed it and the NCEES practice exam was fairly representative of the content of that exam. Little did I know the next day would have a tremendous amount of material I had literally never been exposed to. I left the lateral with a long face, knowing I had clearly failed. I couldn't even feel good about the vertical anymore as this was the first exam in my life that I'd failed and it was a huge blow to my confidence. It was almost like a high school sweetheart breakup. I just knew life was over and I was never going to recover from this devastation. I was a decent undergrad with an upper 3's gpa and a straight A graduate student so I eventually attributed my failing to just not being exposed to the material, picked up my suck it up straw, and tried to move on with my life.

At this point, I contacted every SE that I knew. I was trying to get in touch with someone that had been exposed to the material so they could at least point me in the proper direction for my studies as I didn't even know which books to use for high seismic (my ignorance had been bliss to this point and I've never designed anything further west than Iowa). Even in South Carolina and Tennessee, I've never been lucky enough to see an SDC greater than C. I knew there was some funky stuff the west coast seismic voodoo engineers did but LITERALLY NOT ONE SINGLE INDIVIDUAL I SPOKE WITH KNEW WHAT THE HELL I WAS TALKING ABOUT (I not talking PE's, I'm talking licensed SE's, I guess pre 2011 it was dramatically different). A few of these individuals were graders for previous administrations! Other old SE's accused me of drinking when I proclaimed dynamic seismic analysis was on the exam in limited quantities. The resounding words from the industry were "You're wasting your time studying anything but ELFP." I searched for recent grads to try and learn this stuff. Turns out they aren't teaching it in most colleges (I did find out later that at least GA Tech has a seismic course now). I like self study, but if you have no idea where to start or what to study it's not so good. So I googled some books, bought them, and started reading this board and talking smack. I self studied hard. Dug into the seismic sections of the code like a tick buried in a dog's ear. Went to the exam feeling confident again. Then I didn't finish. Really didn't finish. To the point, I almost needed twice as much time to finish. At least when I got the grades back, most of the questions I did finish, I received decent marks for.

On a side note, after the second try, one of the exam proctors told me to apply for special accommodations. They said it was easy to get and they would allow time and a half or even double time. I thought I would try this out after finding out how badly I had failed for trial # (2). I applied and I don't know if I was randomly audited or if the proctor was just looking at me and thought I was retarded (I don't blame her, I blame genetics). Anyway, I received a letter requesting significant substantiating evidence for reasons of special accommodation to include: letters from doctors, letters from coworkers, and pictures of my work environment. At this point, I seriously considered buying and wearing a football helmet, sitting at my desk, and drooling profusely while my business partners took photo's of me pretending to eat my calculator. I decided against these actions and decided to take School of PE instead as I knew at this point I had a snowball's chance in hell of passing this thing without help.

School of PE cleared a lot of things up for me. I was regaining my confidence in my abilities, following their class schedule, reading the code books like a boss. I felt like I was finally taming this wild beast know as the Lateral SE Exam! I go in for trial #3, I do decent in the morning (passing level best I can tell from internet message boards). The afternoon was a little difficult and time consuming as I finished writing within the (1) minute warning period. Walking away from the exam, I was moderately sure I had passed. On the drive home I realized a few MINOR issues I had with the wood and general analysis problems concerning adjustment factors and the wonderful Omega value. "Surely the graders would see that I mostly knew what I was doing and would give me partial marks at the worst," I told myself. When I received the results, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that I passed the steel and concrete portions yet failed wood and general analysis (Oddly, this was a flip flop from the previous administration for me).

Receiving this result left me bitter as hell. I was furious. I still am. I should not have been required to take this thing again. I'm sure of that. I looked up challenging the grading of the afternoon, but NCEES doesn't allow that. I called and e-mailed NCEES offered to pay a proctor and their counsel, drive to South Carolina, donate to the charity of their choice, and perform mission work in the name of NCEES just to allow me to view the graded exam to see what I had done wrong. At this point, I would have donated a kidney, maybe even both of them to be able to see what I did that was so wrong to fail me. Everything I offered seemed more that reasonable and accommodating to me. After all, I'd seen the exam once and I was apparently assumed too stupid to reproduce it from memory. I was alos as considerate and accommodating as a butthurt individual can be, but I was told "Under no circumstances can you see your exam." I don't know who graded that exam, but they definitely went to the same brain surgeon that Hank Johnson did (see my previous post for an explaination). While, I knew I made some minor mistakes, there were absolutely no legitimate reasons to fail me on those two problems.

Eventually, I tried to get over my anger. I used engineer boards as my personal psychologist. I decided I was going to give this thing one more good shot at 1000% (Yes, 10X the capacity of a normal human being).  I signed up for EET as individuals on here stated they were exceptional (they really are). I went to the Dr. and got a prescription for adderall. I studied seismic like a teenage boy staring at a dirty magazine. I was absolutely like Rocky Balboa training in the Siberian wilderness to fight Drago.

During these intense studies, I realized that whomever graded the last exam either really did screw me over or NCEES grades so harshly that basically perfection is the only acceptable option. My standing theory is that NCEES hands over a key to the "subject matter experts" and they just compare it to your exam. If these so called "experts" don't know what they are doing and you don't match the key almost exactly, they mark it wrong and move on. If you are lucky enough to get two of these morons grading your exam (I think it's likely the second grader never really looks at it or just thumbs through it speedily), then congrats, you've likely failed. This gave me more fuel to punch NCEES right in the ding ding on the next exam. Finally, I sat for this last administration of the exam and left feeling like I smashed it like Hulk smashed Loki. I have (3) problems I likely missed in the morning and a small portion of one of the sections on (1) of the afternoon problems. Everything else, I'm fairly sure of. According to grading statistics online, I would have to miss 1 out of every (4) questions I thought I got right to fail this exam. Assuming that is the case, I have a HUGE buffer for passing.

So to sum it all up, Yes, if I get the grading back and I somehow didn't pass. I will absolutely go Hiroshima on that ass to see the exam. I will not take NO for an answer and the easiest option they will have is to just allow me to see the damn thing. I will pay for their time, the lawyer, the travel, the proctor, and an armed guard if need be, but I will see it. I am a practical and reasonable individual. If I legitimately failed, I'll learn from whatever I did wrong and move on, but I can't and absolutely won't sit here and just let them give me a "Sorry, try again" without me knowing EXACTLY why.  

I hope after this results cycle you close this chapter of your life and get inner peace. And I mean it in the sincerest way possible. 

And as for me, I didn't want to take the SE anyways  :mf_Flush:

 

[cal91]

Two weeks down. 8 more to go. 

 

[Nathan55]

Two weeks down. 8 more to go. 

Only one week till "avengers: endgame" comes out though. 3 hours of fun, that's almost an entire component of the exam! 

Also, FutureSE, I definitely hope you pass. I actually think the test will end up being much better when it is computer based. Hopefully that will shorten the turnaround time, allow more attempts as opposed to twice per year, and take some of the ridiculousness out of the afternoon grading procedures. I feel your pain on wanting to see your exam to figure out what was done incorrectly. I'd be willing to sign all sorts of NDAs to do it. Also, based on the exam problem variety, is it really going to mess up NCEES' ability to write a difficult exam? If that were the case, they shouldn't be able to provide a practice exam. I'm not at all sure why being able to understand what makes something "unnacceptable" or "improvement required" is a Thanos-level extinction event. Surely there are worse evils in the world. 

 

[ChaosMuppetPE]

Only one week till "avengers: endgame" comes out though. 3 hours of fun, that's almost an entire component of the exam! 

Also, FutureSE, I definitely hope you pass. I actually think the test will end up being much better when it is computer based. Hopefully that will shorten the turnaround time, allow more attempts as opposed to twice per year, and take some of the ridiculousness out of the afternoon grading procedures. I feel your pain on wanting to see your exam to figure out what was done incorrectly. I'd be willing to sign all sorts of NDAs to do it. Also, based on the exam problem variety, is it really going to mess up NCEES' ability to write a difficult exam? If that were the case, they shouldn't be able to provide a practice exam. I'm not at all sure why being able to understand what makes something "unnacceptable" or "improvement required" is a Thanos-level extinction event. Surely there are worse evils in the world. 

I’m sure I did fine. I am very good at being ignorant but I’m not stupid (generally speaking). Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t know the difference between the two anymore. There is a small chance that I may end up eating crow, but honestly with the amount of effort and bad luck I’ve had with this thing, it’s made me much better at dealing with the stupidity I face on a daily basis. It’s nice to be able to stop contractors, architects, and plan reviewers mid-sentence with code provisions quoted like scripture when they are talking nonsense or telling me “I’ve been doing this for 30 years,” “I want to hang this dangly thing 72.45 feet out there at a 43.6259 degree angle,” or “I’m rejecting your permit for ...,” respective of the disciplines above. Architects and their dangly things at odd angles. Man, I swear this industry is going to kill me. Like I said, I just like to talk. Sometimes I get all bent out of shape when my donut level gets low. Nothing a trip to Krispy kreme can’t fix.

I can’t wait for the new Avengers movie either. It’s going to be better than sex. I know this because I’ll at least get to see Avengers!

 

[AlexPE]

I’m sure I did fine. I am very good at being ignorant but I’m not stupid (generally speaking). Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t know the difference between the two anymore. There is a small chance that I may end up eating crow, but honestly with the amount of effort and bad luck I’ve had with this thing, it’s made me much better at dealing with the stupidity I face on a daily basis. It’s nice to be able to stop contractors, architects, and plan reviewers mid-sentence with code provisions quoted like scripture when they are talking nonsense or telling me “I’ve been doing this for 30 years,” “I want to hang this dangly thing 72.45 feet out there at a 43.6259 degree angle,” or “I’m rejecting your permit for ...,” respective of the disciplines above. Architects and their dangly things at odd angles. Man, I swear this industry is going to kill me. Like I said, I just like to talk. Sometimes I get all bent out of shape when my donut level gets low. Nothing a trip to Krispy kreme can’t fix.

I can’t wait for the new Avengers movie either. It’s going to be better than sex. I know this because I’ll at least get to see Avengers!

Maybe all that studying and exam failures are worth it in the end? 

Maybe, just maybe... by developing such a horribly written, poorly graded, asinine exam, it was the intention of NCEES all along to have each one of us delve deeper into our inner selves - to find meaning in our endeavors, and to persevere when grasped betwixt the jaws of defeat by a contractor who's done this for 30 years?

Naaahhh. Failures = mo $$.