VW Gate

[Road Guy]

So what did they actually do? On purpose make the emissions sensors not read correctly or something?

Unsure why they would exend so much energy to violate the standards verus just doing it right? Id like to see the internal risk memo on that one..

of course they are Krauts so they will just say " we were only following orders".....

 

[engineergurl]

Supposedly, they had software that would enable the emission reduction stuff if it was hooked up to a sensor, then it would turn it off once the sensor for the test was unplugged. Which means the car was fully capable of meeting the emission standards, they just turned the feature off? I don't know exactly how much modern cars have beyond a catalytic converter but the whole thing was a pretty silly if you ask me. I suspect that it was to improve the over all gas mileage of the vehicle because that's really the only benefit I know you may get.

 

[Ship Wreck PE]

They got government green subsidies if cars could make the emissions test.

 

[Supe]

So what did they actually do? On purpose make the emissions sensors not read correctly or something?

Unsure why they would exend so much energy to violate the standards verus just doing it right? Id like to see the internal risk memo on that one..

of course they are Krauts so they will just say " we were only following orders".....

So it was more than just sensor detection. I could actually sense when it was being tested based on a combination of inputs, including dynamometer testing where the front wheels were turning/under load with the rear wheels stationary. Pretty clever stuff.

They violated it for a number of reasons. Meeting the emissions standards meant a reduction in both performance and fuel economy. Ignoring those standards significantly picked up their NOX emissions, but allowed them to have performance/fuel economy numbers which bested those of their in class competitors (BMW/Mercedes diesels primarily in the US.) Keep in mind, the VW references here also include Audi US diesel models, which are under the VW umbrella.

We don't have hard numbers yet, but the difference between the full emissions tune and the normal operating tune can be significant based on the amount of necking back it takes to meet NOX output requirements, compared to the European versions, whose clean diesels only have to meet CO2 emissions criteria.

Through a combination of MPG performance and a sub X level of NOX emissions, they were eligible for over $51M in Federal subsidies for meeting and exceeding emissions standards.

Long story short, VW is really F'd.

• Clean Air Act allows the US Gov't to fine them over $37K per vehicle. This means that VW can take an initial hit of about $18B from the US Gov't up front. That's $6B more than VW's profit for a full year of production.
  
• That $18B does not include any fines/suits from the IRS over the $51M in fraudulent subsidies and associated interest.
  
• If the VW fix to the ECU reduces fuel economy or performance, lawsuits against VW can result in a credit or buyback of those vehicles. Figure the cost of those vehicles, and some percentage of 482,000 cars. This may be driven largely by how CARB/individual states respond to emissions. Rumor is that California may refuse to pass any VW diesel that has not had the ECU reflashed to meet the proper emissions standards.
  
• VW currently has their 2016 diesel models on hold accordingly, so the dealerships are getting ready to take a nasty hit. They have several billion dollars allotted already just to address dealership woes.
  

 

[engineergurl]

I guess I wasn't too far off even with out the technical knowledge Supe has, lol

 

[Road Guy]

Yeah that's complicated,I wonder if they also had involvement in the holograms that took down the World Trade Center

 

[Supe]

I heard it was OZ Engineer that discovered it all.

 

[snickerd3]

The act may allow $37K per car, but they will likely not end up paying that much and settling at a fraction of that fine. Sometimes I wish fed and state stuck to their guns about that sort of thing, but lawyers get involved and the numbers come down drastically

 

[Supe]

Even if they don't, their total damages based on individual and class action suits, plus the IRS will total way over that $18B before factoring in lost sales due to public image.

 

[MetsFan]

I'm just glad I don't own any VW stock.

 

[Supe]

No kidding. 25% hit in a single day.

 

[jglavin PE]

I own one of these cars (2013 Jetta). I remember when I was at the dealer, I thought it was kinda fishy that the Passat with the 2.0 TDI has an SCR (urea injection) system while the Golf and Jetta don't. I asked the salesman, and he gave me a typical salesman answer of "oh, the clever engineers over at VW were able to design the engine to pass emissions without needing it" or something along those lines.

While I'm all for being green and everything, I bought the car for the performance and fuel economy, as I think many did. If their solution can't address the emissions while maintaining performance and mileage, a large segment of technically inclined owners will look to aftermarket tunes, and just retune back to "stock" on testing day, effectively redoing what VW did in the first place.

The responsible fix for VW is to find a way to fix emissions and maintain performance, even if it means retrofitting SCR on all the vehicles.

 

[snickerd3]

Would this incident stop you from buying a VW in the future? Other than the initial financial hit, i think people that buy VW are still going to buy VW.

 

[jglavin PE]

So it was more than just sensor detection. I could actually sense when it was being tested based on a combination of inputs, including dynamometer testing where the front wheels were turning/under load with the rear wheels stationary. Pretty clever stuff.

Maybe that explains why they won't bring the Golf Wagon with AWD and TDI to the States.

 

[jglavin PE]

Would this incident stop you from buying a VW in the future? Other than the initial financial hit, i think people that buy VW are still going to buy VW.

I'm not exactly a diehard fan but when we compared my car against the competition it won out on fuel economy specs while being subjectively more fun to drive than the other comparable cars. If they can't compete like that without cheating I guess I'd go elsewhere.

 

[Dexman PE PMP]

I avoid German cars for their stupid high maintenance costs. The 2006 Jetta I had would cost more for an oil change (little 2.5L 5 cylinder ~$200) than my Camaro (6.2L V8 ~$120).

 

[Ship Wreck PE]

That's an expensive oil change??^^^

 

[MetsFan]

I avoid German cars for their stupid high maintenance costs. The 2006 Jetta I had would cost more for an oil change (little 2.5L 5 cylinder ~$200) than my Camaro (6.2L V8 ~$120).

$200 for an oil change? What the hell kind of oil were they using?

I own a Touareg V6, non TDI, so this doesn't really affect me. I would probably still get an Audi as my next car, or a Cayman as my midlife crisis car.

 

[engineergurl]

I avoid German cars for their stupid high maintenance costs. The 2006 Jetta I had would cost more for an oil change (little 2.5L 5 cylinder ~$200) than my Camaro (6.2L V8 ~$120).

$200 for an oil change? What the hell kind of oil were they using?

VW has their own oil or something if I remember right, when we got rid of the passat we had I gave a jug of the stuff that had a bug

 

[MetsFan]

I used to take our 2002 Jetta to Valvoline and get an oil change for $40. I think the max we paid was $70 for their high mileage/half synthetic stuff. I haven't had to pay for an oil change on the Touareg yet, so I'll find out soon enough I guess.